What counts as a publication?

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I am a current M3 who's looking ahead to the residency application process. I just realized that my past research experiences led to two publications. These were both major, multi-site clinical studies where I was not one of the major authors but I was acknowledged on the last pages (in very small print). I was just curious, can I include these studies as publications on my CV or do they just count as research experience.

 

[ShinyDome19]

If you type your name into pub med, and a paper shows up...then its safe to assume you have a publication

 

[Kevin Baker]

You can definitely mention an acknowledgment, but it doesn't count as being published. You need to be an author for that. Still, acknowledgments are nice and tangibly show you were involved in a significant way.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

An acknowledgment is not the same as being published. I would highly recommend that you do not list an acknowledgment in your CV. It reeks of desperateness.

I respectfully disagree with Kevin Baker. An acknowledgment is essentially worthless in the academic world. If you were involved in a "significant way," you would've been listed as an author.

My statements are drawn from being involved in research for more than 2.5 years so far. With that being said, you should probably ask your PI/labmates this question. They may have different opinions.

 

[235009]

An acknowledgment is not the same as being published. I would highly recommend that you do not list an acknowledgment in your CV. It reeks of desperateness.

I respectfully disagree with Kevin Baker. An acknowledgment is essentially worthless in the academic world. If you were involved in a "significant way," you would've been listed as an author.

My statements are drawn from being involved in research for more than 2.5 years so far. With that being said, you should probably ask your PI/labmates this question. They may have different opinions.

I wouldn't call it "worthless"....it's annoying when pre-meds speak with such authority about stuff they don't know anything about.

You can definitely mention an acknowledgment, but it doesn't count as being published. You need to be an author for that. Still, acknowledgments are nice and tangibly show you were involved in a significant way.

this is basically the correct answer. you can't list it as a publication because you aren't one of the authors but you should probably try to work it into the description of your research experience. It definitely shows that you made a noticeable contribution to the work.

 

[itellitlikeitis]

I wouldn't call it "worthless"....it's annoying when pre-meds speak with such authority about stuff they don't know anything about.

But this oh-so lowly pre-med only has 2.5 years of experience in a research lab 🙄

I was acknowledged on several papers from my old lab because I helped proof-read the manuscripts or for one of them, I ran some minor gels when I was an undergrad for a busy post-doc that never made it into the paper because nothing interesting came out of them. I'm not going to list them on any CVs or residency applications because like Kaushik said, only people with significant contributions are listed as authors to a paper and it does reek of desperateness

this is basically the correct answer. you can't list it as a publication because you aren't one of the authors but you should probably try to work it into the description of your research experience. It definitely shows that you made a noticeable contribution to the work.

That was what Kaushik was trying to say- listing the acknowledgment as some stand alone like a "publication" listing is not justified, which is what the OP originally asked

 

[ar2388]

research in undergrad is different... the topics are usualyl different and the way medical research operates i think differs slightly from basic science research.
i spent 2.5 -3 years in undergrad doing research, mostly basic science (chem and neuroscience labs) and currently I'm working on a case report at the medical center. I think acknowledgments count. sure its not a publication but you did meaningful work and you deserve the credit for that. and i do not think it reeks of desperation at all!

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I wouldn't call it "worthless"....it's annoying when pre-meds speak with such authority about stuff they don't know anything about.

What I find annoying is when people higher up in the hierarchy (med students) just assume they know more than those who are lower in the hierarchy (premeds) simply because they're in med school.

Not only that, it looks like you didn't read/understand what I wrote at all. After giving my view of the topic, I explicitly listed what experience I have in academia to give more support to my opinion. And I even suggested that the OP ask his/her PI and labmates since they might have different opinions. I don't think that comes off as me speaking "with such authority about stuff don't know anything about."

Pray tell, what extensive research experience do you have that made you immediately look down on me and tell me that my 2.5 years of research (including currently conducting full-time research) means I have no clue what I'm talking about? 🙄

research in undergrad is different... the topics are usualyl different and the way medical research operates i think differs slightly from basic science research.
i spent 2.5 -3 years in undergrad doing research, mostly basic science (chem and neuroscience labs) and currently I'm working on a case report at the medical center. I think acknowledgments count. sure its not a publication but you did meaningful work and you deserve the credit for that. and i do not think it reeks of desperation at all!

That's where I disagree with you. In my opinion, if you did any meaningful work, you would be listed as an author, not as an acknowledgment. If you did meaningful work on the project, why would you only be listed as an acknowledgment? Being listed as an author means that you contributed meaningfully to the project. Something doesn't add up there...

Generally, people who get listed in the acknowledgments are those who do something like proof-reading the manuscript or helping make the reagents for an experiment or something along those lines. Listing these publications to beef up your CV would ultimately make you look bad, IMO. Maybe it was a bit much of me to say that it "reeks of desperateness," but I stand by my original statement: an acknowledgment, at least in my experience with basic/translational research, is essentially worthless and you should not be listing it on your CV. List the research experience if you want, but it's likely not a good idea to cite the paper when you're not an author.

 

[235009]

Pray tell, what extensive research experience do you have that made you immediately look down on me and tell me that my 2.5 years of research (including currently conducting full-time research) means I have no clue what I'm talking about? 🙄

I definitely don't feel a need to justify myself or make any reference to my experience in response to this. Not to mention that doing so is really juvenile. It's up to OP, a 3rd year med student, to decide whether to take the unanimous advice of 3 med students (mention it as part of your experience but don't list it as a publication) or your advice.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I definitely don't feel a need to justify myself or make any reference to my experience in response to this. Not to mention that doing so is really juvenile. It's up to OP, a 3rd year med student, to decide whether to take the unanimous advice of 3 med students (mention it as part of your experience but don't list it as a publication) or your advice.

Says the guy/girl who flung the first stone. 🙄

You do realize that the advice you gave is essentially the same thing I said right? ie. mention the research experience but don't list the papers as publications.

Now, don't take this the wrong way but, suggesting that the OP shouldn't listen to the advice of anyone beneath the level of med students no matter what (which is what you seem to be implying...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't make sense. Especially when it comes to academia/research, which med schools don't really seem to provide substantial training or experience for. Just so you know.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

OP, to add a bit more support to my argument that acknowledgments are essentially worthless, when I went into lab today, I asked some of my lab-mates (final-year grad students and post-docs) the same question you posed. They agreed with me that acknowledgments aren't worth anything and that if you contributed significantly, you'd have been listed as an author instead. They went a step further and recommended that when you're writing about the research experience, that you don't even mention that were acknowledged in a paper since it "comes off like you're trying to inflate the level of your contribution to the project" (these were not my words).

This is still a small sample size (around n = 5) and they're all pure PhDs/soon-to-be-PhDs. If you'd like, I can ask some PIs that I know (MD/PhDs and PhDs) tomorrow what their opinion is. I can pretty much guarantee you that their response will be similar to what I've given though. You should really still ask your own lab-mates and PI before making your final decision.

Hope this helps.

To everyone else reading this thread, sorry to keep pushing this. Insert obligatory xkcd:

🙂

 

[smq123]

I wouldn't call it "worthless"....it's annoying when pre-meds speak with such authority about stuff they don't know anything about.

It's equally annoying when MS2s speak with such authority about stuff they don't know anything about.

I definitely don't feel a need to justify myself or make any reference to my experience in response to this. Not to mention that doing so is really juvenile. It's up to OP, a 3rd year med student, to decide whether to take the unanimous advice of 3 med students (mention it as part of your experience but don't list it as a publication) or your advice.

Kaushik's advice is actually, in my opinion, perfectly correct. An acknowledgement is, for all intents and purposes, fairly worthless. There isn't a lot of space to go into long essays about your research experience and the oh-so-meaningful acknowledgement that you got. You get two lines, and that's about it. It doesn't raise your application in the eyes of the PD at all.

And you ARE basically echoing exactly what Kaushik recommended!

OP - If you are interested in looking ahead at the ERAS application (and it is still super early!) here are some resources:

A FAQ about ERAS publications, if you are listed as an author on any

ERAS worksheet

The key is to really be conservative. Inflating your CV in any way is dangerous, and has definitely caused many applicants grief. There is nothing that can sink your interview faster than having the interviewer read through your app and ask you probing questions about hobbies that you don't really have, or "significant" research experience that you didn't really do. And it would definitely raise a few eyebrows if you listed the publication, without you mentioned anywhere as an author.

 

[235009]

Now, don't take this the wrong way but, suggesting that the OP shouldn't listen to the advice of anyone beneath the level of med students no matter what (which is what you seem to be implying...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) doesn't make sense. Especially when it comes to academia/research, which med schools don't really seem to provide substantial training or experience for. Just so you know.

It's equally annoying when MS2s speak with such authority about stuff they don't know anything about.

you guys do realize that people have lives before/outside of med school right?

anyway, i would yield to smq123's opinion on this of course because he/she has experience with the residency app process and the ERAS application whereas I've glanced at the worksheet once. However residents/attendings are pretty rare on this site so its not like med students are overstepping their bounds by responding to other med students' questions on the med student forum.

I do think it is best to shine the most appealing light on what you've got without exaggerating though. Fortunately my situation is a lot more straight forward so I haven't really given this too much thought.

As for the PhDs and soon-to-be PhDs....they are looking at it from a whole different perspective...with very different expectations

finally i never said Kaushik was wrong, I (and the others) were only commenting on how harsh his phrasing was by calling it "worthless" and a sign of "desperateness"

at least we can find common ground on the fact that xkcd is awesome 👍

 

[smq123]

you guys do realize that people have lives before/outside of med school right?

Right....like Kaushik and his 2.5 years of research experience, even as a pre-med. 😉

However residents/attendings are pretty rare on this site so its not like med students are overstepping their bounds by responding to other med students' questions on the med student forum.

We're not that rare. And, in any case, while I think that it's great that you try to help others by answering their questions, most MS2s and MS3s do not realize how restrictive and rigid ERAS is, since most of them haven't filled it out.

As for the PhDs and soon-to-be PhDs....they are looking at it from a whole different perspective...with very different expectations

Well, I would disagree. I think the rules for what constitute significant research experience is still pretty standard, and PDs can smell CV inflation. So I don't think it's just PhDs who would consider citation of an acknowledgement as CV inflation. An acknowledgement is still a pretty weak achievement, whether you're a PhD candidate or an MD/DO candidate.

I do think it is best to shine the most appealing light on what you've got without exaggerating though. Fortunately my situation is a lot more straight forward so I haven't really given this too much thought.

finally i never said Kaushik was wrong, I (and the others) were only commenting on how harsh his phrasing was by calling it "worthless" and a sign of "desperateness"

As a resident who gets to skim through applications, people with acknowledgements and self-described "significant research experience" are a dime a dozen. Acknowledgements may not be completely worthless, but they are pretty darn close. I would either not look at that, or not really take it into consideration, and I'm in a very research-light specialty. In other, more competitive specialties, where you are competing against people with masters degrees and PhDs, that "acknowledgement" that you list on your CAF in ERAS is going to look pretty puny.

 

[235009]

As a resident who gets to skim through applications, people with acknowledgements and self-described "significant research experience" are a dime a dozen. Acknowledgements may not be completely worthless, but they are pretty darn close. I would either not look at that, or not really take it into consideration, and I'm in a very research-light specialty. In other, more competitive specialties, where you are competing against people with masters degrees and PhDs, that "acknowledgement" that you list on your CAF in ERAS is going to look pretty puny.

personally i WANT most reviewers to share your perspective on this so you won't get any argument from me 🙂

(sorry OP)

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

finally i never said Kaushik was wrong, I (and the others) were only commenting on how harsh his phrasing was by calling it "worthless" and a sign of "desperateness"

I personally don't think my phrasing was harsh, but I can see how others might. I gave my view based on extensive experience and I believe that my statement that acknowledgments are essentially worthless has a ring of truth to it (the "publish or perish" mentality is pretty rampant in academia...it doesn't really matter how much effort you put into something if you don't get meaningful results). This view seems to be pretty similar in all of academia, encompassing both basic/translational research as well as clinical research. And, like smq said, the standards for what's considered significant research are fairly similar in all areas of research. It usually doesn't work out in your favor if you artificially beef up your CV. And people looking at your CV (whether it's for residency applications, an academic position, whatever) are likely to be much more critical than I am.

To be fair, I have been explicit regarding the reasoning for my view since the very beginning and it was you who refused to provide your research qualifications and invoked the med-students-are-superior-to-premeds card.

Either way, I hope this discussion ends up helping the OP and any others who might have similar questions. No harm, no foul skinMD. We're cool. 🙂

Thanks for the support smq.

at least we can find common ground on the fact that xkcd is awesome 👍

Indeed! I love xkcd! 😛

 

[235009]

To be fair, I have been explicit regarding the reasoning for my view since the very beginning and it was you who refused to provide your research qualifications and invoked the med-students-are-superior-to-premeds card.

One thing I really hate about med students is the constant need for validation and the constant bragging that goes on. So many of my classmates are looking for ANY opportunity to rattle off their accomplishments, even when they're not really that impressive at all.

Since you seem to be extraordinarily persistent....I have a first author pub and a second author pub (both original research in journals with IF > 5) and currently working on another 2nd author pub. I also presented my research (oral presentation) at an international conference a year and a half ago and have won research awards/scholarships at that conference and another conference. I also have a master's degree as you should be able to tell from my signature. I hope that measures up to your "2.5 years of research" as an undergrad 🙄 ....A little humility goes a long way.

 

[TobiasFunkeMDFACS]

I was a lot less blunt about that...but I still think you're really cool.

I wouldn't call it "worthless".... it's annoying when pre-meds speak with such authority about stuff they don't know anything about.



this is basically the correct answer. you can't list it as a publication because you aren't one of the authors but you should probably try to work it into the description of your research experience. It definitely shows that you made a noticeable contribution to the work.

 

[MCAT guy]

Kaushik, skinMD, smq123...

Really?