What do doctors and airlines have in common?

[Planes2Doc]

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People get all up in arms when they hear about airlines or doctors talking about making money. I used to work in the airline industry, and I heard so many complaints when airlines would put in new fees in order to make money. Somehow people didn't realize that airlines were businesses, and they needed to make money.

Fast-forwarding to pre-med, I learned that we generally had to show our "altruistic" side to the ADCOMs, and present ourselves as people that pretty much want to work for free. I thought this was just for show until breakfast with classmates this morning...

There was a fellow classmate who was saying that she knows a physician who drives a Bentley and lives in a large house. She then proceeded to say that doctors should not make that much money. I was in absolute shock! 😱 Was she serious? I thought that this mentality disappeared once people got into medical school, but I guess I was wrong? I don't understand where this is coming from.

If you were in any other profession, you would be considered an absolute IDIOT for ever saying something like this. I hear people talking all the time about their friends who graduated from T14 law schools and are now making big bucks, or their friends on Wall Street who are making money in the hundreds of thousands range. Can you imagine the following happening at a law firm interview:

Interviewer: Well we are very impressed with you, and would like to offer you a job here! We will start you at $300,000 a year.
Applicant: That's great! But $300,000 a year is way too much. I would feel wrong taking it. I will only take the job if I get $150,000.
Interviewer: Great! We'll see you next Monday.

If you think the above situation sounds ludicrous, then why do people believe that this is what physicians should honestly be doing? Why is it that people believe that doctors should be working for free? We are giving up years of our lives so that we can go and help others for the rest of our lives. Why should we not have a right to expect a decent amount of compensation? There are so many people out there, especially celebrities, that contribute NOTHING to society. They make millions of dollars, and no one makes a peep. But all of a sudden, you see a doctor in a Ferrari, and all hell breaks loose! 😕

It's even more frustrating when your fellow MEDICAL STUDENTS are holding this opinion. I didn't think that anyone would ever say that they deserve to make less money. If they really have an altruistic nature, then why not spend time on weekends working at a free clinic or doing mission trips around the world? That's a good way to give back. But would someone who says that "doctors make too much" actually request to make a lower salary? This is just beyond comprehension. So what are YOUR experiences with students at your school? Do you see people like this? If you do, then how does it make you feel? Do you actually feel this way? I seriously thought the whole "I love working for free because I'm the next Mother Teresa" song and dance for ADCOMs was over once someone had an acceptance. I guess not. I just think it's plain wrong to villainize doctors for wanting to make money. We should seriously stand up for ourselves, especially with all of the sacrifices that we make to do this! What do you guys think?

 

[Abby_Normal]

I swore to myself that I would avoid threads like this...oh well...

How much someone "should" make isn't just based upon how "deserving" they are; it's also based upon the financial realities. I would venture that a lot of criticism (from within the industry) of how much some physicians comes largely from doubts about the sustainability of the current model and pay scales.

I have heard physicians make this argument. And it's worth pointing out that, in my experience, most people who talk about cutting salaries are only talking about relatively minor cuts, and mostly to the top-salaried specialties. No-one is suggesting that doctors should work for free--last I looked, 150K (avg primary care salary) is a long way from that.

 

[yappy]

wrong. physician as a percentage of health care spending is fairly low. Physicians provide a TON of value - think of how much physicians add to human capital.

Case and point - when I was younger I needed a surgery to not grow up disabled or die. Now I'm interviewing for professional school. That doctor added a life time of earnings to the economy - how much is that worth?

Put another way: How much would you pay for your child to be saved when only a few hundred/thousand people can perform that surgery? Would you take out a home line of credit?

Maybe some things need to change; but, IMO it isn't pay doctors less.

I swore to myself that I would avoid threads like this...oh well...

How much someone "should" make isn't just based upon how "deserving" they are; it's also based upon the financial realities. I would venture that a lot of criticism (from within the industry) of how much some physicians comes largely from doubts about the sustainability of the current model and pay scales.

 

[Substance]

People get all up in arms when they hear about airlines or doctors talking about making money. I used to work in the airline industry, and I heard so many complaints when airlines would put in new fees in order to make money. Somehow people didn't realize that airlines were businesses, and they needed to make money.

Fast-forwarding to pre-med, I learned that we generally had to show our "altruistic" side to the ADCOMs, and present ourselves as people that pretty much want to work for free. I thought this was just for show until breakfast with classmates this morning...

There was a fellow classmate who was saying that she knows a physician who drives a Bentley and lives in a large house. She then proceeded to say that doctors should not make that much money. I was in absolute shock! 😱 Was she serious? I thought that this mentality disappeared once people got into medical school, but I guess I was wrong? I don't understand where this is coming from.

If you were in any other profession, you would be considered an absolute IDIOT for ever saying something like this. I hear people talking all the time about their friends who graduated from T14 law schools and are now making big bucks, or their friends on Wall Street who are making money in the hundreds of thousands range. Can you imagine the following happening at a law firm interview:

Interviewer: Well we are very impressed with you, and would like to offer you a job here! We will start you at $300,000 a year.
Applicant: That's great! But $300,000 a year is way too much. I would feel wrong taking it. I will only take the job if I get $150,000.
Interviewer: Great! We'll see you next Monday.

If you think the above situation sounds ludicrous, then why do people believe that this is what physicians should honestly be doing? Why is it that people believe that doctors should be working for free? We are giving up years of our lives so that we can go and help others for the rest of our lives. Why should we not have a right to expect a decent amount of compensation? There are so many people out there, especially celebrities, that contribute NOTHING to society. They make millions of dollars, and no one makes a peep. But all of a sudden, you see a doctor in a Ferrari, and all hell breaks loose! 😕

It's even more frustrating when your fellow MEDICAL STUDENTS are holding this opinion. I didn't think that anyone would ever say that they deserve to make less money. If they really have an altruistic nature, then why not spend time on weekends working at a free clinic or doing mission trips around the world? That's a good way to give back. But would someone who says that "doctors make too much" actually request to make a lower salary? This is just beyond comprehension. So what are YOUR experiences with students at your school? Do you see people like this? If you do, then how does it make you feel? Do you actually feel this way? I seriously thought the whole "I love working for free because I'm the next Mother Teresa" song and dance for ADCOMs was over once someone had an acceptance. I guess not. I just think it's plain wrong to villainize doctors for wanting to make money. We should seriously stand up for ourselves, especially with all of the sacrifices that we make to do this! What do you guys think?

I bet those holier-than-thou classmates of yours are going to end up in derm or rad onc.

 

[Abby_Normal]

wrong. physician as a percentage of health care spending is fairly low. Physicians provide a TON of value - think of how much physicians add to human capital.

Case and point - when I was younger I needed a surgery to not grow up disabled or die. Now I'm interviewing for professional school. That doctor added a life time of earnings to the economy - how much is that worth?

Put another way: How much would you pay for your child to be saved when only a few hundred/thousand people can perform that surgery? Would you take out a home line of credit?

Maybe some things need to change; but, IMO it isn't pay doctors less.

I am well aware that physician salaries are not the cause of health care costs spiraling out of control. However, I have heard convincing arguments that it would benefit health if the reduce the salary gap between specialties (and that suggestion usually involves some cuts to the top).

 

[peteB]

Case and point - when I was younger I needed a surgery to not grow up disabled or die. Now I'm interviewing for professional school. That doctor added a life time of earnings to the economy - how much is that worth?

A lot of people save lives that aren't doctors. Firefighters, policemen, emergency medical technicians, just to name a few. If a firefighter had pulled you from a burning building and saved your life, he would have done the same for the economy as that surgeon did. So doesn't he deserve as much as the surgeon based on your logic?

 

[tco]

I am well aware that physician salaries are not the cause of health care costs spiraling out of control. However, I have heard convincing arguments that it would benefit health if the reduce the salary gap between specialties (and that suggestion usually involves some cuts to the top).

Some cuts to the top? How about we start doing hourly salaries based on skillset and demand rather than volume?

 

[VenusinFurs]

Your classmate will probably change her tune once she gets into med school.

Also I thought this thread title was a set up for a joke. I am disappoint.

 

[peteB]

It's a fact that american doctors get paid the most of any country's doctors. If other systems can get along with paying doctors less, then it is not impossible.

 

[Planes2Doc]

Your classmate will probably change her tune once she gets into med school.

Also I thought this thread title was a set up for a joke. I am disappoint.

Sorry to disappoint you... We're MS-1s. Maybe along the way people will change their tune. I just wonder where and when. I still hear classmates saying "money is baaaaaaaddddddd" all the time. 🙄

 

[link2swim06]

I am well aware that physician salaries are not the cause of health care costs spiraling out of control. However, I have heard convincing arguments that it would benefit health if the reduce the salary gap between specialties (and that suggestion usually involves some cuts to the top).

This isn't new news. Over the past decade, nearly every year specialist pay has been cut/not increased while PCP pay has been increased. You can't cut specialist pay to that of PCPs in 1 year otherwise there would be no time for them to transition their businesses (causing many to fai).

Some cuts to the top? How about we start doing hourly salaries based on skillset and demand rather than volume?

How does this encourage a physician to be efficient? Payment per volume means physicians will strive to be as efficient as possible and see as many patients as possible. Even EM which is traditionally "hourly pay" still typically has a revenue pay based on how much work you did.

 

[yappy]

No he doesn't. I was a volunteer firefighter and my training was 3 months before I was on the line. EMT cert took me one college term.

Someone saving a life via abd thrusts isn't the same as performing a technical surgery. The former anyone can do; however, the latter takes a lot of training.

A lot of people save lives that aren't doctors. Firefighters, policemen, emergency medical technicians, just to name a few. If a firefighter had pulled you from a burning building and saved your life, he would have done the same for the economy as that surgeon did. So doesn't he deserve as much as the surgeon based on your logic?

BTW: Career firefighters make 70k+. Capt made 100k+ both with a 60% of yearly income retirement till they died.

PeteB:

If I run Norton antivirus on your computer and get it working again; is that the same as you fixing an entirely different problem utilizing your coding background to its fullest extent? I mean... we both got a computer working again right?

 

[link2swim06]

It's a fact that american doctors get paid the most of any country's doctors. If other systems can get along with paying doctors less, then it is not impossible.

Are other countries doctors 200K in debt and are big targets for lawsuits?

Also how many years of education do they have between high school and becoming an attending?

 

[Planes2Doc]

Incorrect. I was a volunteer firefighter and my training was 3 months before I was on the line. EMT cert took me one college term.

Someone saving a life via abd thrusts isn't the same as performing a technical surgery. The former anyone can do; however, the latter takes a lot of training.

This is true. Even though it sounds silly, you can pretty much extrapolate how any job in society is vital to your survival. It's kind of like the pre-med volunteer working in the hospital gift shop that writes their essay trying to portray their commitment as being life-saving and extremely vital to the hospital.

I'm assuming celebrities, athletes, and the Kardashians definitely deserve their millions of dollars, which is considerably more than any doctor will earn. But people earn what the market gives. I'm not here to judge who should earn money and who shouldn't, nor am I here to say that people should spread the wealth or anything like that.

But people do get used to their profession receiving a certain amount of money. There's going to be considerable kickback from the group if that happens. Do you honestly think that just about every economics and business major at the Ivies would try for Investment Banking if it didn't pay as much as it did? If it paid $50k a year (in-line with a lot of entry-level management jobs) yet had the same 80-100 hour work weeks, do you honestly think people would still do it?

 

[VenusinFurs]

Sorry to disappoint you... We're MS-1s. Maybe along the way people will change their tune. I just wonder where and when. I still hear classmates saying "money is baaaaaaaddddddd" all the time. 🙄

MS3 then maybe.

I mean, I'm going into family and I don't expect to be driving a Bentley any time soon but I would never rag on someone for going for the big bucks or say they don't deserve it.

 

[Planes2Doc]

MS3 then maybe.

I mean, I'm going into family and I don't expect to be driving a Bentley any time soon but I would never rag on someone for going for the big bucks or say they don't deserve it.

👍 👍 👍 This is the way it should be. Everyone has their own motivations, and we should respect them. To each their own. I'm sick of people shoving their views down each others' throats. That's what kind of happens during the admissions process, but people know what to expect, say, and do.

 

[peteB]

PeteB:

If I run Norton antivirus on your computer and get it working again; is that the same as you fixing an entirely different problem utilizing your coding background to its fullest extent? I mean... we both got a computer working again right?

Of course not, but the way you phrased it, you didn't take into account the difference in skills which is what really warrants the difference in pay, not just the fact that doctors save lives.

 

[peteB]

Are other countries doctors 200K in debt and are big targets for lawsuits?

Also how many years of education do they have between high school and becoming an attending?

I don't know the exact answers to these questions, but I do see your point. Obviously if we cut doctors pay we will also have to reduce the cost of medical school, or reduce the number of years or something. I didn't say that we wouldn't have to do that. All I said is that it is possible to get doctors cheaper. However, it would require a major overhaul of the medical education process and the legal system with respect to malpractice.

 

[peteB]

To address the OP:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to make good money as a doctor, and there is absolutely no shame in admitting that. Wanting to make money should not be and is not a bad thing, especially in a world where everything revolves around money. As long as you do your job well and honestly, and don't do anything unethical, it's fine. I am willing to put money on the fact that 9/10 of your holier-than-thou classmates who tell you otherwise are going to go for the highest paying specialties they can.

 

[Law2Doc]

People get all up in arms when they hear about airlines or doctors talking about making money. I used to work in the airline industry, and I heard so many complaints when airlines would put in new fees in order to make money. Somehow people didn't realize that airlines were businesses, and they needed to make money.

Fast-forwarding to pre-med, I learned that we generally had to show our "altruistic" side to the ADCOMs, and present ourselves as people that pretty much want to work for free. I thought this was just for show until breakfast with classmates this morning...

There was a fellow classmate who was saying that she knows a physician who drives a Bentley and lives in a large house. She then proceeded to say that doctors should not make that much money. I was in absolute shock! 😱 Was she serious? I thought that this mentality disappeared once people got into medical school, but I guess I was wrong? I don't understand where this is coming from.

If you were in any other profession, you would be considered an absolute IDIOT for ever saying something like this. I hear people talking all the time about their friends who graduated from T14 law schools and are now making big bucks, or their friends on Wall Street who are making money in the hundreds of thousands range. Can you imagine the following happening at a law firm interview:

Interviewer: Well we are very impressed with you, and would like to offer you a job here! We will start you at $300,000 a year.
Applicant: That's great! But $300,000 a year is way too much. I would feel wrong taking it. I will only take the job if I get $150,000.
Interviewer: Great! We'll see you next Monday.

If you think the above situation sounds ludicrous, then why do people believe that this is what physicians should honestly be doing? Why is it that people believe that doctors should be working for free? We are giving up years of our lives so that we can go and help others for the rest of our lives. Why should we not have a right to expect a decent amount of compensation? There are so many people out there, especially celebrities, that contribute NOTHING to society. They make millions of dollars, and no one makes a peep. But all of a sudden, you see a doctor in a Ferrari, and all hell breaks loose! 😕

It's even more frustrating when your fellow MEDICAL STUDENTS are holding this opinion. I didn't think that anyone would ever say that they deserve to make less money. If they really have an altruistic nature, then why not spend time on weekends working at a free clinic or doing mission trips around the world? That's a good way to give back. But would someone who says that "doctors make too much" actually request to make a lower salary? This is just beyond comprehension. So what are YOUR experiences with students at your school? Do you see people like this? If you do, then how does it make you feel? Do you actually feel this way? I seriously thought the whole "I love working for free because I'm the next Mother Teresa" song and dance for ADCOMs was over once someone had an acceptance. I guess not. I just think it's plain wrong to villainize doctors for wanting to make money. We should seriously stand up for ourselves, especially with all of the sacrifices that we make to do this! What do you guys think?

The world isn't fair and people don't believe in salary based on merit. Nobody begrudges that the kids from the Jersey Shore are all millionaires though they have accomplished nothing except flaunting their ignorance on international TV. It would be nice to live in a World where someone who spends a Decade of school and training earns more than someone living the GTL lifestyle. But that's not the US. So no whining about it. Nobody is forcing you to be a doctor.

 

[bambi]

I don't know the exact answers to these questions, but I do see your point. Obviously if we cut doctors pay we will also have to reduce the cost of medical school, or reduce the number of years or something. I didn't say that we wouldn't have to do that. All I said is that it is possible to get doctors cheaper. However, it would require a major overhaul of the medical education process and the legal system with respect to malpractice.

Make your training even shorter? Couldn't be much shorter!

Obviously it varies by country but in the UK fees have just changed so tuition is the equivalent of maybe $14,000 a year for 5-6 years, then living costs which are generally more than in most parts of the US. The absolute shortest training you can do post med-school to be fully qualified in a specialty is 5 years, that's general practice (family med) and that is about to change. The longest are the surgical specialties, without fellowship or research years those are about 9-12 years after med school. Everything else is somewhere in the middle. As for money, a first year consultant (attending) will make about the equivalent of $125,000 regardless of specialty though general practice is a bit different. The money doesn't go up hugely either. You would struggle to find many people that made more than the equivalent of $300-350K in any specialty and they certainly wouldn't make that on the NHS, it would be private work. In the US you have a pretty sweet deal overall, yes your loans are more but you earn so much more and you are making big bucks very quickly. Though no, you would be stupid to request a lower salary for really any reason. If you don't want the cash give it to charity or something.

 

[peteB]

The world isn't fair and people don't believe in salary based on merit. Nobody begrudges that the kids from the Jersey Shore are all millionaires though they have accomplished nothing except flaunting their ignorance on international TV. It would be nice to live in a World where someone who spends a Decade of school and training earns more than someone living the GTL lifestyle. But that's not the US. So no whining about it. Nobody is forcing you to be a doctor.

People are more willing to pay for entertainment than healthcare. That's because entertainment is a positive experience, and healthcare is generally a negative experience. No one looks forward to being sick and having to go to a doctor- and the bill just makes it worse. You feel like you're paying for something you didn't want in the first place. Just like having to pay for repairs to your car after you crash it into something. You didn't want to have to make those payments so you are not very pleased when you have to.

On the other hand, most people are excited to see their favorite band or comedian or TV personality. It's a very positive experience and they are far happier to pay for it, and pay more for it.

That's just the nature of the people in our society.

 

[Law2Doc]

People are more willing to pay for entertainment than healthcare. That's because entertainment is a positive experience, and healthcare is generally a negative experience. No one looks forward to being sick and having to go to a doctor- and the bill just makes it worse. You feel like you're paying for something you didn't want in the first place. Just like having to pay for repairs to your car after you crash it into something. You didn't want to have to make those payments so you are not very pleased when you have to.

On the other hand, most people are excited to see their favorite band or comedian or TV personality. It's a very positive experience and they are far happier to pay for it, and pay more for it.

That's just the nature of the people in our society.

Well you would be surprised how many people come to the doctor simply because they have nobody else they can talk to, or because they need a pharmacological "fix", or because of some sort of secondary gain. So It does serve an "entertainment" feature for a chunk of the population. And people who leave the office with good results, negative tests, etc, tend to have positive experiences. And they aren't any happier about paying your bill.. But I get your point.

 

[peteB]

Well you would be surprised how many people come to the doctor simply because they have nobody else they can talk to, or because they need a pharmacological "fix", or because of some sort of secondary gain. So It does serve an "entertainment" feature for a chunk of the population. And people who leave the office with good results, negative tests, etc, tend to have positive experiences. And they aren't any happier about paying your bill.. But I get your point.

That's true.

Going back to your original point though, an average doctor vs one of the Jersey Shore stars is not really a fair salary comparison. If you compared the average doctor to the average entertainer (or the average GTL'er), you'd find that the doctor comes out way ahead. The Jersey Shore kids and other stars are in the top 1% of entertainers with respect to their income- they are the extremes, not the norm. So even though people are more willing to pay for entertainment, doctors still come out ahead overall.

 

[neusu]

Case and point - when I was younger I needed a surgery to not grow up disabled or die. Now I'm interviewing for professional school. That doctor added a life time of earnings to the economy - how much is that worth?

I'll play devil's advocate. Had you died, your position would surely have been filled by another equal, albeit marginally lower quality, candidate. While your potential as a child is indeterminate, society is minimally affected by small changes.

 

[neusu]

This is true. Even though it sounds silly, you can pretty much extrapolate how any job in society is vital to your survival. It's kind of like the pre-med volunteer working in the hospital gift shop that writes their essay trying to portray their commitment as being life-saving and extremely vital to the hospital.

I'm assuming celebrities, athletes, and the Kardashians definitely deserve their millions of dollars, which is considerably more than any doctor will earn. But people earn what the market gives. I'm not here to judge who should earn money and who shouldn't, nor am I here to say that people should spread the wealth or anything like that.

But people do get used to their profession receiving a certain amount of money. There's going to be considerable kickback from the group if that happens. Do you honestly think that just about every economics and business major at the Ivies would try for Investment Banking if it didn't pay as much as it did? If it paid $50k a year (in-line with a lot of entry-level management jobs) yet had the same 80-100 hour work weeks, do you honestly think people would still do it?

Your entire premise is flawed.

People in general do not think doctors are grossly overpaid. They do think certain doctors, e.g. PRS/ROAD/Derm are a little more upfront about the desire to work as little as possible and get paid as much as possible.

Further, the sentiment from your colleagues, that you shouldn't be in it for the money, is well founded. As you indicated, there are plenty of other fields with a higher pay off for a lessor investment. Doctors rarely become billionaires.

 

[yappy]

My one case yes; however, in aggregate do you agree that physician services add alot to the economy by allowing human capital to be maximized?

I'll play devil's advocate. Had you died, your position would surely have been filled by another equal, albeit marginally lower quality, candidate. While your potential as a child is indeterminate, society is minimally affected by small changes.

BTW: I think we're getting a little off topic. The Jersey Shore vs physician comparison is not useful because, as someone already pointed out, they're completely different industries and merit =//= higher pay. This thread was started to raise the question about why some think it's bad to want to maximize their earnings as a physician. Personally, I don't think it's wrong for someone to want to earn a good living as a doctor. Nothing is guaranteed; but, there is nothing wrong with trying.

 

[yuiness]

People in general do not think doctors are grossly overpaid. They do think certain doctors, e.g. PRS/ROAD/Derm are a little more upfront about the desire to work as little as possible and get paid as much as possible.

I'm not sure that the specialties you mentioned actually represent a "desire to work as little as possible and get paid as much as possible." While the ROAD specialties are certainly considered to be "cushy" as far as the field of medicine goes, this is only in comparison to other fields. By most normal standards, many of these specialists are still working long hours, working odd hours, and making an important difference.

I'm also not sure why PRS is even on here. It may not be as hardcore as, say, trauma surgery, but most plastic surgeons work very hard, at least from my (admittedly limited) academic center experience. They take trauma call for face/hand on nights/weekends, are in the OR 7:30-5 or 6 on OR days, and in clinic 8-5 with paperwork afterward on clinic days. Not to mention that their training is 6 years long, including ~3 years of gen surg residency. In addition, the average Plastic Surgeon makes less than the average Neurosurgeon, Orthopedic Surgeon, and any number of other surgical subspecialists.

 

[yuiness]

Regarding the OP's question, I think that many medical students care as much about the prestige of being a doctor as the salary. They care about what people think of them, and they don't want to be viewed as selfish money-grubbers who are only in it for the money. There's so much emphasis on going in to medicine for the "right reasons" as a premed and applicant, that I think many of us are a little brain-washed into thinking that you can ONLY be a good doctor if you live like a monk.

I also think that in medicine, more than many other high-paying fields, we're exposed to many people who we would consider to be worse off than ourselves. We're constantly surrounded by patients who are under-educated and under-insured, and who would consider even a quarter of an attending's salary a fortune. Even in the suburbs, chances are that few patients will be making as much as a doctor. We're selected to be a caring and empathetic bunch, and we end up spending a good chunk of our time looking at ourselves through their eyes.

 

[DrOwnage]

I read a small essay someone wrote for a similar thread a while ago and I found it to be very well written. Thought I would share it...

It always amazes me that for some reason, people (and many bleeding heart medical students) associate the financial prospering of physicians with evil. As if a doctor who has worked hard, helped lots of patients, and earned a good living along the way is somehow less of a good person than another physician simply because that other physician made less. And such thinking implies that any physician who has made a lot of money has done so by taking advantage of sick people, and this is simply not true. You know what else isn't true? The notion that being paid less for less than you're worth somehow makes you a good person. Utter nonsense. It simply means that you allow yourself to be taken advantage of. In almost every other profession or occupation, doing something for less than its worth doesn't make you noble, it makes you look foolish.

I don't understand the logic employed by those who say physicians should not make a lot of money, and its not just because I would like to make good money (although I won't deny it). I don't understand why people are perfectly ok with an absolute airhead like Kim Kardashian making tens of millions of dollars a year (while helping no one, and appearing in shows that appeal to the foulest natures of human beings, not to mention shows that if I watch make me dumber by the second), and yet people are outraged at the thought of a doctor making too much money (while working much longer hours, and trying to help many people). If you actually think about it, it's kind of a sad commentary on the things we place value on as a society. We've learned to celebrate decadence, hedonism, and rapidly-earned wealth (or wealth not truly EARNED at all), while despising and resenting hard work, sacrifice, and higher education.

Perhaps a better example of this double standard is someone like Jim Skinner, CEO of McDonalds (until tomorrow, at any rate). He vastly increased McDonald's sales (by something like 18-20 billion dollars), and as a result was granted a 5 year compensation package of something like 70 million dollars (including other positions and holdings), and was celebrated for his success in magazines and tv shows, including forbes. Now, why in the world are people perfectly ok paying this man HUNDREDS of times what a physician makes, while he produces and sells a product that arguably only DECREASES the quality of people's lives and makes them sicker, and then those same consumers squawk when the physician they hire to fix the damage done to them by McDonald's makes a couple hundred thousand a year? Forgive the language and the run-on sentence, but that is bat$h!t crazy.

It seems to me, that if people are ok with someone making millions while helping no one but themselves, then it stands to reason that they would be willing to adequately compensate someone who has worked extremely hard, sacrificed a lot, and helps A LOT of people (and by the way, has a knowledge/skill set that people not only desire, but in many cases desperately need.) People these days have no problem whatsoever spending thousands of dollars in pursuit of things that trash their health, like fatty food and television, but god forbid they be asked to shell out any money to actually IMPROVE their health. All the while, the agent that improves their health, namely the doctor, is endlessly criticized for making a living by providing such a measly service as PROLONGING THEIR LIFE.

I am not impressed with those med students who shoot themselves in the foot, claiming to be happy making less, while vilifying anyone who tries to make more. I do not think they are noble OR good-intentioned. Rather, quite the opposite. Am I the only one who finds these people to be preachy, self-aggrandizing, overly-zealous, and tiresome to be around? Who are they to impose their standards of happiness and prosperity upon other students or physicians? If they wish to accept less compensation, that is of course their right...but it is a whole other matter to begin to actively sabotage and undermine the attempts of other physicians to prosper to the best of their ability, and to belittle and criticize their efforts to do so. At that point, the bleeding hearts have become oppressors, imposing their own arbitrary standards of value and happiness upon others, and then vilifying their victims as greedy profiteers for not being as ignorantly happy in poverty as they themselves are. Just because one bleeding heart numbskull is satisfied making only 80 grand a year, does not mean that all doctors will be, and nor does it mean that all doctors SHOULD be. We are all free to define the terms of our own happiness and satisfaction, and to pursue it as such.

Perhaps these self-sabotaging med students are happy living lives as monastic priests do, taking vows of poverty, refusing to find pleasure in material comforts or monetary compensation. That is perfectly, fine, and can even be admirable (although I do not particularly agree, I find it to be a form of self-hatred, a kind of groveling self-abasement). But that is still their right. Certainly, not everyone defines happiness as a big house on a hill, with an expensive european sports car in the driveway. But some of us do, and it is not the responsibility of self-flagellating monk-like med students to tell us that OUR version of happiness is illegitimate. And it is certainly not their job to prevent us from earning it.

The bottom line, doctors work hard, they truly care about the people in their care, and they are in possession of a skill set that is in high demand. They have every right to expect good compensation for their efforts. I'm not even going to begin going into all the other reasons why physicians should be well paid (to attract and foster the abilities of the best possible candidates, the ramifications for patient care, the educational costs, etc.), because to talk about those would turn an already long post into a veritable textbook. Suffice it to say, I think there are far more arguments that could be made in favor of high physician compensation than there are arguments that could be made against it. "Because it makes you feel all gooey inside" may work as justification for some self-hating med students who feel the need to abase themselves, but for the rest of us, we may need something a little more substantial than feelings to pay our med school loans, and get our future kids through college.

 

[notbobtrustme]

A lot of people save lives that aren't doctors. Firefighters, policemen, emergency medical technicians, just to name a few. If a firefighter had pulled you from a burning building and saved your life, he would have done the same for the economy as that surgeon did. So doesn't he deserve as much as the surgeon based on your logic?

You can be any of those after finishing high school. The training in becoming a physician is more than "can you lift this" and "can you follow these instructions."

 

[peteB]

You can be any of those after finishing high school. The training in becoming a physician is more than "can you lift this" and "can you follow these instructions."

That's true, but the original poster was referring only to the point that doctors save lives, not the training. I answered that doctors do save lives, but that is not enough to justify their pay because lots of other professions also save lives for much less pay.

However, training isn't enough to merit pay in our society as pointed out above, as there are many people- like entertainers, who have no more than a high school diploma, and make many times the salary of an average doctor.

 

[MsKrispyKreme]

I think residents are significantly underpaid, and physicians - especially surgeons - should be paid much more as well.

So much poop...

 

[ayushman80]

I am well aware that physician salaries are not the cause of health care costs spiraling out of control. However, I have heard convincing arguments that it would benefit health if the reduce the salary gap between specialties (and that suggestion usually involves some cuts to the top).

Pay primary care more not others less.

 

[VenusinFurs]

I'm not sure that the specialties you mentioned actually represent a "desire to work as little as possible and get paid as much as possible." While the ROAD specialties are certainly considered to be "cushy" as far as the field of medicine goes, this is only in comparison to other fields. By most normal standards, many of these specialists are still working long hours, working odd hours, and making an important difference.

I'm also not sure why PRS is even on here. It may not be as hardcore as, say, trauma surgery, but most plastic surgeons work very hard, at least from my (admittedly limited) academic center experience. They take trauma call for face/hand on nights/weekends, are in the OR 7:30-5 or 6 on OR days, and in clinic 8-5 with paperwork afterward on clinic days. Not to mention that their training is 6 years long, including ~3 years of gen surg residency. In addition, the average Plastic Surgeon makes less than the average Neurosurgeon, Orthopedic Surgeon, and any number of other surgical subspecialists.

Academic center is the key word here.

 

[HughMyron]

These threads...

Look, being a doctor means 8-11 years of post-college training and around half a million in debt. Remember that in Residency, you won't earn enough money to pay back the principle on the loan. Your net worth will be NEGATIVE for many years after medical school.

The doctor with a Bentley probably came from a wealthy family. Most doctors live middle or lower-middle class lives for many years. Financially speaking, it makes more sense to be a truck driver than to do many of the lower-paid medical specialties such as FP, Psych, OB/GYN, Peds, etc.


I don't know where this idea that "doctors make tons of money" even came from. It really isn't true anymore.

Sorry to disappoint you... We're MS-1s. Maybe along the way people will change their tune. I just wonder where and when. I still hear classmates saying "money is baaaaaaaddddddd" all the time.

The problem is that money is a taboo subject in medical school essays. I guess the essay writers somehow deluded themselves into believing the drivel they wrote about serving the community and doing research and whatever.

Also, its probably taboo for people to mention money to their peers in medical school as well.

 

[Perrotfish]

These threads...

Look, being a doctor means 8-11 years of post-college training and around half a million in debt. Remember that in Residency, you won't earn enough money to pay back the principle on the loan. Your net worth will be NEGATIVE for many years after medical school.

The doctor with a Bentley probably came from a wealthy family. Most doctors live middle or lower-middle class lives for many years.


I don't know where this idea that "doctors make tons of money" even came from. It really isn't true anymore.

Its not unusual for a midrange specialty like anesthesiology to make 350K out of residency working 40 hours a week. Even with several hundred thousand in debt factored in, anyone who thinks thats average, or close, is generally grossly overestimating what others make or grossly underestimating the opportunity cost of other top earning professions.

 

[HughMyron]

Its not unusual for a midrange specialty like anesthesiology to make 350K out of residency working 40 hours a week. Even with several hundred thousand in debt factored in, anyone who thinks thats average, or close, is generally grossly overestimating what others make or grossly underestimating the opportunity cost of other top earning professions.

I thought that's only for Derm...I always heard that Anesthesiologists worked 70+ hrs/week even after Residency.

 

[Perrotfish]

I thought that's only for Derm...I always heard that Anesthesiologists worked 70+ hrs/week even after Residency.

I don't know anyone who works 70 hours/week after residency. There are, of course, a few people who try to make partner in a practice, which is one last little bit of hazing where you work even more than residency, but thats over in a couple of years at the most. I feel like most people outside of academic average 50 hours/week, except for the shift work guys like NICU and EM who work even less. There is, of course, a kind of person who is attrect to academic medicine and is content to work 60+ hours/week teaching,reseraching, and working as a physician for the rest of their lives for, weirdly, less pay than a private practice doc makes. I have no idea why anyone would do that.

 

[flodhi1]

OP, I tend to avoid this topic and quite frankly I really did not want to reply to this thread but comparing a physician to a business or a lawyer is just wrong. There's a lot more to a physician than wanting to make money and if someone doesn't realize that oh well.

 

[HughMyron]

I don't know anyone who works 70 hours/week after residency. There are, of course, a few people who try to make partner in a practice, which is one last little bit of hazing where you work even more than residency, but thats over in a couple of years at the most. I feel like most people outside of academic average 50 hours/week, except for the shift work guys like NICU and EM who work even less. There is, of course, a kind of person who is attrect to academic medicine and is content to work 60+ hours/week teaching,reseraching, and working as a physician for the rest of their lives for, weirdly, less pay than a private practice doc makes. I have no idea why anyone would do that.

What about surgical specialties/subspecialties?

 

[HughMyron]

Your entire premise is flawed.

People in general do not think doctors are grossly overpaid. They do think certain doctors, e.g. PRS/ROAD/Derm are a little more upfront about the desire to work as little as possible and get paid as much as possible.

Further, the sentiment from your colleagues, that you shouldn't be in it for the money, is well founded. As you indicated, there are plenty of other fields with a higher pay off for a lessor investment. Doctors rarely become billionaires.

Excuse me, what is a PRS?

 

[Acoustic]

I read a small essay someone wrote for a similar thread a while ago and I found it to be very well written. Thought I would share it...

It always amazes me that for some reason, people (and many bleeding heart medical students) associate the financial prospering of physicians with evil. As if a doctor who has worked hard, helped lots of patients, and earned a good living along the way is somehow less of a good person than another physician simply because that other physician made less. And such thinking implies that any physician who has made a lot of money has done so by taking advantage of sick people, and this is simply not true. You know what else isn't true? The notion that being paid less for less than you're worth somehow makes you a good person. Utter nonsense. It simply means that you allow yourself to be taken advantage of. In almost every other profession or occupation, doing something for less than its worth doesn't make you noble, it makes you look foolish.

...

The bottom line, doctors work hard, they truly care about the people in their care, and they are in possession of a skill set that is in high demand. They have every right to expect good compensation for their efforts. I'm not even going to begin going into all the other reasons why physicians should be well paid (to attract and foster the abilities of the best possible candidates, the ramifications for patient care, the educational costs, etc.), because to talk about those would turn an already long post into a veritable textbook. Suffice it to say, I think there are far more arguments that could be made in favor of high physician compensation than there are arguments that could be made against it. "Because it makes you feel all gooey inside" may work as justification for some self-hating med students who feel the need to abase themselves, but for the rest of us, we may need something a little more substantial than feelings to pay our med school loans, and get our future kids through college.

This needs to be published.

 

[Siggy]

I wounder how much the legions of nurse managers who put up posters in the nursing stations make. Cut those people. After all, do we really need a poster that nurses are answering call lights sooner? You know... basically celebrating them for actually doing their job.

 

[Perrotfish]

What about surgical specialties/subspecialties?

I feel like surgeons tends to attract a more workaholic crowd on average, but I know surgeons who negotiated for more time rather than more money. When you're an in demand profession you have a lot of leverage to negotiate for the benfits you want.

 

[Perrotfish]

I wounder how much the legions of nurse managers who put up posters in the nursing stations make. Cut those people. After all, do we really need a poster that nurses are answering call lights sooner? You know... basically celebrating them for actually doing their job.

As a rule, it seems like everyone in the hopsital likes to roll their eyes at what an unnecessary expense every other person in the hospital is. Some of those people might be right, but be aware that the less you understand someone's job the more likely it is that your criticism is going to be unfair.

 

[bala1]

I don't know the exact answers to these questions, but I do see your point. Obviously if we cut doctors pay we will also have to reduce the cost of medical school, or reduce the number of years or something. I didn't say that we wouldn't have to do that. All I said is that it is possible to get doctors cheaper. However, it would require a major overhaul of the medical education process and the legal system with respect to malpractice.

It isnt just the financial burden. Its the emotional burden/cost that is particularly brutal. The indignation, humiliation for YEARS that particularly makes physicians bitter. The im gonna be out on my ass if i dont ace this test, exam, make this or that person happy etc... for almost ten years..

 

[peteB]

It isnt just the financial burden. Its the emotional burden/cost that is particularly brutal. The indignation, humiliation for YEARS that particularly makes physicians bitter. The im gonna be out on my ass if i dont ace this test, exam, make this or that person happy etc... for almost ten years..

Physicians are not the only ones that endure abuse and stress. Plenty of other jobs involve abusive bosses/clients, hostile work environments, lots of stress, and are particularly cut throat. Most jobs out there involve sucking up for your entire career. At least at the end of residency, physicians are free to leave and start their own practice, and they can make good money. A lot of people are stuck in those situations forever, and don't even earn much money comparatively.

 

[yappy]

peteB, we already covered this:

A CPR trained lifeguard sustaining a life isn't the same as a neurosurgeon removing a tumor.

Are you, a third year medical student, seriously making these half-thought arguments or are you just being contrarian?

That's true, but the original poster was referring only to the point that doctors save lives, not the training. I answered that doctors do save lives, but that is not enough to justify their pay because lots of other professions also save lives for much less pay.

However, training isn't enough to merit pay in our society as pointed out above, as there are many people- like entertainers, who have no more than a high school diploma, and make many times the salary of an average doctor.

BTW: The notion of paying physicians less to get cheaper health care is like pulling a small level and hoping for a big change - it isn't going to happen.

Someone posted this video in another thread and THIS is what is going to reduce health care spending:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uPdkhMVdMQ[/YOUTUBE]

Get insurance, HR, IT, custodial services, public safety, upper level management, middle management, administrators, compliance specialists, coders, most of marketing, nursing admins, non-payers etc. etc. etc. out of the health care delivery model. There is too much overhead!

 

[HughMyron]

It isnt just the financial burden. Its the emotional burden/cost that is particularly brutal. The indignation, humiliation for YEARS that particularly makes physicians bitter. The im gonna be out on my ass if i dont ace this test, exam, make this or that person happy etc... for almost ten years..

Preclinical grades don't matter, and even if you get a 210 on the STEP you can find a job in medicine. That's more than you can say for any other career.