What are my chances...

[greenbean]

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Hi all,
this is my 1st post to sdn and am currently an MS3. i received my step one score today:222/90. I would like to know if this is a really bad score and if i have a chance in any of the following specialties(some of which I really know not2much about at this time) :
neuro
pathology
ob/gyn
IM-->cardio, gi, ID(im just throwing these out ive no clue as to
subspecialty)
ent
gen.surg
ophthalmology

my grades in preclin are all passes,no honors, im just starting rotations this month 🙁....anyhow, would appreciate any advice,,also if there's anything i can do to increase my application please let me know what i can or should do?

thanks

 

[TommyGunn04]

In part, your chances will of course depend on the big picture, so like anyone else you'll need good letters, interesting experiences/activities, good clerkship grades, a good personal statement, etc. Your chances may also depend, in part, on the reputation of the medical school you attend. That said, I'll quickly comment on some of the fields you mentioned, but just out of curiosity, are you really considering all of these fields, or are you just staying really really open-minded because you're afraid your scores will significantly limit your choices?

-neuro - not all that competitive of a field (neurosurgery, on the other hand, is absurdly competitive); a 222 won't keep you out of the running
-ob/gyn - if you're male, you could pretty much go anywhere you want; if you're a female, it's still not all that competitive
-medicine - every year there are more medicine spots than applicants, so the odds are in your favor. But if you want to pursue fellowship training as you mentioned (GI, etc.) then it's in your best interest to attend the most reputable program you can, or a program with a great fellowship match list. One of the nice things about IM programs is that they're often most interested in the whole package, so a 222 won't hurt you as long as you're otherwise interesting to a program. You might not get an interview at Mass General or the Brigham, but you'd likely have a good shot at many good programs.
-ophtho - this is one of the most competitive fields there is, so it would be pretty tough with a 222, especially if you haven't done ophtho research and otherwise demonstrated a profound interest.

Even if you had a 260, it wouldn't necessarily get you IN to a program. As I said before, the total package is what's really important. And 222 really isn't a bad score, as it's above the national average and clearly well above the passing threshold. In the grand scheme of things, your score matters very little, aside from the uber-competitive fields like derm or rads, where cut-offs are often a necessity due to the sheer volume of applications as compared to available slots.

 

[supercut]

Are you kidding?

Did you look at your score report? Didn't you see it tells you what the mean is?

This must be a joke, becuase I don't see how you could look at the mean, and then your score, and wonder if you have a bad score.

If you are really interested in all those specialties, go talk to people that are in them. That will give you the most reliable information

 

[Amy]

Your score is comfortably above average. You have a chance in EVERY specialty. Read your score report and the USMLE bulletin, Dude. 🙄

 

[blocks]

Not to single out the OP, but these "what are my chances" threads are getting really lame. Do a search, there are literally hundreds of these threads on SDN, many with a nearly identical profile as you. Get to work making your match happen, and stop obsessing about your chances.

Here you go, your chances:

IM at a top program: Fair
IM at a good program: Great
Path: excellent
Ob-Gyn: terrific
Neuro: very good
Anesthesia: Good
G-Surg: Likely
Rads: So-so
Ophtho: Possibly
ENT: Slim
Derm: None


Feel better?

😴

 

[Jalby]

no problem
neuro
pathology
ob/gyn
IM-->cardio, gi, ID(im just throwing these out ive no clue as to
subspecialty)
gen.surg

Highly doubtfull. You would have to probably get AOA to keep the hope alive
ophthalmology
ent

 

[yaah]

Yeah I dislike "what are my chances" threads too because they are usually based only on Step I scores and perhaps some ECs. No one can predict this. The worst thing that can happen to you is that you apply and get rejected. You won't know unless you try. So just apply!

Path is getting harder though, BTW, but really only for the high power programs (like top 10% of programs) where you do need to distinguish yourself a bit, although not to the level of derm or rads for sure. And a 222 is a good score.

 

[texas_ute]

Agree with above. The 'What are my chances threads' are stupid... and all the same...
"My Step1 score is X, do I have a chance of getting into program Y in specialty Z??" Really, how in the world could anyone know?

Understand that the Step1 score is such a small piece of the puzzle!! To have any idea of how competitive you are going to be you have to PUT IT ALL TOGETHER: dean's letter, letters of recommendation, clinical grades, AOA/not AOA, pre-clinical grades, research, etc., etc., etc.

Focus on the big picture, not the number 🙄

 

[GoPistons]

only my thoughts... but step 1 scores range from like 190 - 280 or so...

I will speak in MCAT equivalents b/c that makes the most sense to me...

A score in the 260s is like a 42-45
250s is 39-42
240s is 34-39
230s is 30-33
220s is 28-29
210s is 24-28
200s is 20-23
190s is 17-19

I am not talking in regards to what one would get if they had gotten that MCAT score... I am talking in regards to a similar impact a score would provide to a residency admissions committee...
so basically a 240+ is like getting a 35 on the MCAT... so you're pretty much solid for anything... 260+ is like whoa you're a genius... 220+ puts you on the cusp but definitely would get you where you needed to go, but you would have to apply broadly...

the technical mean is a 217 with standard deviation of 24... at least for years 2003 and 2004

 

[GoPistons]

isn't "guju" spelled "gujju"

didn't you see kaal ho na ho?

 

[GoPistons]

my bad... I should reconsider my sources...

 

[ForSkin]

i don't know if the mcat analogy quite works .... we are dealing with two different pools of people and it may be more confusing than elucidating. it is more useful to assume a normal distribution and usually the mean the past few years were about 215 with a sd of 25. that being said, 240 should put you at the 86th percentile and 222 should be about the 60-63 percentile.

the often quoted 2-digit number following the 3-digit usmle score (ie. 235/99) is largely useless and does not serve as a percentile.

unfortunately, there is little data beyond anecdotes (and the SF match stats) about the score ranges for each field, let alone each program. however, here's my completely unqualified opinion about what it takes to have a good shot at matching in the different fields:

integrated plastics (235+, aoa, connections)
rad onc (235+, research, connections)
derm (235+, aoa, research)
neurosurg (230-235, research)
ortho (225, bench pressing your score, good audition)
ent (230, research)
ophthal (225-230, research)
rads (225)
emergency (220)
g surg (210)
neuro (210)
anesthesia (205)
path (GCS>12)
psych
ob/gyn (having a penis is a plus, +/- testicles)
internal med (*must be at a good program to then have a shot at gi, cards)
peds (reactive pupils)

fin.

 

[imtiaz]

ortho (225, bench pressing your score, good audition)
path (GCS>12)
psych
ob/gyn (having a penis is a plus, +/- testicles)
internal med (*must be at a good program to then have a shot at gi, cards)
peds (reactive pupils)

fin.

that was funny as hell! notice how theres no score next to psych.

 

[Blade28]

Great list!

 

[ForSkin]

Oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up. at some of the comments like that made for ob/gyn or ortho. I woulda thought ortho to require a higher score then you assigned it, just cuz I heard its real competitive. But you definitely know more then me, so I'll take your word for it. 😛

no doubt about it, ortho is VERY competitive. but perhaps more than the other fields, a great auditioning rotation is absolutely essential. ortho's a small fraternity and they really don't want lazy wusses. you have to show your mettle in the or and be adept at playing their little grab-ass frat games. a 195 step 1 score can easily be overcome by maxing 300 at the bench or a few paid lap dances for the chief resident. seriously, it just seems to me that "subpar" board scores can be overcome more so in ortho than the other ultra competitive fields (plastics, derm, rad onc), and that an ultra high score guarantees nothing.

 

[GoPistons]

forskin has made a great list... I agree almost 100% with his list... but as you can see a lot of the specialties require at least a 220 to be competitive... thus my MCAT analogy for the 220+ score as a 28-29, which is generally considered the MCAT score needed to be competitive for admission into at least one medical school...

unfortunately, half of all medical students have <217, which makes 50% of med students not realistically competitive for rad/onc, derm, ortho, plastics, rads, maybe emed, etc.

any field that is filled by lots of FMGs is your clue that passing step 1 (190+) is all that is required to enter the field...

 

[14022]

ForSkin is funny. I would do anything to get mine back.

 

[texas_ute]

forskin has made a great list... I agree almost 100% with his list... but as you can see a lot of the specialties require at least a 220 to be competitive... thus my MCAT analogy for the 220+ score as a 28-29, which is generally considered the MCAT score needed to be competitive for admission into at least one medical school...

unfortunately, half of all medical students have <217, which makes 50% of med students not realistically competitive for rad/onc, derm, ortho, plastics, rads, maybe emed, etc.

any field that is filled by lots of FMGs is your clue that passing step 1 (190+) is all that is required to enter the field...

I have to disagree with that middle statement. That is not true that 50% of med students are not realistically competitive for rads, ortho, etc. JUST because of a step1 score < 217. If you do all the right other things, you can likely get a spot in just about any field somewhere- Of course, that means for a very competitive field you would have to have excellent clinical grades, strong letters of recommendation, significant research, etc.

You can't tell me that someone wanting to go into say, Rads, with a step 1 score of 205 or 210 or whatever, who has excellent clinical grades, is AOA, strong letters of rec, research, knows all of the Rads faculty, etc., is not going to get into a spot somewhere!

These scores start to mean less and less when you are in residency applying for fellowships. Fellowship programs want people they know are dedicated and hard-working, what you got on your step 1 or step 2 is completely meaningless at that point.

Bottom line, if you really want a certain specialty, do not let that single result from a PRE-CLINICAL exam scare you away from applying- get to know the people in the department and find out what you need to do to make yourself more competitive.

 

[GoPistons]

I think that the likelihood somebody is AOA, has research, and has honored every clinical grade AND has below a 217 runs at about 0.5% of medical students in the nation... so I stand with my statement...

 

[texas_ute]

I think that the likelihood somebody is AOA, has research, and has honored every clinical grade AND has below a 217 runs at about 0.5% of medical students in the nation... so I stand with my statement...

Fair enough 😎 I just do not want to see MS3's get discouraged if they have a mediocre step 1 score. Anything is possible IF you really want it... 😉

 

[Deleted member 72527]

Like GujuDoc I am pre-med, well, for another 4 days at least. I've wandered over here a few times and noticed these "What are my chances" threads. I don't want to seem critical because I haven't been to med school (yet) and seen how tough it is (yet) but on the other hand I did make it through pchem, so I do know something about rigorous academics. In any case, I've seen a lot of "I scored x on my boards and I have average grades and don't do research, what are my chances for rads, derm, optho, etc.?" It sort of bothers me because it seems like this is not someone who really cares about medicine, rather they want the lifestyle and the $$$. In addition, if you knew you were going to want the lifestyle, then why didn't you bother to bust tail, make honors, find a research project you liked, make yourself a candidate for AOA when it comes around, and make every attempt to kick ass on the boards?

 

[ForSkin]

Like GujuDoc I am pre-med, well, for another 4 days at least. I've wandered over here a few times and noticed these "What are my chances" threads. I don't want to seem critical because I haven't been to med school (yet) and seen how tough it is (yet) but on the other hand I did make it through pchem, so I do know something about rigorous academics. In any case, I've seen a lot of "I scored x on my boards and I have average grades and don't do research, what are my chances for rads, derm, optho, etc.?" It sort of bothers me because it seems like this is not someone who really cares about medicine, rather they want the lifestyle and the $$$. In addition, if you knew you were going to want the lifestyle, then why didn't you bother to bust tail, make honors, find a research project you liked, make yourself a candidate for AOA when it comes around, and make every attempt to kick ass on the boards?

you took pchem?! make sure to put that on your residency apps and mention it in your personal statement.

let's see, we compete with valedictorians and people with photographic memories backed by obsessive compulsive personalities. you've competed with a guy who made a bong out of a gatorade bottle and some tri-delt slut. but then again, you took pchem.

 

[Deleted member 72527]

you took pchem?! make sure to put that on your residency apps and mention it in your personal statement.

let's see, we compete with valedictorians and people with photographic memories backed by obsessive compulsive personalities. you've competed with a guy who made a bong out of a gatorade bottle and some tri-delt slut. but then again, you took pchem.

Originally, I was going to respond this. Then I decided that it wasn't worth the energy it would consume.

I changed my mind: I mentioned AOA as ONE thing on a LIST of items - research, HELLO? You don't need to be the best and the brightest to find a research position. The boards? Everyone can study for them.

PS - the tridelt slut failed out

PPS - the bong-maker was an english major

 

[radswannabe]

I'm not trying to start something up with you, but the guy you are quoting has been through med school, and you have a few more weeks before you begin.

So I can see why they are getting a bit peeved. It is so easy for us to sit on the sidelines and say if you did x, y, and z, you'd get in a good specialty. But in reality, do we really really know how hard it is to be able to do the following??? Its so easy to tell the whole class to do it, but even if the whole class tried, there's still always going to be only a certain amount of people at the top. Only a small amt of people will get in the top residencies, etc. So I think it is unfair to judge.

But that is just my two cents.

Also, yes pchem is a hard class, but I think the course load you deal with in med school will probably be much worse then a single class. Again, I'm not looking to pick fights, but just pointing out some things.

gujuDoc, where are you going to med school? I'm going to cross it off my list of residencies.

 

[ForSkin]

I don't want to seem critical because I haven't been to med school (yet) and seen how tough it is (yet) but on the other hand I did make it through pchem, so I do know something about rigorous academics.

picture this television spot:
bam! guy in street clothes busts through the swinging double doors, walks right into the trauma bay, cracks open a patient's chest, starts massaging the heart ... all while staff look on and inevitably ask "get the fu#k out of here!" as they haul his sorry ass out in cuffs "b-b-b-but i stayed at a holiday inn and set the curve in pchem"
i should be on madison avenue.

look, with all the bs that goes on in medicine, the "lifestyle" specialties actually allow some docs to regain some normalcy in their lives. good god, some women will even have time to procreate. how can you fault anyone for wanting that? now go back to the pre-allo rock from whence you crawled from under, continue to pontificate about all the lost nobility in medicine, and leave real medicine to the big kids for now.

 

[blocks]

no doubt about it, ortho is VERY competitive. but perhaps more than the other fields, a great auditioning rotation is absolutely essential. ortho's a small fraternity and they really don't want lazy wusses. you have to show your mettle in the or and be adept at playing their little grab-ass frat games. a 195 step 1 score can easily be overcome by maxing 300 at the bench or a few paid lap dances for the chief resident. seriously, it just seems to me that "subpar" board scores can be overcome more so in ortho than the other ultra competitive fields (plastics, derm, rad onc), and that an ultra high score guarantees nothing.

That thing about the lap dance isn't that far off...a close friend of mine was interviewing ortho this year, and was invited out to the strip clubs by the residents after the interview dinner the night before the interview.

 

[rufio173]

Forskin,

You are one funny guy! 🙂 I totally agree with you on a lot of what you've said... there was definitely a time when I was very idealistic about medicine in general, but you have to be realistic and find a balance b/w your personal life and work, because if you really wanted to... you could drown in medicine, worry all day about boards scores, AOA, honors, etc..., but I'm telling you, find that balance and it will make some of the more intolerable stuff tolerable (12-14 hr straight sessions of studying in the weeks leading up to cumulative finals) Uggghhh.

Pre-meds, go to med school, learn lots and find that balance and then you most likely won't fault people for wanting to go into those specialties that actually allow a "normal" lifestyle. You can still be a great person and a great doctor if you are in one of the "lifestyle" specialties. Everybody works hard in medicine and in comparison to most other white collar jobs, we live a pretty grueling life in terms of work hours, but man I think the rewards are well worth it in the end... just hope I get there soon myself.

Peace,
John H.

 

[radswannabe]

What's your problem??? I already said I'm premed and was just asking some questions. I wasn't trying to start any trouble with anyone here, and I don't know what your issue is with me.

I was just genuinely curious about what different board scores meant. I've already pointed out that I'm a premed, just wondering about some things.

As per my response to acrimminis, first off.......

I prefaced it saying that I was not trying to pick fights. Second off, if you are a med student, I'm sure you can tell me that I'm not wrong in saying that just as I have no room to talk, nor does anyone else who hasn't been through med school. So again I ask..... What issue do you have with me?? I don't think I said anything offending, except that of which I already apologized for. But then again, if I missed something, please do tell me, rather then making snide responses.

Edited: I just saw my post in the "Would you do it over again" thread and realized you may have taken offense to the last post I made in it. But if I innsinuated something that was wrong about Rads or Derm, I already accounted for the fact that I had no room to talk, hence accounting for the fact that I could be wrong.

But perhaps if you'd read any of my posts more carefully, you'd see I'm not trying to start up fights with anyone here. I asked a genuinely honest question about what board scores meant, and instead I get one person trying to post what they think their undergrad pchem class means in comparison to med school and how they think its so easy to talk about how easy it would be to be at the top, and another person attacking me. Go figure.

In regards to the other thread, and the one that was my initial intention of coming to this part of the forums (to see what other residents thought about their decision to enter medicine), I'd say that I already apologized where I may have been wrong in being judgemental, and prefaced anything else in there with the fact that I had no room to talk, hence allowing them to know that I was just giving what I think the answer would be and not trying to give the facts since I'm sure I don't know the facts in this matter. I'm sorry you can't see that. I apologize if I've offended you or said something so severely wrong that you felt the need to attack me like this. but honestly, I did not come on this side to fight but to get the answer to two honest and genuine questions. So again, I'm sorry, but please feel free to let me know what I may have said that was so offending to you.

You're annoying, gujuDoc.

 

[radswannabe]

You know, I don't know what your problem is, but I don't really care. I didn't come here to start any fights or any trouble, but to ask an honest question or two. If you have such a problem with that, then don't read my posts, because none of them were directed towards you. The fact that you can't even have the guts to tell me what your real issue with me is quite pathetic, as far as I'm concerned.


Also, even if I was a med student already, I don't know what bearing it would have on where you did residency because I doubt we'd see much of each other anyhow.

You're so cute when you're angry.

 

[GoPistons]

she is cute, but she seems to get into fights with a lot of people... rarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... 😉

 

[radswannabe]

Whatever you say. Again, I just asked 2 very innocent questions, and then got attacked by you for no apparent reason. If I got upset, it was because even after apologizing about things I might have been out of line with, I've continually been attacked by others who refuse to let it go.

But whatever floats your boat. Apparently, you get off on making snide remarks for no apparent reason.

Also, if you want to know what city I live in, because it bothers you so much, try looking under my username.

I'm going to avoid the entire state of Florida, just to be on the safe side.

 

[radswannabe]

Good for you. You don't even know me, so I could care less. Also, again, as I so astutely pointed out, where you go to residency has no bearing on my life, just as where I will eventually go to med school has no bearing on yours.

So I don't see the point to any of your posts. Or is there even any point to them??? Seems to me that you are just trying to start up trouble. You know what, I did a search of some of your other posts, and it seems that is all you are here to do. So I really could care less.

But like I said before, whatever floats your boat.

So cute. I'm flattered you searched my posts. Did you see the one in the PT/OT section entitled "Who's Hottest?"?

 

[rufio173]

gujudoc,

You are gonna be one hell of a gunner when you get to med school. Haha

 

[radswannabe]

Do I care if you are flattered or not? Uh, let me see...........NO

I'm starting to see how you got 3000+ posts in 17 months.

 

[radswannabe]

Nah, the many posts I have on here have been from trying to help others out with stuff on the preallo and mcat forum. But, unlike you, I usually contribute something to these forums other then snide remarks all the time.

Secondly, I have seen many med students on here with far more posts then I could ever have, like 4000-10000+ posts, so I'd definitely say I have a lot less in comparison to others here.

Nah, the many posts I've seen you have are when you insert your opinion in nearly every topic, and continue inserting it, whether you have any idea what you're talking about or not, and then try to get the last word every time.

 

[rufio173]

Hey Guju,

Don't worry about it so much eh... I mean, enjoy your time off before you head off into med school. Try to stay out of too many fights 😉 Undergrad years are awesome and for most med school kids, the 1st year of med school is awesome and then the 4th year is even better.

Keep working hard and help people when you can, just don't let people get under your skin or it will serve you poorly during your clinical years.

Peace,
John H.

 

[radswannabe]

And outside of the two threads on this residency forum, just what other threads have you seen of mine??? Or did you go ahead and do a search of my posts???

And in the preallo arena and mcat arena, I think I know damn well what I'm talking about. And there are a lot of people who will tell you that too, who asked for opinions from people who may be able to advise them. So I think I'm entitled to answer those questions. If you are a med student, who gets annoyed by those preallo posts, I have to wonder why you would even wander over there.

The first time I posted in the residency forums was when I was reading that other thread about whether people would do it over again, and that was because it was created for the intent of informing premeds like myself, on what current med students and residents thought of their experiences.

Where I stepped out of line, I already apologized for saying something I probably should not have said, but that's old history, and you know it too.

So this brings us back to square one, you have no real point.

And yes, I've had a few other major fights with some people on SDN in the past, but I've also admitted where I may have been wrong. Yes, I do give my opinion on a lot of things, but then again, who doesn't??? Last I checked, this whole forum is full of opinionated people, especially in preallo, mcat forum, and the lounge/everyone forums. So I don't think I'm alone on that one, but again, whatever.

Right. Anyway you should be thanking me, I'm helping you get to 4000 posts.

 

[Leukocyte]

Officer Barbrady says, "OK PEOPLE, MOVE ALONG, THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE..."

By the way....

I have a 221/90 on Step 1, can "anybody" (usually clueless 4th Year Med. Students like myself) tell me to what specialties I can apply?

 

[radswannabe]

You know what, go on and say whatever you want. I'm going to stop responding to any of your future responses because I have already repeatedly said sorry if I was out of line in saying anything I said in the threads here, but since you obviously don't have anything else to do but post just for the sake of attacking me, I'm just gonna ignore responding to your future responses and be on my merry way.

I got the last word.