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I want to go MD and I'm willing to work hard for it. Currently my gpa is 3.04. (2.55 from 7 years ago, 3.09 at a CC after that, 3.49 for my BSN)

Currently taking several science courses with hopes of 4.0 throughout.

Won't take MCAT until I've finished all science prereqs.

I am an ICU RN with several years caring for patients. I volunteer at local clinics/public events and I am going to Africa on a medical mission trip. My PCP is willing to let me shadow and my intensivist in the ICU has offered a LOR.

What else can I do to make myself a more attractive candidate? My ultimate goal is to make it into my state school.

Any and all advice is appreciated.


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Even with the 40 credit hours that will come from pre-reqs, assuming you get a 4.0, your GPA will still be on the low side to be competitive the majority of MD programs. You'll have to be smart about your school selection, but that's year away so don't get too worried about that yet.

While your heart is set on MD, you're a good candidate for DO. Plus, you have the opportunity for grade replacement which can help your GPA.

Search for other BSN to MD threads that are on here and look at what they did to make themselves competitive.
 
I want to go MD and I'm willing to work hard for it. Currently my gpa is 3.04. (2.55 from 7 years ago, 3.09 at a CC after that, 3.49 for my BSN)
Unfortunately there's no good formula for how to recover from a low GPA. Bottom line is that you're competing with squeaky clean inexperienced 21 year olds who look less risky than you. There is a substantial body of work on SDN from those who have recovered from similar GPA damage, and imho a willingness to devote hours to finding that commentary is the difference between getting somewhere and getting nowhere.

Ideally you live in Texas, Michigan or Louisiana where there is emphasis on recent coursework. If you live in California, um, move.
Currently taking several science courses with hopes of 4.0 throughout.
Yes, but that's very inflexible. You never got a 4.0 before, correct? The other students in the premed courses all think they're gettinga 4.0 as well (same in med school). So think in smaller pieces, such as how many days in a row you met your new studying standards, and for any given exam did you perform to your new standards. You'll hit academic speed bumps constantly for the next decade. So have a flexible attitude that allows for quick recovery and doesn't throw you straight into despair if you get a B. Yes, focus on getting A's, just be smarter than just that one thing.

Hopefully you're doing this new coursework at a university. Take the high road. There's no room for more doubt on your academic record.
Won't take MCAT until I've finished all science prereqs.
Good.
I am an ICU RN with several years caring for patients. I volunteer at local clinics/public events and I am going to Africa on a medical mission trip. My PCP is willing to let me shadow and my intensivist in the ICU has offered a LOR.
You have no problems other than academics. Your experience in the ICU has certainly shown you that some doctors are dumb as dirt, and if they can do it, why can't you. The problem is that those dumb as dirt doctors are between you and a med school acceptance, and their opinion of the nurses that have held them accountable is "what a bitch...wouldn't get off my ass." So your experience as a nurse (which qualifies you SO MUCH MORE than the bull**** ECs that 21 year olds have) can actually be a detriment. There's no way to predict which kind of eyeballs will be looking at your app.

You'll earn your med school seat on academics. You have to win the game by the rules made for 21 year olds.
What else can I do to make myself a more attractive candidate?
Don't be in a hurry. Don't measure yourself by the traditional yardstick. Think long term. Getting into med school is NOT the hard part.

For instance: consider doing a rigorous grad program that gets you pubs, after you do really well in the undergrad prereqs. That's a nice big fat doubt eraser for med school apps that helps big time with residency apps.
My ultimate goal is to make it into my state school.
That's the smartest way to stay out of crazy debt. But you'll want to plan on applying very broadly, because you depend on human eyeballs to overlook your past, and most won't, because they don't have to when there's a pile of 5000+ apps. Having only one state school is some rough math.

You can make friends with DO now, or do it later. It's gonna happen. A good first step is to read the Gevitz book.

Best of luck to you.
 
Thanks for the advice! That's exactly what I was looking for.


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Advice above is invaluable! Definitely consider DO, as you'll find them more friendly to lower gpa. The only things I'd add is, find a DO/MD to shadow outside of your ICU/nursing work. Also, take biochemistry before taking the MCAT, as it will make a significant difference in your score.

An MD adcom who was a biased sort (putting it nicely) once said: Shadowing is being invited to see inside the bubble where nursing and everything else is outside the bubble and if you want to be in the bubble then formally shadow a physician and then get a rec letter. Right or wrong that is how some feel.

Best of Luck and it looks like you are approaching this the right way by developing a plan first, so keep it up!
 
For instance: consider doing a rigorous grad program that gets you pubs, after you do really well in the undergrad prereqs. That's a nice big fat doubt eraser for med school apps that helps big time with residency apps.

I had not thought of this. Sounds like a great idea! Not really sure where to start looking for such a program. Can you think of any off hand?


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Advice above is invaluable! Definitely consider DO, as you'll find them more friendly to lower gpa. The only things I'd add is, find a DO/MD to shadow outside of your ICU/nursing work. Also, take biochemistry before taking the MCAT, as it will make a significant difference in your score.

An MD adcom who was a biased sort (putting it nicely) once said: Shadowing is being invited to see inside the bubble where nursing and everything else is outside the bubble and if you want to be in the bubble then formally shadow a physician and then get a rec letter. Right or wrong that is how some feel.

Best of Luck and it looks like you are approaching this the right way by developing a plan first, so keep it up!

Thanks! I have thought about DO but my heart is truly set on MD


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Thanks! I have thought about DO but my heart is truly set on MD


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Can understand that completely, as I worked in a hospital and was there once. Since you have the benefit of time I'd still recommend learning a bit more about DO before completely excluding that path, as that may end up being your only realistic shot.

Do a lot of reading on Dr Midlife's posts as she has some of the best advice I've seen here on recovering from a low gpa!!! Especially listen to the suggestions on what NOT to do, as some missteps can torpedo your chances forever. (e.g. rushing it, going Caribbean, making B's/C's in an SMP, etc)
 
Can understand that completely, as I worked in a hospital and was there once. Since you have the benefit of time I'd still recommend learning a bit more about DO before completely excluding that path, as that may end up being your only realistic shot.

Do a lot of reading on Dr Midlife's posts as she has some of the best advice I've seen here on recovering from a low gpa!!! Especially listen to the suggestions on what NOT to do, as some missteps can torpedo your chances forever. (e.g. rushing it, going Caribbean, making B's/C's in an SMP, etc)

Thanks I will do that


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Even with the 40 credit hours that will come from pre-reqs, assuming you get a 4.0, your GPA will still be on the low side to be competitive the majority of MD programs. You'll have to be smart about your school selection, but that's year away so don't get too worried about that yet.

While your heart is set on MD, you're a good candidate for DO. Plus, you have the opportunity for grade replacement which can help your GPA.

Search for other BSN to MD threads that are on here and look at what they did to make themselves competitive.

Thanks for the advice!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
 
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I had not thought of this. Sounds like a great idea! Not really sure where to start looking for such a program. Can you think of any off hand?
Um, pretty much any university is going to have masters degrees.

The kicker is that you need a PI (principle investigator) who will get you published. You're dead in the water without one. Doesn't matter if you get accepted to a <difficult bioscience> masters at <prestigious school> and get in the lab of somebody famous, if <famous researcher> is a dick who doesn't give a crap about you. Problem is that it's REALLY hard to find out whether a PI is a dick or not before you're in too deep to get out. So you need to get where you can get the inside info, either from former students or current lab members or Pubmed/Facebook cross-stalking etc.

Start by picking some universities (at least one with a med school) and find some grad programs such as microbiology, neuroscience, genetics etc. Read until you've wrapped your brain around how grad work in science is done. (When are you supposed to apply? How long is the program? What funding is available?) Work until you can connect the dots to which faculty members are actively publishing, and seek out opportunities to network with those PIs. Use your prereq classmates and teachers to help you understand if you get lost. I'd probably recommend looking at pharm (you actually know what atropine is), pulm (vent settings), and micro (you know what c.diff smells like). Just understand that your burden is proving your academics so don't go with soft science. But you need to work on something you're at least a LITTLE bit interested in.

Lab vs. clinical research is another kicker. Bench labwork is the gold standard for research. But it's the hardest for getting a paper, because you have no idea what you're doing until you've invested multiple years. Clinical research can pigeonhole you into doing stats & consents & IRBs and that's not proving your academics. You want to be doing horrifying things to some mice, or at least to worms. You want some heated discussions about the behavior of aortic endothelial cells in vitro vs. in vivo that involve ordering pizza and staying until 2 am.

Some made up examples of co-authored papers you'd have on your CV before med school if you do it right:
"Trabecular breakdown after extended blunt trauma in fibulas of diabetic mice"
"Increased calcium channel upregulation in urothelial cells treated in vitro with tamoxifen"
"Sublime slime: a novel algal biofilm with anti-inflammation properties"

Really. I totally just made those up. I'm on the other side of where you want to be, and I know all those words. You will too. But for now you most likely have no idea what any of it means. But just based on the titles, these would be relatively short projects that involve doing long hours of scutwork and number crunching and painful drafting of manuscripts in support of a PI who needs to keep his NIH funding and can pay you an itty bitty stipend and give you an LOR and mostly just needs your labor.

Again, doing a research masters is ONE way to get a better med school app after academic damage. Most med school applicants THINK they have research experience, which means they washed petri dishes that one time and went to that one IRB meeting. Most med school applicants did NOT publish anything. Very few med schools EXPECT you to have pubs.

Also find out what an SMP is in the postbac forum, down under interdisciplinary.

Best of luck to you.
 
Yes, but that's very inflexible. You never got a 4.0 before, correct? The other students in the premed courses all think they're gettinga 4.0 as well (same in med school). So think in smaller pieces, such as how many days in a row you met your new studying standards, and for any given exam did you perform to your new standards. You'll hit academic speed bumps constantly for the next decade. So have a flexible attitude that allows for quick recovery and doesn't throw you straight into despair if you get a B. Yes, focus on getting A's, just be smarter than just that one thing.

This might be the best advice I've seen in a long time. Good call, Midlife
 
Thanks! I have thought about DO but my heart is truly set on MD


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yeah no offense you're in the beggars can't be choosers category, and besides DO discrimination really bugging the **** out of me ANYWAY (I'll point out I'm an MD), coming from non-trads with poor GPAs really rubs me wrong. I guess I sorta feel like any applicant's passion and drive should be such that they'll take ANY admission to medical school and ANY training program so they can get a license and put a hand to a patient (or what have your for our rads/path/psych brethren). They'd do a DO and FM residency in Alaska if it came down to that. If you're too much pickier than that it just seems so ungrateful for what a privilege it is to get in anywhere. The dedication doesn't impress me otherwise.

The only people I think have the dedication that they should even bother with becoming a physician are more than willing to go DO and then go into primary care, *if* that was worst case scenario. I'm not saying you shouldn't have your heart set on other specialities or what have you.

Since you are a nurse, you will need to do a LOT of shadowing with a few different docs and be able to clearly articulate what makes being a physician different than a nurse drawing on SPECIFIC experiences coming from the physician viewpoint. You need to explain why the switch in a compelling way.
 
yeah no offense you're in the beggars can't be choosers category, and besides DO discrimination really bugging the **** out of me ANYWAY (I'll point out I'm an MD), coming from non-trads with poor GPAs really rubs me wrong. I guess I sorta feel like any applicant's passion and drive should be such that they'll take ANY admission to medical school and ANY training program so they can get a license and put a hand to a patient (or what have your for our rads/path/psych brethren). They'd do a DO and FM residency in Alaska if it came down to that. If you're too much pickier than that it just seems so ungrateful for what a privilege it is to get in anywhere. The dedication doesn't impress me otherwise.

The only people I think have the dedication that they should even bother with becoming a physician are more than willing to go DO and then go into primary care, *if* that was worst case scenario. I'm not saying you shouldn't have your heart set on other specialities or what have you.

Since you are a nurse, you will need to do a LOT of shadowing with a few different docs and be able to clearly articulate what makes being a physician different than a nurse drawing on SPECIFIC experiences coming from the physician viewpoint. You need to explain why the switch in a compelling way.

Thank you for your advice. I do not have an aversion to DO, however I do have a passion for critical care. I feel that MD would set me up best for a residency position in this field.


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Um, pretty much any university is going to have masters degrees.

The kicker is that you need a PI (principle investigator) who will get you published. You're dead in the water without one. Doesn't matter if you get accepted to a <difficult bioscience> masters at <prestigious school> and get in the lab of somebody famous, if <famous researcher> is a dick who doesn't give a crap about you. Problem is that it's REALLY hard to find out whether a PI is a dick or not before you're in too deep to get out. So you need to get where you can get the inside info, either from former students or current lab members or Pubmed/Facebook cross-stalking etc.

Start by picking some universities (at least one with a med school) and find some grad programs such as microbiology, neuroscience, genetics etc. Read until you've wrapped your brain around how grad work in science is done. (When are you supposed to apply? How long is the program? What funding is available?) Work until you can connect the dots to which faculty members are actively publishing, and seek out opportunities to network with those PIs. Use your prereq classmates and teachers to help you understand if you get lost. I'd probably recommend looking at pharm (you actually know what atropine is), pulm (vent settings), and micro (you know what c.diff smells like). Just understand that your burden is proving your academics so don't go with soft science. But you need to work on something you're at least a LITTLE bit interested in.

Lab vs. clinical research is another kicker. Bench labwork is the gold standard for research. But it's the hardest for getting a paper, because you have no idea what you're doing until you've invested multiple years. Clinical research can pigeonhole you into doing stats & consents & IRBs and that's not proving your academics. You want to be doing horrifying things to some mice, or at least to worms. You want some heated discussions about the behavior of aortic endothelial cells in vitro vs. in vivo that involve ordering pizza and staying until 2 am.

Some made up examples of co-authored papers you'd have on your CV before med school if you do it right:
"Trabecular breakdown after extended blunt trauma in fibulas of diabetic mice"
"Increased calcium channel upregulation in urothelial cells treated in vitro with tamoxifen"
"Sublime slime: a novel algal biofilm with anti-inflammation properties"

Really. I totally just made those up. I'm on the other side of where you want to be, and I know all those words. You will too. But for now you most likely have no idea what any of it means. But just based on the titles, these would be relatively short projects that involve doing long hours of scutwork and number crunching and painful drafting of manuscripts in support of a PI who needs to keep his NIH funding and can pay you an itty bitty stipend and give you an LOR and mostly just needs your labor.

Again, doing a research masters is ONE way to get a better med school app after academic damage. Most med school applicants THINK they have research experience, which means they washed petri dishes that one time and went to that one IRB meeting. Most med school applicants did NOT publish anything. Very few med schools EXPECT you to have pubs.

Also find out what an SMP is in the postbac forum, down under interdisciplinary.

Best of luck to you.

Thank you for taking the time to provide such detailed advice. It is greatly appreciated.


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I'm very open to being corrected by someone more knowledgeable on the following:

Obviously go MD if you can, but being a DO won't lock you out of critical care. Critical care is a fellowship that can be pursued from internal med, anesthesia, or emergency med. DOs have no prob matching anesthesia and EM. Internal med poses more of an uphill battle for a place with in house fellowships, but it still isn't THAT bad. Critical care is cool and you can't be a slouch to break in, but it's not crazy competitive interventional cardiology, or GI. I believe critical care is less competitive than pulm/cc, but you may want to ask people in the field about those specifics.

In short, unless you want to go into a surgery or derm, I don't think it's worth trying to do an intense masters program and giving up 1-2 years of your life and tons of debt for MD especially when even that doesn't guarantee it.



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I'm very open to being corrected by someone more knowledgeable on the following:

Obviously go MD if you can, but being a DO won't lock you out of critical care. Critical care is a fellowship that can be pursued from internal med, anesthesia, or emergency med. DOs have no prob matching anesthesia and EM. Internal med poses more of an uphill battle for a place with in house fellowships, but it still isn't THAT bad. Critical care is cool and you can't be a slouch to break in, but it's not crazy competitive interventional cardiology, or GI. I believe critical care is less competitive than pulm/cc, but you may want to ask people in the field about those specifics.

In short, unless you want to go into a surgery or derm, I don't think it's worth trying to do an intense masters program and giving up 1-2 years of your life and tons of debt for MD especially when even that doesn't guarantee it.



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Thank you Ho0v-man. You've given me good advice more than once and I appreciate it. I had (falsely) assumed that since the majority of DO physicians practice family medicine that many specialities were closed to them or very difficult to obtain.

CC, ER, and anesthesia are my passions in healthcare and where my experience is (at least from a nursing standpoint.) If these pathways are not closed to me then DO school is a much more attractive option.

I realize that passions change with time and experience, however this is a marathon for me, not a race. I hope to have my road mapped out as much as possible.


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Thank you Ho0v-man. You've given me good advice more than once and I appreciate it. I had (falsely) assumed that since the majority of DO physicians practice family medicine that many specialities were closed to them or very difficult to obtain.

CC, ER, and anesthesia are my passions in healthcare and where my experience is (at least from a nursing standpoint.) If these pathways are not closed to me then DO school is a much more attractive option.

I realize that passions change with time and experience, however this is a marathon for me, not a race. I hope to have my road mapped out as much as possible.


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Theres a match list thread over in osteo you might want to look at so you can see what's up. Yeah, there's lots of family med/IM/Peds but lots of solid matches, too. You'll have to try harder as DO, but it sure beats the alternative.


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I had (falsely) assumed that since the majority of DO physicians practice family medicine that many specialities were closed to them or very difficult to obtain.
The majority of DOs do NOT do FM. I think you mean to say that the majority of DOs do IM, FM or Peds, which add up to primary care (arguably also Psych & ObGyn). Of note, "majority" here for DOs is 52%.

MDs match into IM, FM or Peds at 39%. Gonna lose your mind over 52% vs. 39%? Hope not.

(USIMGs match primary care at 68%, FMGs 70%.)

What never gets discounted from the "primary care" count is all the folks who go on to specialize out of IM & Peds. I'm pretty sure they don't count IM prelim years as "primary care," but who knows.

For the record, the reason that "primary care" gets hyped is that the AMA & AOA do their gosh darnedest to make it look like US kids are being turned into primary care docs as fast as possible. Right.

NRMP match data: http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/
AOA match data: https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2016prgstats.html

2016 compiled for your convenience, requires a specific font so won't look right on your phone. There are more ways to slice it but this is all the categorical matches.
2016.......MD-Sr..MD-Prior..DO-NRMP..DO-AOA..US-IMG...FMG..Total
IM..........3291.......117......498.....506....1016..2013...6938
Peds........1829........41......353......65.....201...250...2675
EM..........1486........73......224.....302......87....23...1894
FM..........1467.......125......381.....590.....727...382...3083
Overall....17057.......732.....2396....2255....2869..3769..29078

FM+IM+Peds..6587.......283.....1232....1161....1944..2645..12696
% of match__38.6%_____38.7%____51.4%___51.5%___67.8%_70.2%__43.7%
 
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BTW have you noticed how many of the ICU attending physicians have PhDs? In my (very limited) experience about half are MD/PhD. An interest in critical care definitely argues in favor of research and pubs before med school.

With respect to MD/PhD, the cushy way to get there is MSTP, which is a free ride. It's common for med schools to offer a non-MSTP combined MD/PhD as well, with variety in funding stories.
 
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