Hi, new poster here--I looked for a thread similar to my query and couldn't find anything quite the same, so I hope I am not reiterating something that has been asked before. Anyhow, my question is about PsyD programs on the west coast. Can anyone recommend programs in the northwest or California? I am looking for a solid (maybe well known, but certainly with good match rates) program with good faculty attention and money is a bit of a concern so funding would be nice. I was looking at PGSP/Stanford but the price concerns me--would it be worth it? Pacific U also looked like an interesting program but I have heard not so great things about faculty attention/class size. Any suggestions? Thanks!
West Coast PsyD Schools
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Yeah, these are good ones.
I don't know of any PsyD programs in CA or the northwest that offer decent funding and have good match rates. In fact, there are only 2 PsyD programs in the entire country that many psychologists will consistently recommend (Baylor and Rutgers) because they have good training, solid outcomes (high licensure and very high EPPP), good match rates, very low acceptance (5% or less), research opportunities and funding (although only Baylor has guaranteed funding for all years). I have not seen another PsyD program of this caliber based on these factors.
PGSP-Stanford program has been written about extensively on this forum. Do a search. Bottomline, most of the psychologists on this forum will inform you to stay away from professional programs (including PGSP) due to cost. It is not financially sound or reasonable to take out anywhere near 150k in loans in this profession, and many of these programs will cost more with living expenses. The last time I checked Pacific University does not have good APA internship match rates and is very expensive. What you will find is that the programs with excellent outcomes also tend to have good funding in our field.
If you want a solid and higher paying job in our field (VA psychologist position, medical school like UCLA/Stanford etc) you are more likely to get there from those fully funded PhD programs that jon snow mentioned than from any PsyD program. I would imagine that the graduates of Baylor/Rutgers also have very good employment prospects.
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First off, I want to thank you both for replying and giving me your opinion. I really do appreciate hearing from people who have real experience in the field I am interested in. I have been reading the forum and what people are saying about PGSP/Stanford--I guess I was hoping someone might have had a positive experience to share before I wrote it off. The thing is, I know it is easier to get funding for PhD programs and that there are more options if I choose that track; I just thought the PsyD was a better fit. I don't think I have a great deal of interest in doing extensive research and was very attracted by the practical aspect of the PsyD degree. Are there really only two or three schools that are worth applying to? And, I suppose additionally (I would like to hear from you all since you are the ones with first hand knowledge), if I go for the PhD instead, will it be overly research oriented or can I focus on patient practice?
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Two thoughts in response to what you wrote: first off, you will likely find at least someone from most schools who has had good outcomes and can talk positively about their school. The problem is, that person may be in the minority, and there's no good way to tell. I would really recommend looking at more objective numbers such as the average debt of a program, the APA internship match rate for the past several years, and the EPPP pass rate instead of looking for at least one person to say something nice about a program.
Second, PhD programs do vary in their research focus. Even a pretty highly research focused program like the one I attended still has quite a clinical focus--why? We all need to go to a clinical internship in order to get our degrees. And there are plenty of schools that put much less of an emphasis on research--just check out the program ratings from a recent copy of "The Insider's Guide to Clinical and Counseling Programs in Psychology". That book has a rating system for how much of a research or clinical focus a program has. Consider PhD programs that lean toward the clinical side. Finally, what's interesting is that when you compare PhDs and PsyDs, contrary to expectations, folks from PhD programs have on average more clinical hours than PsyD students when they apply for internship. I imagine it's likely because PhD students can afford to take an extra year before applying and gain more experience because they aren't paying out the nose for their education.
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Man, there is this vast misconception about Ph.D. programs and research. It's not like all you do is a crap ton of research and never see patients. My clinical hours dwarfed the averages of most Psy.D programs when I applied for internship. Plus, you should have a solid understanding of research to understand the treatments that you are administering, or the assessments that you are performing.
Bottom-line, have a conversation with someone who is late in the grad school process at a Ph.D program. You'll find that it is most likely MUCH different than your conception, unless it's one of the really heavy research programs, which are not the norm.
Bottom-line, have a conversation with someone who is late in the grad school process at a Ph.D program. You'll find that it is most likely MUCH different than your conception, unless it's one of the really heavy research programs, which are not the norm.
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There are (too) many programs in California, but most of them are not very good. Pretty much any of the programs in the UC system will be a safe bet, though they vary in their foci and research expectations so you'll have to really do some digging to find the right mix of training. Unless you want to come out with $200k+ in debt, you should only consider fully-funded university based programs with APA-acred. match rates of at least 85% each year.
Indeed.
Here is one thread that talks about some of the differences (and similarities): Ph.D. v. Psy.D. Comparison.
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University of Utah is NOT very balanced. I am not sure why the guide rates it as such, but it is increasingly becoming a more research-focused program. In fact, they are in the process of applying for APCS accreditation to be officially recognized as a clinical science program. I wouldn't recommend applying there if you are not interested in extensive research.
If you strictly want to do clinical work, maybe you might also do some research on MA level terminal degrees. I obtained my MA/MFT in CA and could practice in a number of settings (even in the VA I have seen postings for MFTs). However, I wanted to open myself up to academia and do neuro/rehab work so I obtained a Ph.D.
There are a number of clinically based Ph.D. programs here in near NYC such as CUNY and Adelphi since their model is scholar-practitioner. However, these programs are also probably the most psychoanalytically oriented (and I mean couch work and dream interpretation stuff, at least a few years ago). CUNY is a public school so tuition is very cheap compared to private schools once you establish residency.
My Ph.D. program was very flexible with my clinical work. As long as I passed my classes and performed my research duties, I was allowed to take on a 'part-time' externship in addition to the standard externship. I did this to gain clinical experience and beef up my APPIC application.
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I'm at a clinical PhD program and a lot of people don't do any research beyond the thesis and dissertation.
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What's this? Another typically nauseating thread, shot through with lame attempts at the university PhD academia types at managing dissonance. A personal favorite is the quick shift from the idea that research is so important, to the confession that few bother with it after school. And anyway PhDs do clinical stuff, too! What a hoot.
To the OP, there are problems in the California PsyD scene. The APA has been pretty rigorous in addressing them. I'd suggest you pay attention to which schools remain accredited, but you'll soon find out that there is great debate as to the validity of the APA's mission in this regard (eek, a source for more dissonance!).
To the OP, there are problems in the California PsyD scene. The APA has been pretty rigorous in addressing them. I'd suggest you pay attention to which schools remain accredited, but you'll soon find out that there is great debate as to the validity of the APA's mission in this regard (eek, a source for more dissonance!).
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Yea....I've been meaning to ask you what planet you live on?!
And no, no one said that most don't bother with it. That was one specific school she was referring to. It is quite obvious that vast majority of Ph.ds DO do much beyond that...as one should during graduate school.
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How?
If anything, CA seems to be the elephant in the room when it comes to the internship crisis. CAPIC has gained traction and they are now providing an alternative (though far from equal) training path for the massive supply-side demands created by too many questionable programs that call CA home.
And you are not managing dissonance as a PsyD student from a professional school? I have no issues with good PsyD programs and recommend them to students.
And If you look at the data from APPIC, the average PhD student actually has more clinical hours than the average PsyD student.
Anyhow, I am confused by your statement that the APA has been rigorous in addressing the California PsyD situation. Where is your evidence? As of now, there are programs that continue to be accredited despite low licensure rates, low EPPP pass rates, large class sizes, no admission standards, 10% or less APA match rates , and students who are drowning in debt (150-250K average debt levels). The standards cannot possibly be lower in many of the professional school programs, especially the argosy and alliant situation. CAPIC is tragic. They offer unpaid and barely paid internships and postdocs with mostly loose standards. They may actually be violating federal labor laws by having students/graduates working 40-50 hours per week in an unpaid role. Not all the internships are unpaid, but many are unpaid and many others have ridiculously low stipends (3,000-5,000 range).
Anyone who cares about protecting consumers and is against the unethical treatment of graduate students cannot possibly support the mission of many of these professional schools in CA. If you are paying 150K for a program with questionable outcomes/long-term career potential, then you have the most dissonance to manage.
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I saw on the APPIC website and the APAGS internship workbook a statement that said "A program that has been accredited by the APA or CPA has meet the possible highest training standards." That strikes me as somewhat strange--APA, sure, but CPA?
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CPA = "America's Top Hat"/Canada not The People's Republic of California.
Thanks again everyone who has responded. Obviously, I am beginning the process and since my advisor retired I have been a little lost in the shuffle, so I am happy to hear disparate advice from people in the field. I am sure I do have misconceptions when it comes to the PhD program (of course, we don't put these ideas into our head ourselves; in fact, it was another faculty member who steered me toward the PsyD program since academia/research didn't overly interest me), so if anyone does have the name or link to the guide Jon Snow mentioned that rates programs based on research vs practice, I'd appreciate it if you could send it to me. Thanks for the link to the other thread, as well, Therapist4Chnge.
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Ohhh wow. I feel dumb. Thanks for pointing that out!
So apparently CAPIC is actually the name of the organization. I thought CPA was California Psychological Association and then CAPIC was the internship system (like APPIC).
Edit: Japangea, I believe that if you search old threads there is one in which people list more balanced or clinically-oriented PhD programs.
Double edit: Found it - http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=654660
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Seriously though...get the Insider's Guide book or borrow it from your campus library if you haven't already. It's chock full of good information including the rating system of how research versus clinically-focused programs are.
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Yeah, I believe the full title is "Insider's Guide to Graduate Programs in Clinical and Counseling Psychology."
I've never used it myself, but have heard good things. However, as another poster alluded to, keep in mind that the information isn't necessarily always correct or up to date, particularly with respect to how research-oriented a program truly is. It can provide a great starting point, though, and I believe lists the research/clinical interests of faculty (although again, some of that might change before the Guide has a chance to update their info).
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California is saturated with mental health professionals and I cannot really recommend any of the PsyD or professional PhD programs here. I for one can attest that we take these students on for practicums but rarely do any of them cross over to the competitive internships/fellowships/jobs.
Exactly what i've seen happening at several VA hospitals out here. Maybe the top 1% who are really talented or lucky end up getting in. At state association events, I regularly meet professional school grads without any postdoc or decently paid employment. They are trying to get their hours working in a private practice and many are taking 3-4 years to get hours this way and have only 5-10 patients. They are earning poverty wages. I've met psyc assistants who are under a 30-70 arrangement (they are only getting 30% of the fee). In California, you cannot advertise to get patients yourself as a psychological assistant so if your supervisor is not actively getting you patients, you are pretty much screwed. This is why the loan default rates are high at professional schools.
