What age or age range do ADCOMs prefer? Bluntly, does being "old" help one get into medical school?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Gauss44

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2012
Messages
3,185
Reaction score
416
Do you think ADCOMs prefer candidates who are 25, 30, 35, 40, or 45, if they all have equally good applications for their age (in other words, let's say they all had a steady stream of great accomplishments, no gaps, no "lazy" periods)?

I ask because I have multiple older students (older than 28), who think they are at a disadvantage. I suspect the opposite, but have little evidence.
 
I suspect the borderline nontrads, those in their late 20s and early 30s who have been on the planet long enough to have some cool experiences but not so old to face any age discrimination are the ones with most advantage.

lol @ "borderline," I'm the 3rd or 4th oldest in my class of 150+ at 32.

but yes, what L2D said.
 
It's rare to find a mature 22 year old. Even the ones that think they are look back later and realize that they were... Less so than they thought. There's certainly exceptions, but there aren't many.
Pretty sure 25 year olds feel the same at 30. 30 year olds feel the same at 35. Etc. etc. etc.
 
Maturity>Age.

Very hard to evaluate maturity of thousands of applicants. Easy to check their age. There is certainly some correlation between age and maturity even though its an imperfect standard. So the latter becomes the imperfect proxy.
 
Pretty sure 25 year olds feel the same at 30. 30 year olds feel the same at 35. Etc. etc. etc.

you are assuming people do not change over time.


What is with people in this country giving in to this stupid concept of extended childhood...

it is not about extended childhood. It is about equal opportunity in education and work place.

do you know age discrimination in education and workplace is illegal ??

If the person is qualified and competitive for jobs or schools, you can stop them because they are old. Unless their ages interfere with their functioning for the jobs or schools, you cannot use age as a factor in the selection process.

However, I am under no illusion that age discrimination does not exist. In fact, it is alive and well in all places.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...aduates-at-age-61.140488/page-2#post-16171622

wait until you are getting older and facing age discrimination. I bet you will be singing a different tune by then.


regarding the original question, what age range adcoms prefer ?? I am not an adcom so I cannot answer but I suspect no one from adcoms will state a number or range here because that will slap them w lawsuits so fast that their heads would spin 🙂

because age discrimination does exist, I think being old does not help much for your admission to med school, esp the ones over 40s. Like @Law2Doc said above, prob the age range from late 20s to early 30s would be the one who do not face much discrimination yet and/or have a little advantage over the younger peers and older peers.
 
Last edited:
@oldstock

I'm pretty sure the my first quote above stated that I was saying that people are constantly changing and growing, but I'm glad you decided to mystically interpret it backwards.

And you also got my second quote wrong. You're on fire. Congrats!
 
@oldstock

I'm pretty sure the my first quote above stated that I was saying that people are constantly changing and growing, but I'm glad you decided to mystically interpret it backwards.

And you also got my second quote wrong. You're on fire. Congrats!

lol 🙂

but feel free to correct me. If I got you wrong, I would have no problem to apologize.


so you might have been sarcastic in your saying. Can you clarify for me ?? It is hard for me to guess though. Thanks.


Edit: I am taking your words for it and assuming I got you wrong. My apology.
 
lol 🙂

but feel free to correct me. If I got you wrong, I would have no problem to apologize.


so you might have been sarcastic in your saying. Can you clarify for me ?? It is hard for me to guess though. Thanks.


Edit: I am taking your words for it and assuming I got you wrong. My apology.

Apologies for the extreme snark in my earlier comment as well.

When I said you think the same when you go to 30 from 25, etc, I was saying that one looks back on the past few years and thinks to oneself "wow, I've learned/changed so much in the last few years", I think I concur with others that there's less off it when you reach a certain stage though. So I was actually saying exactly what you were!

Re: the extended childhood. I've written about this year before, but I think we baby people in their late teens and 20's and expect less from them than would have been expected a few decades ago. It's like delayed maturity and the expectation of that. Sure it's really applicable for some people, but not for everyone. I guess this is why things are holistic.
 
Apologies for the extreme snark in my earlier comment as well.

When I said you think the same when you go to 30 from 25, etc, I was saying that one looks back on the past few years and thinks to oneself "wow, I've learned/changed so much in the last few years", I think I concur with others that there's less off it when you reach a certain stage though. So I was actually saying exactly what you were!

Re: the extended childhood. I've written about this year before, but I think we baby people in their late teens and 20's and expect less from them than would have been expected a few decades ago. It's like delayed maturity and the expectation of that. Sure it's really applicable for some people, but not for everyone. I guess this is why things are holistic.

no problem 🙂

thanks for the clarification.

One thing I would like to say is that there is still a lot of injustice and discrimination in the med school admission process. Holistic sounds great, but I wish to see more transparent and objective standards/metrics in admission so that would minimize or eliminate most of adcom's personal biases to ensure equal opportunity and a fair admission process for all. Adcoms are people too so they are just as susceptible to biases as anyone based on their own cultures and personal backgrounds.
 
I concur with L2D, speaking from personal experience. I applied this cycle and was more successful than I would have predicted. I'm 30<x<35. My secret (wink, wink): looking young enough to blend in with all the traditional applicants when in suits and having the energy and enthusiasm such that no one would even think about my age as a potential liability, coupled with the maturity to speak like a colleague to interviewers and be able to handle difficult questions with honesty and self-reflection.

For me, the age/maturity (they did correlate for me) really proved a strength during interviews. I had a very successful rate of conversion from interview to acceptance. I think that was because I was able to effectively talk about myself and why medicine now. I was able to use my life experience to strengthen my argument.

Just my $0.02. If they really want to go to med school, go for it!
 
I concur with L2D, speaking from personal experience. I applied this cycle and was more successful than I would have predicted. I'm 30<x<35. My secret (wink, wink): looking young enough to blend in with all the traditional applicants when in suits and having the energy and enthusiasm such that no one would even think about my age as a potential liability, coupled with the maturity to speak like a colleague to interviewers and be able to handle difficult questions with honesty and self-reflection.

For me, the age/maturity (they did correlate for me) really proved a strength during interviews. I had a very successful rate of conversion from interview to acceptance. I think that was because I was able to effectively talk about myself and why medicine now. I was able to use my life experience to strengthen my argument.

Just my $0.02. If they really want to go to med school, go for it!

Sounds like a bad idea imho.
"Over familiarity" is a phrase that LizzyM has used. I have a feeling I'm reading too much into your comment though as I know you're not that naive lol.
 
Sounds like a bad idea imho.
"Over familiarity" is a phrase that LizzyM has used. I have a feeling I'm reading too much into your comment though as I know you're not that naive lol.

Haha, thanks for the disclaimer, RTC. You're right and I'll clarify just in case. I was definitely not overly familiar. Like you, I've also worked in healthcare with docs and the like. Your colleagues are different from your friends, even though some of your colleagues may be friends. I guess my point is that I was professional and respectful (of course), but I also spoke from the POV of someone who has worked in healthcare. Not know-it-all, but represented what I had learned from my experiences and how that inspired me to pursue med school. It was a very different approach than what I would have been like years ago w/o that healthcare experience. Before I would have been a lot more intimidated, meek, and naive. I felt a lot more confident because I'm familiar with the good and bad of medicine, and I still want to pursue medicine.

Better? 😉
 
The average age at my school is 25. Adcoms like maturity, and all things considered, your odds are perhaps even somewhat better than the 23 YO who never had a job if you are 28, 32, etc and have lived life.
I'm in the upper group at my school, and we all tend to do well on exams, give a strong and stable presence to the school and get along well with faculty. It's my opinion that all scores and grades being equal, between 26-33 is a prime age that you area a great candidate and schools are very interested in you.
 
It's my opinion that all scores and grades being equal, between 26-33 is a prime age that you area a great candidate and schools are very interested in you.
Agree that mid 20s to early 30s is the sweet spot where being a nontrad is mainly a help to your cause without being a hindrance. Basically, if you're in the 20-35 age range, your age won't be an issue. Candidates who are younger than traditional age or who are beyond their mid 30s are likely to raise some eyebrows. Many candidates who are over age 40 should expect to meet some significant resistance, especially those whose academic records aren't the greatest.
 
...especially those whose academic records aren't the greatest.

I think this caveat is a problem at any age. If anything the much older nontrad can more effective replace older weak grades with new high ones because he can play the whole "I was young and foolish" card and disavow the remote stuff that someone who finished college less than five years ago couldn't.
 
I think this caveat is a problem at any age. If anything the much older nontrad can more effective replace older weak grades with new high ones because he can play the whole "I was young and foolish" card and disavow the remote stuff that someone who finished college less than five years ago couldn't.
Up to a point, definitely. But for the older nontrad, a so-so record just gives the biased adcom a solid objective reason to cite for their subjective belief that the candidate is too old.
 
Agree that mid 20s to early 30s is the sweet spot where being a nontrad is mainly a help to your cause without being a hindrance. Basically, if you're in the 20-35 age range, your age won't be an issue. Candidates who are younger than traditional age or who are beyond their mid 30s are likely to raise some eyebrows. Many candidates who are over age 40 should expect to meet some significant resistance, especially those whose academic records aren't the greatest.

I think this caveat is a problem at any age. If anything the much older nontrad can more effective replace older weak grades with new high ones because he can play the whole "I was young and foolish" card and disavow the remote stuff that someone who finished college less than five years ago couldn't.

@Law2Doc : excellent point !! 👍👍



Up to a point, definitely. But for the older nontrad, a so-so record just gives the biased adcom a solid objective reason to cite for their subjective belief that the candidate is too old.

In your opinion, what is a so-so record for a traditional age student (20 - 35) and what is a so-so record for an older candidate (age 35+) ??

I would like to point out that biased adcoms might use a double standard to treat traditional age students vs older students. For traditional students, a so-so record might mean 3.0s GPA and less than 30 MCAT. But for older students, for an example, it might mean a 3.5 GPA and 30+ MCAT.


I agree w @Law2Doc that regardless of age, it is difficult for those whose academic records are not the greatest or "so-so" anyway.

Legally speaking, I do not think med school adcoms can cite age as the deciding factor in the selection process unless the age of the candidate directly interfere which the ability of the students to perform in med school. In reality, I know that age discrimination, esp. for older candidates, is alive and well and no adcom would admit it publicly as age discrimination is illegal in education and work. But I would expect biased adcoms would take full advantage of the "holistic" approach to use as an excuse and cite a whole range of reasons other than age to say that the "whole package" of an older candidate is less than that of a traditional age student. That is why I always wish to see a transparent admission process which is based on objective metrics or standards.

In my experience, I have seen friends that encountered this age discrimination in school and work place enough to assume that, like a Caribbean med school grad trying to obtain a US residency, an older student's application and stats have to be way superior than those of a typical traditional age student's application. In another word, because of age bias and discrimination, it is way harder for older students to gain acceptance to med schools.

For those older students who have been successful at this game, big congrats and please come back and share your experience !! 👍👍
 
I don't think a model of discrimination is really accurate or appropriate. Or even prosecutable. As Q says the subjective can easily pass for the discriminatory and vice versa. An impeccable record in a fit, energetic older person is going to be likely successful in any case, up to a point.

If I don't get hired at a construction site because I can't swing a framing hammer as fast as I used to and my knees are shot....nobody bats an eye. If I don't make the cut at training camp because I've lost a step and I have to take my hulking frame and overly concussed brain back home to work with my father in law's insurance company and get called stupid for not remembering basic stuff...nobody cares. If I don't make the cut for special forces assignment because I lack the physical endurance...that's just what's up son.

But suddenly...a bunch of intelligent, successful, career changers are looking at being passed over for nebulous reasons possibly related to age and now it's a travesty of tragic proportions. In perhaps, the only country in the world that would ever consider even looking at old @ss medical students as candidates.

Let's keep some perspective, we're lucky to be having this conversation. Stuff gets harder as you get older. If you don't outfox your competition you fall by the wayside.

This is just called Mother Nature.
 
I don't think a model of discrimination is really accurate or appropriate. Or even prosecutable. As Q says the subjective can easily pass for the discriminatory and vice versa. An impeccable record in a fit, energetic older person is going to be likely successful in any case, up to a point.

agreed w what you are saying here.


If I don't get hired at a construction site because I can't swing a framing hammer as fast as I used to and my knees are shot....nobody bats an eye. If I don't make the cut at training camp because I've lost a step and I have to take my hulking frame and overly concussed brain back home to work with my father in law's insurance company and get called stupid for not remembering basic stuff...nobody cares. If I don't make the cut for special forces assignment because I lack the physical endurance...that's just what's up son.

by laws, age can be used as a factor in selection process if age interferes w the ability of the person to perform the job, which is happening in these examples that you are citing here.


But suddenly...a bunch of intelligent, successful, career changers are looking at being passed over for nebulous reasons possibly related to age and now it's a travesty of tragic proportions.

again it is illegal to use age to discriminate if the age of the person does not interfere w the ability of the person to perform the job, esp. intellectual white collar jobs where an older candidate still could be easily competitive as any other younger colleague. I know you were a non-trad and older student when you got accepted to med school. So perhaps you might agree with me that your older age did not interfere w your academic performance and success in med school and residency ??

and yes it is tragic when you have to personally experience unwarranted, unjust, and illegal discrimination.


In perhaps, the only country in the world that would ever consider even looking at old @ss medical students as candidates.

Yes, we have to thank God for the genius of this country's founding fathers. America is the one country who pioneers and puts in practice and leads the world with ideals such as equality, liberty, and justice for ALL.

I am proud to be a citizen of this country and feel lucky and appreciative for all the work of all people who worked to lay the foundations and are working and fighting to maintain and protect our rights that are guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights of this country.

as a side note, older folks can go to Caribbean med schools. I bet that they are less biased about the age of the applicant 😉 jk


Let's keep some perspective, we're lucky to be having this conversation. Stuff gets harder as you get older. If you don't outfox your competition you fall by the wayside.

This is just called Mother Nature.

if you really believe what you are saying here, I think you should NOT study and practice medicine. Why helping the "'weak" ?? No need for medicine and let Mother Nature do the job. That is called biological evolution.

really, if I had been an adcom and known you, you would have not been accepted to medical school, let alone making it now to residency.

I think, you might have just been through and absorbing the old thinking and biases of the system by associating w the more established colleagues. Things have changed. 60-70 years ago, this country still struggled with civil rights. We have made great strides since then. Look at history to see if medical school admission of this country was any receptive to older folks in the past. Since then, we start to see more and more older applicants who got accepted to medical schools and went on to great practice just like any other younger colleague. Older students never are less competitive or less qualified students. When you are less competitive and less qualified, you just are regardless of age. Esp. it is education and intellectual-required and related work. Even older people, in general, have been enabled physically to maintain competitive functioning and performance in later years and live longer by better food, hygiene, and recent discovery and invention in medicine and pharmaceutical/biological research.

sorry for this long writing, I am not meaning to offend you but would like you to remember how it was for you and what your passion was when you started your journey in medicine. My best wish to you to continue to succeed in residency and future practice !! 🙂
 
Last edited:
Please tell me it's NOT new revelation that folks with poor academic records regardless of age, find it difficult to get into med school.🙄

The biggest difference is that an older person with a poor academic record has the common sense to not apply to med school in the first place unlike they're younger counterparts who clearly think otherwise based on rejection profiles.
 
Please tell me it's NOT new revelation that folks with poor academic records regardless of age, find it difficult to get into med school.🙄

The biggest difference is that an older person with a poor academic record has the common sense to not apply to med school in the first place unlike they're younger counterparts who clearly think otherwise based on rejection profiles.

yup, you hit the nail on the head !! Right on !! 👍👍
 
If age were as detrimental to academic progression/success as many younger folks seem to think, the average age for a physician wouldn't be OVER 50.

As for Nas' comments, CLEARLY people in his family don't age well. And I'll venture a guess that he's not in good shape either, which makes defending the age argument with him an even bigger waste of time.

If you're a reasonably healthy "Whole Food's salad", why argue with a "whopper with bacon and extra cheese from Burger King", ROTFL???
 
If age were as detrimental to academic progression/success as many younger folks seem to think, the average age for a physician wouldn't be OVER 50.

As for Nas' comments, CLEARLY people in his family don't age well. And I'll venture a guess that he's not in good shape either, which makes defending the age argument with him an even bigger waste of time.

If you're a reasonably healthy "Whole Food's salad", why argue with a "whopper with bacon and extra cheese from Burger King", ROTFL???

that might be the case 🙂 jk
 
The biggest difference is that an older person with a poor academic record has the common sense to not apply to med school in the first place unlike they're younger counterparts who clearly think otherwise based on rejection profiles.
Agree. There is certainly a lot of self-selection that occurs. That's not a bad thing.

In your opinion, what is a so-so record for a traditional age student (20 - 35) and what is a so-so record for an older candidate (age 35+) ??
This will vary from school to school. In my state, a candidate of any age with stats that are at or above the national average for allo matriculants (currently around 3.7/31) will be reasonably competitive at any of our state schools. Those who are more than one standard of deviation below these levels will be at a disadvantage. Those who are more than two SDs below will be at a significant disadvantage. This is true regardless of their age.

I would like to point out that biased adcoms might use a double standard to treat traditional age students vs older students.
That's exactly my point. If I don't want to accept a 40+ year old to med school, how "fortunate" it is for me that so many candidates in this age group have flaws in their stats that I can easily point to as an objective justification for rejecting them.

For traditional students, a so-so record might mean 3.0s GPA and less than 30 MCAT. But for older students, for an example, it might mean a 3.5 GPA and 30+ MCAT.
No. The first person will be a so-so candidate based on stats regardless. The second will be competitive based on stats regardless. There just aren't even on the order of dozens of 40-year-old candidates in the latter group, while there are literally thousands of 22-year-olds in that stat range...or better.

Legally speaking, I do not think med school adcoms can cite age as the deciding factor in the selection process unless the age of the candidate directly interfere which the ability of the students to perform in med school. In reality, I know that age discrimination, esp. for older candidates, is alive and well and no adcom would admit it publicly as age discrimination is illegal in education and work. But I would expect biased adcoms would take full advantage of the "holistic" approach to use as an excuse and cite a whole range of reasons other than age to say that the "whole package" of an older candidate is less than that of a traditional age student. That is why I always wish to see a transparent admission process which is based on objective metrics or standards.
It always interests me to see nontrads say this, since, as a group, those of us in the over 30 group significantly underperform applicants of traditional age when it comes to both GPA and MCAT scores. I would argue that a more objective process would in fact greatly disadvantage older nontrads (not to mention disadvantaged candidates as well). In fact, in many countries, there is a national exam that is the primary deciding factor for who goes to medical school. That would be great for a few exceptional nontrads who manage to buck the odds and score 35+ on the MCAT. But statistically speaking, most older nontrads would not end up in that select group. Our medical schools would be full of upper middle class people in their early 20s, since they compose the bulk of the group of high scorers.
 
By the time you guys find out. I'll be watching you present patients or taking call while I'm off to the yoga studio or the pool by late afternoon. So what goes around goes around again, I suppose. I'll guess we'll see. Touchy old premeds. I'll guess we'll see.
 
Agree. There is certainly a lot of self-selection that occurs. That's not a bad thing.


This will vary from school to school. In my state, a candidate of any age with stats that are at or above the national average for allo matriculants (currently around 3.7/31) will be reasonably competitive at any of our state schools. Those who are more than one standard of deviation below these levels will be at a disadvantage. Those who are more than two SDs below will be at a significant disadvantage. This is true regardless of their age.


That's exactly my point. If I don't want to accept a 40+ year old to med school, how "fortunate" it is for me that so many candidates in this age group have flaws in their stats that I can easily point to as an objective justification for rejecting them.


No. The first person will be a so-so candidate based on stats regardless. The second will be competitive based on stats regardless. There just aren't even on the order of dozens of 40-year-old candidates in the latter group, while there are literally thousands of 22-year-olds in that stat range...or better.

I hope that the majority of med school admission is looking at the actual stats instead of judging and citing age as the reason to or not to accept a candidate for their schools.

For what you are saying there about only dozens of 40 yr olds who are of competitive stats, I think there are still less 40 yr old candidates who are applying for med schools to begin with anyway. It is all about percentage. Perhaps it is fairer comparison comparing the percentage of people who got certain stats within a certain age range to that of the people who got the same stats and are from a different age range. For an example, let's say we see like only 5% of the 40 yr old candidate pool has 3.5+ gpa and 31 MCAT compared to 20% of the 22 yr old candidate pool. Then we might be onto some real finding and safe conclusion here.



It always interests me to see nontrads say this, since, as a group, those of us in the over 30 group significantly underperform applicants of traditional age when it comes to both GPA and MCAT scores. I would argue that a more objective process would in fact greatly disadvantage older nontrads (not to mention disadvantaged candidates as well). In fact, in many countries, there is a national exam that is the primary deciding factor for who goes to medical school. That would be great for a few exceptional nontrads who manage to buck the odds and score 35+ on the MCAT. But statistically speaking, most older nontrads would not end up in that select group.

I am , for one, all for a more or all objective selection process. I am aware of all the disadvantages or shortcomings of this approach but I truly believe that less biases will be resulted from this system vs a subjective or hybrid one where people's personal biases are present and involved. I really wish to see a objective selection process where all metrics and selection categories are objective and standardized. It is transparent to everyone thus absolutely no one could be denied on the basic of race, age, sex, religion, or national origin, etc. Everyone would be judged and compared and earned their admission based on their own undeniable merits. There would be no dispute.

It must be fairer this way. In this system, everyone could afford an equal chance to compete for admission.

I am a non-trad and old. But I would personally and absolutely have no problem if I got rejection bc of my own uncompetitive stats relative to other candidates from a transparent and objective selection process which is based on objective and standardized metrics.

If there is a national exam that is the primary deciding factor for who get to go to med schools regardless of race, age, sex, religion, or national origin, I will be the first in line to vote for it.



Our medical schools would be full of upper middle class people in their early 20s, since they compose the bulk of the group of high scorers.

I do not think that is a good assumption. Esp it is prob assuming that there is no way to overcome inequality in access to information and education. In this modern age, there are many ways to equalize the playing field. Our age is the information age. The greatest invention in the last few decades are computers and the Internet both of which are increasingly accessible and bringing information to everyone. America as a whole has been working hard to bring equality and freedom to pursue happiness to all people, which including education. I do not think the majority of Americans would object more funding or subsidy for public education and assistance.

Regarding medical school admission specifically, the recent collaboration and effort of Khan academy w AAMC for MCAT prep is a great start imho. We certainly can do more.
 
Last edited:
By the time you guys find out. I'll be watching you present patients or taking call while I'm off to the yoga studio or the pool by late afternoon. So what goes around goes around again, I suppose. I'll guess we'll see. Touchy old premeds. I'll guess we'll see.

Yup. def.

I am, for one, admitting that I am touchy on this subject bc this subject strikes to the heart of who and what I am.

regardless, I am a fair person or trying to be one 🙂
 
One last point on this topic, b/c it's starting to bore me.

You don't like what I'm saying. I get that. You want it to be something wrong with me, so you can marshal all of your psychic energy forward into battle. I get that. Go for it. I want you to be happy people. Whatever that means to you.

But just recognize something inherent to cult phenomenon. If I told you how old and awesome and tough I am. How I'm 50 and in super shape and how I was kicking intern year in the face while smoking a cigarette and holding a beer...you'd love me. You'd follow my blog and my twitter.

All the while I could be an insecure egomaniac who depends on your adoration to maintain my delusions. This doesn't happen just on TV it's happened right here on this forum.

But I don't. I try to tell you the truth. That medicine is tough. And that it's not meant for older people. And that older people aren't necessarily better at it. Which to me is a simple, unemotional matter of fact observation....like saying tigers are scary...they could eat people easily in the wild. But...fine. I'm not here to rain on your parade. Carry on.

Just remember....I never lied to you.
 
If I don't want to accept a 40+ year old to med school, how "fortunate" it is for me that so many candidates in this age group have flaws in their stats that I can easily point to as an objective justification for rejecting them.

the reason schools are still getting away w age discrimination is prob there is not a lot of older candidates applying for their schools to begin with, thus there are still not enough clear patterns or reliable stats to base a legal case on. When there are more and more older students applying to med schools and if a school has been consistently doing age discrimination in their admission process, it will create enough tracks and patterns to serve as great basic for lawsuits and a gold mine for good lawyers.


Adcoms are usually secretive about what factors they are used to select candidates for admission (except transparent minimum GPA and standardized test score requirements). However, as more and more older applicants applying to medical schools, it becomes easier to prove that it is statistically significant that a disproportion of older applicants are disadvantageously affected by the admission process. Patterns.





Bottom line is that you'd have the right legal help that can dig through the pretext to the denial based on age. Schools can't denial d/t EEOC; but biased reactions occur all the time for all kinds of reasons. The federally protected blocking based on bias will not be listed, Eg., as Nas stated, "as old as dirt," or whatever.

Basically organizations can do whatever they want, so long as they don't get caught. Now, no organization really wants to deal with even a claim of discrimination based on EEOC issues. So they find ways to cover their tracks. Smart lawyers, however, can peel through the pretexts and makes strong arguments--and at the very least, give these schools bad press. So any youngster or older adcom member should really think more than twice about denying a seat based on age or EEOC issues. I mean they should think long and hard about avoiding them as factors--they should mentally put blinders on and not even look at the birthdate or age or color or whatever is protected under EEOC. In fact, go out of your way and just take it out of the equation, b/c that bias could get the school burned in one way or another.

Nas is just Nas, and there are those like him that are disenchanted about the whole MS/GME gig from start to finish. Their input, unless something dramatic causes internal changes within them, will continue to be on the negative side. Five years ago, he sung a different tune. I was here. I read it. He defended to some degree against age bias--and stated how youngsters w/o life experience are w/o some degree of advantage. He's entitled to change and sing whatever tune he wants. If he, however, decides to sit as an adcom member, sure, he might get away with quietly employing his biases--based on many subjective things from his own POV; but then again, he's taking a risk for the school and perhaps even for him.


Any school, whether osteopathic or allopathic, that is OK with its adcom members employing such biases is asking for trouble. The answer of course is that older non-trads have to go the extra mile, at least IMHO, unless they have the benefit of another URM status, to have super great applications (whole applications). The trouble is that for a number of nontrads, well, there may be some stuff from their earlier edu process that can be used against them, even if their more recent scholarship has been great. If someone is either consciously or subconsciously employing bias, do you not think they will use that?

The other things is that nontrads may not get exposure to research b/c of work and other responsibilities. So this can put them at the "right" 😉 disadvantage for non-acceptance at allopathic schools--wink, wink. There are any number of things in an application that can be used as a "non-biased" basis for discrimination--again, wink, wink.

All an applicant can do is her/his own due diligence in creating the very best application s/he can, and probably apply carefully to various schools. If Harvard is a reach for the 4.0 youngster with a +40 MCAT (or whatever the equivalent will be) and great ECs and solid research and LORs, it's a reasonable bet it will be even a greater reach for most non-trads.

The game is what it is. You do your best to have sound motives and play it as well as you can. But schools should be advised that there are great anti-discrimination lawyers that would be willing to take them on, and at the least, get them some very bad press. In fact, an older non-trad may well have nothing to lose in pushing this--even considering legal costs. If it is something they want to do, and they have a decent job and the money, they may be willing to push against it for years--at the very least--getting possibly some compensation, and at best, opening doors for other nontrads/those protected under EEOC.



http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...aduates-at-age-61.140488/page-2#post-16137495
 
Actually, I don't have "feelies" about Nas' age discrimination issues because honestly I don't really give a **** ( choose an appropriate four letter word here, words that begun with "F" are my personal favs).

Personally, I'll take being a touchy OPM, over an insecure, burned out Doc under age 40 ANY day. 😎

Oldstock, old is OVER age 60 IMHO. Don't let the "age sycophants" tell you any different. 😉
 
One last point on this topic, b/c it's starting to bore me.

You don't like what I'm saying. I get that. You want it to be something wrong with me, so you can marshal all of your psychic energy forward into battle. I get that. Go for it. I want you to be happy people. Whatever that means to you.

But just recognize something inherent to cult phenomenon. If I told you how old and awesome and tough I am. How I'm 50 and in super shape and how I was kicking intern year in the face while smoking a cigarette and holding a beer...you'd love me. You'd follow my blog and my twitter.

All the while I could be an insecure egomaniac who depends on your adoration to maintain my delusions. This doesn't happen just on TV it's happened right here on this forum.

I do not get what you are saying here. I am not following any cult here on SDN or in reality.


But I don't. I try to tell you the truth. That medicine is tough. And that it's not meant for older people. And that older people aren't necessarily better at it. Which to me is a simple, unemotional matter of fact observation....like saying tigers are scary...they could eat people easily in the wild. But...fine. I'm not here to rain on your parade. Carry on.

Just remember....I never lied to you.

well, you are older and you can do everything you are doing but others who are older like you cannot do the same you do. You almost literally are saying older people should be taken care of by Mother Nature. I still do not get it why you decided to study medicine in the first place. Should you not have already been accepted to med schools or giving up your seat to a younger student in the first place ??

Best wish to you.
 
Last edited:
Now Gauss, you have seen me post repeatedly that some of my all-time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I graduated one last year at 50.

We have no preferred age range, but have rejected people for being too immature. We do tend to like older students because they're more mature and don't have the entitled mentality that many young people do. But is there a set age range? No.

Do you think ADCOMs prefer candidates who are 25, 30, 35, 40, or 45, if they all have equally good applications for their age (in other words, let's say they all had a steady stream of great accomplishments, no gaps, no "lazy" periods)?

I ask because I have multiple older students (older than 28), who think they are at a disadvantage. I suspect the opposite, but have little evidence.
 
Now Gauss, you have seen me post repeatedly that some of my all-time best students have been in their 30s and 40s. I graduated one last year at 50.

We have no preferred age range, but have rejected people for being too immature. We do tend to like older students because they're more mature and don't have the entitled mentality that many young people do. But is there a set age range? No.


OK, since someone quoted me from an older post, I guess I'll bite. . .again. 🙂

So then, what, exactly, is the set, age range?

Respectfully,

J

I will wonder why oldstock is banned. Did he/she get miffed at probationary status and close it down?
It's just the Internet.
Que sera sera.
 
Also thought I would throw this out there as well. . . .

So, although this thread is talking about human medicine, I'm curious what folks would say about "How old is too old for veterinary medicine?"

Point: I don't think vet med is a walk in the park either. Are they also shut-out b/c of age? Hmmm. I suppose a very small number in terms of stats. I think, for that, it's primarily the cost of education--just like it is with a number of say post 30 somethings and up in general--regardless if human, vet, or dentistry.

Yea, its' mostly about the money. BTW, recently have a vet to which I have taken my pets, and she is was non-trad. She's doing a fine job. Started her own shop. Does all her own surgeries. Oh and got into an ivy league school for vet edu.

About the emotional toll with clients. . .yea, pretty much a lot of folks get very emotional when their pet is sick or dying, so, once again, the vet is still dealing with people. You know, generally that more stress group of beings. 😉
 
Are ADCOMs generally aware of an applicant's age (perhaps they see it on the application), or is it more a matter of looks? From this thread, I'm getting the idea that it's a matter of looks.

Come to find out, I also have a student with a different problem. She's young, but people tend to assume that she's decades older. I told her to just mention her real age in interviews.
 
I
By the time you guys find out. I'll be watching you present patients or taking call while I'm off to the yoga studio or the pool by late afternoon. So what goes around goes around again, I suppose. I'll guess we'll see. Touchy old premeds. I'll guess we'll see.


Lol. True.
 
My students have ranged in age from 21 to 53. I think there's a necropost about someone graduating from med school at age 61 in this forum.


Yes, thanks. I vaguely remember you have said this. .
 
Are ADCOMs generally aware of an applicant's age (perhaps they see it on the application), or is it more a matter of looks? From this thread, I'm getting the idea that it's a matter of looks.

Come to find out, I also have a student with a different problem. She's young, but people tend to assume that she's decades older. I told her to just mention her real age in interviews.


First thing they are going to look at is your identifying info. Heck medical records are even routed by way of age. It's just what is done. So regardless of how young someone appears, that's what they will be first-pass influence--the demographic info. If you are fortunate enough to get an interview, you walk in the room, and they do a double take BC you look young, BUT anow the age factor is even more in focus. Numbers. Mostly people look at numbers. If bias is there, it will be there no matter what. They may look at you as a whole person, at some point during the interview, but the biases will already be at work. So if they are firm believers in spots going to younger folks, you can make your best case, but it will be whatever. There is little point in worrying about it.

Also, people are more likely to get away w age-bias more then any other type of EEOC violation.. As more people take care of themselves and pursue other interests after 40, this will change. People are working longer, if they can. Being productive helps keep people well. Problem is that culturally, we started to not respect the wisdom of life and experience and age after the 1960s. Elders were reduced to society-pushing prophecies and things were relatively well economically, so elders just went w the flow. The model became, "Just retire and chill." "You've earnef it..." ...total BS. And People could retire and things costed less. Bad move. Everyone, as they live longer, God-willing, will face this. Everyone.

Ageism will effect everyone if they live long enough. Respecting all aspects of active life with firm productivity is important not only for elders, but the whole of society. It also can help reduce healthcare costs--unless you want to start walking people out on the ice to die at a certain age, like Induits have done.

Just remember. One day you will hit that "shining" number, and you may not be ready to go into semi-vegetation mode. You may still have a lot of life and contributions to make.

Actually, ageism is a great evil especially bc it will affect just about all people. If you want to have your live value respected at a later stage of human development, then respect these phases and those in it now. You are looking into your own future if you live long enough. You are setting the tone for how you will be treated when you reach that stage of development!!!!

But you can't make people do what is right or even legal if they don't want to do so. You put your best application out and then move forward. If you feel you were unfairly discriminated against, make the calculations --benefits/risks on getting a good EEOC protection lawyer and deciding if it is worth it.

Ultimately, my point is this. Why worry about it? Make a plan and move on. That's my deal. God, any of us could be hit in a horrible car accident and be dead tomorrow. "Nothing ventured nothing lost. "
 
Last edited:
most important thing is what you look like. I can't prove this but I think somehow late bloomers age more slowly, physically. Im 32 but can pass for 20 if I dress right. 😛
 
most important thing is what you look like. I can't prove this but I think somehow late bloomers age more slowly, physically. Im 32 but can pass for 20 if I dress right. 😛

Of course the downside with this is that every now and then, I get asked if I became a parent in high school. 😡
 
most important thing is what you look like. I can't prove this but I think somehow late bloomers age more slowly, physically. Im 32 but can pass for 20 if I dress right. 😛


I've always looked younger than my age. And yes, I was a very late bloomer. Didn't show secondary sex characteristics until end of sophomore into junior year in HS. Didn't start menses until almost 18.

Again, it doesn't matter what you look like so much. They are going to see paperwork well before they see you. As such, the numbers will click (as most people on adcoms can do simple math calculations from BD's) and whatever prejudice re: age will already be at work. Some will do their due diligence to look past it, and others may go through the motions of "due diligence" and simply be led by their own beliefs about older individuals in MS.

It will be as it will be. Trust that you are doing the right thing, and then go from there. The reality is life is short in general, regardless if you are 18 or 80. Do what you can to reasonably make the most of it. Besides, if you are 21 or 49 and a freshman in MS, it's not what you look like going in. It's how well you hold up after you've been through the mill of residency/fellowship. I mean, you ever noticed how much older a US president looks after 8 years in that role? Even after 4 years, they start looking beaten up. The wonders of super stress!!! LOL
 
In any open file interview (like at my school) we see date of birth. I always make a note of age. That's because I have a few questions I specifically ask the youngest interviewees to screen for immaturity. No, I'm not going to share.

For older interviewees, the standard is "how do you think you can fit in or relate to your younger classmates?"

Looks can be deceiving. I've had bald or balding interviewees, graying interviewees, salt- and pepper interviewees.
Are ADCOMs generally aware of an applicant's age (perhaps they see it on the application), or is it more a matter of looks?
 
For older interviewees, the standard is "how do you think you can fit in or relate to your younger classmates?"

I think asking someone if they "fit in" with younger people is a pretty dumb a** question because "fitting in" isn't nearly as important as "working well" on a team.

Got that old premeds, FLIP this ridiculous question to focus on what's important in medicine, TEAMWORK, NOT the ages of the members on the team!!!

How do older med students "relate" to younger med students"?Why they're both in med school which appears to form the basis of a LOT of "relating"!!

DUH!!!
 
You really think you have a lot in common with people 5, 10 or even 15 years younger than you?


I think asking someone if they "fit in" with younger people is a pretty dumb a** question because "fitting in" isn't nearly as important as "working well" on a team.

Got that old premeds, FLIP this ridiculous question to focus on what's important in medicine, TEAMWORK, NOT the ages of the members on the team!!!

How do older med students "relate" to younger med students"?Why they're both in med school which appears to form the basis of a LOT of "relating"!!

DUH!!!
 
Top