What a stupid idea

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surgery2121

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Actually, it's worse than capitation. Capitation was a legal agreement entered into willingly; this is a legislatively forced financial risk transferrence from consumer to provider with no guaranteed payment outcome. This amounts to indentured servitude -- no protection from predatory bottom dwellers, no way to recuperate costs, and then the paltry payments would be tied to patient "satisfaction". My job will be OK -- most of my patients are happy older folks, but God help anyone dealing with the boomers or younger who are never, ever satisfied or happy....

I cannot f'ing believe that they are going to destroy this profession so willingly. Anyone who treats a member of Congress or the White House team is in direct violation of the Hippocratic Oath.

Primum non sincere.
 
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Indeed foolish that they would place the responsibility of determining what is most economically desirable on the backs of physicians who are not trained in accounting or economics.
 
I joined a little bit ago and I figured I might as well post at least once.
I can not believe "alternatives" like this are seriously being considered. They are essentially turning doctors into mini-insurance companies. What are we going to do, move in with the patient and force him to take his meds? Given this little thing called "patient autonomy" and the inherent uncertainity in medicine , this plan, like capitation, is going to drive physicians even more into a corner.
 
Obviously something like this is bad for doctors but its even worse for patients. Instead of being overtreated they will be undertreated. There is no perfect healthcare system. Healthcare will always be expensive and we just need to learn to pay for it. What we have now is the closest to the best.
 
Healthcare on a budget that holds the provider liable for over costs is just plain crazy. There are too many factors that can play into the costs of healthcare that are out of control of physicians. Working in an ER, my experience is that very few patients are compliant with their meds, diets, proper follow-ups and general lifestyle choices.

Toq
 
Obviously something like this is bad for doctors but its even worse for patients. Instead of being overtreated they will be undertreated. There is no perfect healthcare system. Healthcare will always be expensive and we just need to learn to pay for it. What we have now is the closest to the best.


It's no longer economically feasible to "just need to learn to pay for it". I'm not wild about this particular plan without learning quite a bit more about it. But make no mistake, the impetus behind this is not going away. It all goes back to 6.9%, and this year, I think predictions are 7.4%. It cannot continue. It's really that simple. NOW, fixing it.....that's not so simple.
 
It's no longer economically feasible to "just need to learn to pay for it". I'm not wild about this particular plan without learning quite a bit more about it. But make no mistake, the impetus behind this is not going away. It all goes back to 6.9%, and this year, I think predictions are 7.4%. It cannot continue. It's really that simple. NOW, fixing it.....that's not so simple.

physasst,

Same argument has been made for decades, actually -- look at healthcare inflation during the 60's (following the hallowed MC inception), 70's, and 80's -- when it was often low double digits. 6% does not sound so bad when viewed in historical context and considering the demographic shifts in the population.

http://hadm.sph.sc.edu/COURSES/Econ/Classes/nhe00/

So everyone wants to pay less for healthcare -- we all get that. Here's another keenly astute observation -- everyone wants to pay less for everything, by the way. Want cheaper healthcare? Make it cheaper to provide, accept lesser treatments (and probably lesser providers), and everything else that goes along with it. If the society at large agrees to these terms, then so be it -- but to want all and have someone else pay for it is not a sustainable course either.

... and this risk/cost transferrance is unacceptable no matter how you look at it. The discussions have gotten to the point where I hope physicians unionize and throw some weight behind their side of the discussion.
 
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"The more defects you prevent, the more money you make," says Francois de Brantes, the health-payment-reform guru who coordinates Prometheus. "The fact that anybody has a leg amputated for diabetes" — something that's preventable with proper treatment — "is revolting, so you make that a financial blemish."

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Yes, all the hardcore diabetics that need leg amputations... at least 99% of the ones I see it's totally their doctors fault. Why, hardly any of them even had their doctors come to their house 3 times a day to measure blood glucose and administer insulin! I sure can't think of any better example to illustrate patient outcomes being correlated to physician quality rather than patient compliance!

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Holy **** this is the end of medicine.
 
physasst,

Same argument has been made for decades, actually -- look at healthcare inflation during the 60's (following the hallowed MC inception), 70's, and 80's -- when it was often low double digits. 6% does not sound so bad when viewed in historical context and considering the demographic shifts in the population.

http://hadm.sph.sc.edu/COURSES/Econ/Classes/nhe00/

So everyone wants to pay less for healthcare -- we all get that. Here's another keenly astute observation -- everyone wants to pay less for everything, by the way. Want cheaper healthcare? Make it cheaper to provide, accept lesser treatments (and probably lesser providers), and everything else that goes along with it. If the society at large agrees to these terms, then so be it -- but to want all and have someone else pay for it is not a sustainable course either.

... and this risk/cost transferrance is unacceptable no matter how you look at it. The discussions have gotten to the point where I hope physicians unionize and throw some weight behind their side of the discussion.

But it's not simply the increase per annum. It's the total of increases over time. As Zeke points out in his book, today, medicare and medicaid consume 22.9% of all federal dollars, but by 2017, it will be 33%. And at current spending, Medicaid and Medicare together will consume ALL federal tax income at current rates by the year 2050, by 2080, Medicare alone will consume more than the sum total of all federal tax dollars levied. And this is likely inaccurate, as these numbers were calculated by the CBO using a predicted increase in medical spending of only 4.1%, while history has shown a higher annual increase on average.

Also, if you want to look historically, in 1966, the first year of Medicare, only 19 million Americans were covered, at a cost of 3.3 billion, or as a more accurate economic measurement, only 0.4% of GDP. Conversely, in 2006, we provided care to 43 million Americans for about 400 billion, or approximately 3.1% of GDP, and in 2030, 20% of the population, or 79 million people will be on Medicare rolls, and consume 6.5% of GDP, or 1 of every 15 dollars in taxes.

If the economy was elastic enough to continually expand, and our GDP would grow at rates similar to healthcare, we wouldn't even need to have this discussion. But it is not, in fact we are still in a period of contractility. And, when it is consuming an ever larger percentage of GDP every year, and is starting to threaten businesses (see my small business thread), and the very stability of long term fiscal growth, and federal budgetary management, then some solutions need to be found.

As I said, without learning MORE about Prometheus, I would not necessarily be crazy about it, but I think as a "concept" it might be a move in the right direction. I would need a lot more information to completely support it however. But as a general concept, it fits with my promotion of the "Pay for Value" concept that is one of our cornerstones at the Health Policy Center.

Thanks for the link btw. Good read.
 
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The problems faced today are twofold:

Government intervention in the 60's seriously f'ed with the balances that were, and would otherwise, have been stricken over time.

and

Government was too stupid to index enrollment age and benefit levels accordingly.

Distilled down to its very base -- politicians intervened in a system without an understanding of the system... and allowed political agenda to direct the structure and course. They will now respond with more of the same. Nowhere have you heard explicitly mentioned (by the jackass party, anyway) the ultimate need of rationing in this system.
 
There's a pretty simple solution to this. Go into a specialty/ live in an area with high demand for your services. Make sure to be in private practice. Fire from your practice/ refuse to take on any noncompliant, obese, unhappy, or nicotine-addicted patients.

Sample conversations:

Doctor: OK Mr. Smith, have you taken your blood pressure pills every day?
Mr. Smith: Well not every day.
Doctor: OK, bye.

Doctor: You are a bit overweight. If you don't lose 15 pounds by next month you are GONE.

Patient: I don't feel you're giving me the best care possible.
Doctor: Well now you'll be getting no care. Hasta la vista.


I'm being a bit over the top of course, but I do think that such a plan could lead to doctors being very selective about who they want to take on and treat.
 
There's a pretty simple solution to this. Go into a specialty/ live in an area with high demand for your services. Make sure to be in private practice. Fire from your practice/ refuse to take on any noncompliant, obese, unhappy, or nicotine-addicted patients.

Sample conversations:

Doctor: OK Mr. Smith, have you taken your blood pressure pills every day?
Mr. Smith: Well not every day.
Doctor: OK, bye.

Doctor: You are a bit overweight. If you don't lose 15 pounds by next month you are GONE.

Patient: I don't feel you're giving me the best care possible.
Doctor: Well now you'll be getting no care. Hasta la vista.


I'm being a bit over the top of course, but I do think that such a plan could lead to doctors being very selective about who they want to take on and treat.

If something like this happens, I think it will be the end of healthcare. It is insane that nothing is being done about ambulance chasers and that many of the root problems are not being addressed. Malpractice caps are not being considered, which would likely reduce healthcare costs if doctors didn't have to practice defensive medicine. Why not make med school free so that graduating med students don't have thousands of dollars to pay back after graduation?

It's also insane that the consideration that a doctor would have to pay out of pocket for giving too much service, whatever that means. I guess if the patient is really sick and they need more healthcare, the doctor would be like, sorry Mr Jones, you've exceeded your coverage. I guess we can't treat that PE you now have. It's crazy!

How can this administration even propose such a change as this? With all the schooling/training that doctors have, why try to hack into their well deserved salaries?

Doctors should unionize and demand better. This is not to mention that if something like this happens, more and more doctors will go into private practice and fewer and fewer people will go to med school, which will make the shortage even worse.
 
This is exactly what is happening in some European countries.....there is a lack of capable/high achieving/ individuals applying to medical school and for example in Spain they have to import physicians that do NOT speak Spanish WTF?
 
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