What do you think?

[ANCAdoc]

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A friend of mine at another school is dyslexic and has attention deficit disorder. He has sought for more time on exams but has been met with a significant amount of resistance from the admins (he appealed all the way up to the dean and was denied). His grades first semester were very good (extra time given) but were lower second semester (no extra time permitted). His professors are sympathetic and would give him extra time but only if the admins approve it. He was recently evaluated by university docs and they recommended that he be given more time, but apparently the admins don't agree!

I would have thought being at a medical inst. people would be more sympathetic to things like this. Apparently I was wrong. I can't believe this is happening to him. The Deans tell him they think he just wants more time to get an unfair advantage. I thought the purpose of extra time was to give these individuals an equal chance to score well just like the rest of us.

What do you think about this situation? What would you do now if you were him?

 

[SoCuteMD]

Oh gosh.

(Dons flame-resistant suit. Hides in corner.)

 

[Megalofyia]

Some schools can be less sympathetic than others.
Even though his grades went down are they still pretty good? Is he still passing?

Since at this point the school has a lot of control of his future I'd play their game if he's grades in respect to his classmates was decent enough.

Has he heard of Marshall's Med H.E.L.P program? It is designed for medical students and residents with learning disabilities.
http://www.marshall.edu/help/services/medical/description.asp

 

[Miami_med]

"your friend" will have the same responsibilities as a doctor as other doctors. The patient won't wait to get sicker while your friend stares off into space or stumbles through uptodate. However, many people with these disabilities have overcome them and managed to function without special benefits. I have "a friend" who has been diagnosed with ADD. He is alloted the same time and responsibility as everyone else.

 

[Law2Doc]

"your friend" will have the same responsibilities as a doctor as other doctors. The patient won't wait to get sicker while your friend stares off into space or stumbles through uptodate. However, many people with these disabilities have overcome them and managed to function without special benefits. I have "a friend" who has been diagnosed with ADD. He is alloted the same time and responsibility as everyone else.

Agree. While reasonable accomodations should be made for disabilities, and what is reasonable will be determined by the school, part of being a physician is going to involve making decisions under time constraints, and a big part of the job description will involve reading and writing on the fly. That being said, at least one school has been willing to alter their curriculum to allow a blind student to become a physician, so some schools may be more flexible than others.

 

[Megalofyia]

There is a difference between sitting and taking an exam in a classroom and reacting and functioning as a physician. I would worry about the person who wanted accomodations 3rd and 4th year because they didn't have the skills to react quickly with patients and to think logically. But since you use different skills in a classroom, when studying, and during an exam you can not make judgements about how a person is going to function as a doctor cause they got an extra 30 min or hour on an exam during 1st and 2nd years.

 

[mzeroapplicant]

There is a difference between sitting and taking an exam in a classroom and reacting and functioning as a physician. I would worry about the person who wanted accomodations 3rd and 4th year because they didn't have the skills to react quickly with patients and to think logically. But since you use different skills in a classroom, when studying, and during an exam you can not make judgements about how a person is going to function as a doctor cause they got an extra 30 min or hour on an exam during 1st and 2nd years.

I definitely agree. Another poster mentioned that as a physician he would need to read and write quickly, but this can easily be compensated for on the job (e.g. for reading he uses a program like kurtweil to read the text out loud, for writing he dictates into a tape recorder). There are ways you can compensate for AD/HD in real life that aren't allowed in a test situation.

In fact, if he doesn't need extra time during 3rd and 4th year and he performs well, this would be a better indication of his future abilities as a physician than that he needed a few extra minutes on written exams (that he performed very well on) during M1 and M2.

And one final point: I'm not convinced that making decisions in the shortest time possible is the best model in every area of medicine. Certainly ER docs sometimes need to make decisions very quickly, but I think it could serve a radiologist, a psychiatrist, a neurologist, etc. very well to take the time to analyze a case more systematically (and therefore slowly) in a lot of situations. If you're constantly running around, you can start missing things.

 

[ANCAdoc]

From what I understand, people that are dyslexic with ADD are perfectly fine verbally and doing things on the fly but have problems when it comes to reading something and then answering questions. No question, people with this disability will have problems years 1 and 2 and on their standardized exams. Does that make them any less intelligent than the rest of us? Hardly. They actually excell years 3 and 4. I just feel bad for him that his course grades will not be reflective of his true potential.

 

[Law2Doc]

but have problems when it comes to reading something and then answering questions.

This is not a task that does not regularly occur in medicine. If you can't glance at the chart and make a snap decision about what to administer to someone crashing, without exascerbating the situation, causing an adverse drug combination or causing an allergic reaction, you are going to be a walking liability. Similarly folks are not infrequently glancing thru references on PDA to see what drugs are warranted and contraindicated, with only minutes to act.

 

[mzeroapplicant]

This is not a task that does not regularly occur in medicine. If you can't glance at the chart and make a snap decision about what to administer to someone crashing, without exascerbating the situation, causing an adverse drug combination or causing an allergic reaction, you are going to be a walking liability. Similarly folks are not infrequently glancing thru references on PDA to see what drugs are warranted and contraindicated, with only minutes to act.

Someone with ADD can run through a chart and find the excarcerbating condition or glance for a contraindication on a PDA. These are completely different tasks than sitting in an exam where you're reading/writing for an hour or more. In terms of dyslexia, it depends on how severe the condition is and how well you can compensate for it in certain situations. But in terms of ADHD, I just don't see that being an issue.

 

[Law2Doc]

Someone with ADD can run through a chart and find the excarcerbating condition or glance for a contraindication on a PDA. These are completely different tasks than sitting in an exam where you're reading/writing for an hour or more. In terms of dyslexia, it depends on how severe the condition is and how well you can compensate for it in certain situations. But in terms of ADHD, I just don't see that being an issue.

The OP's example had both, not one or the other.

 

[Megalofyia]

The OP's example had both, not one or the other.

mzeroapplicant had a point with mentioning the way the person has compensated and the severity.

 

[tupac_don]

A friend of mine at another school is dyslexic and has attention deficit disorder. He has sought for more time on exams but has been met with a significant amount of resistance from the admins (he appealed all the way up to the dean and was denied). His grades first semester were very good (extra time given) but were lower second semester (no extra time permitted). His professors are sympathetic and would give him extra time but only if the admins approve it. He was recently evaluated by university docs and they recommended that he be given more time, but apparently the admins don't agree!

I would have thought being at a medical inst. people would be more sympathetic to things like this. Apparently I was wrong. I can't believe this is happening to him. The Deans tell him they think he just wants more time to get an unfair advantage. I thought the purpose of extra time was to give these individuals an equal chance to score well just like the rest of us.

What do you think about this situation? What would you do now if you were him?

So what, if he is passing, he shouldn't be given more time. I mean if he has ADD and is dyslexic, but with extra time given, he can honor exams, vs. not if he is not given extra time. I am sorry then, he shouldn't be given extra time. If he is barely passing, given the extra time, then maybe consider it, but even then, there are other methods. Is he taking Ritalin or Concerta. Is he doing other things to speed himself up. I mean in life you are not gonna get extra time always, he is gotta deal with stuff. Not always are people gonna be symphatetic. If he really has a problem he better deal with it now, cuz come residency it will be much tougher.

 

[Miami_med]

ADHD and dyslexia are just mental difficulties that are common enough to be named. Perhaps we should use different lecture notes for visual vs. audio learners? Should we give all foreign born students tests in their own language? NO!!! of course not. A person has to learn to live with a disability or just a variable background within the system, especially when lives are on the line.

The real question being raised in previous posts has more to do with the value of the first two years as a reflective measure of physician capability. Maybe the system itself ought to be changed. That is a different question. If the first two years are important however, the OP's "friend" should learn how to handle them and adapt. He will not be the only one who has had to do this. 😉

 

[ANCAdoc]

I think the 'just go on and adapt' thinking is wrong. He was forced to adapt second semester and did OK. However, the issue still exists: Shouldn't everyone be given equal opportunity to score as best they can on these exams?

If someone has a learning disability, then it makes sense they will not have the same opportunity to score well on a timed exam like the rest of us. I think that is pretty straightforward. The MD's that are experts in the field that test him agree with the above statement.

Someone asked, and I do believe he is on medications. But, I don't know what that has to do with the issue at hand.

My friend has retained a lawyer to help him, but I am not so sure if this is a good idea. This might backfire on him later on, but kudos to him for stepping up and fighting for what he believes in.

 

[Miami_med]

I think the 'just go on and adapt' thinking is wrong. He was forced to adapt second semester and did OK. However, the issue still exists: Shouldn't everyone be given equal opportunity to score as best they can on these exams?

If someone has a learning disability, then it makes sense they will not have the same opportunity to score well on a timed exam like the rest of us. I think that is pretty straightforward. The MD's that are experts in the field that test him agree with the above statement.

Someone asked, and I do believe he is on medications. But, I don't know what that has to do with the issue at hand.

My friend has retained a lawyer to help him, but I am not so sure if this is a good idea. This might backfire on him later on, but kudos to him for stepping up and fighting for what he believes in.

No everyone shouldn't be given the opportunity to score the best that they can. If that were the case, every test would be a take-home test with an open book and the right to confer with other students. How is it fair to OTHER students, who may not have a stated disability but think slowly, that this student gets extra time.

I wish that I had rich parents who could pay for me. Oh well. I don't. I'll bet I could do better without the stress of student loans. I go to school in Miami, and I had a hurricane disrupt school twice last year. I'll be I could do better without the stress of hurricanes. "My friend" who has ADD would probably benefit from 20 minute lectures. He should get special short lectures right? Shouldn't I have the best opportunity to score as high as I can? This isn't how it works.

We all have advantages and disadvantages. We each bring our own complex set of characteristics with us. The point of medical school is to learn to be a doctor and prove that you can be a doctor. By creating a set standard and forcing everyone to abide by it, we eliminate many of the questions regarding qualification.

 

[ANCAdoc]

Simply thinking slowly is not a medical condition. That's the difference, Miamimed.

Everyone at your school has the stress of hurricanes, while not everyone has to deal with dyslexia or ADD. Thank goodness we don't. Besides, if you don't like the stress of hurricanes, then could easily of went to another school. You had a choice in that matter.

 

[Law2Doc]

Simply thinking slowly is not a medical condition. That's the difference, Miamimed.

There's a continuum -- some people are diagnosed. Some are not diagnosed but have the same disability, some are not as bad off, but still worse than the pack. Some are average, some are better than average. I think what Miami MD is saying is that the situation is really not optimized for everyone, no matter whether they have a documented disability or not. You set the bar in a certain place, make it the industry standard, and those who can get past it become doctors. There are absolutely disabilities with which it is impossible to perform the tasks necessary to be a physician. I'm not sure if this is one, but for the reasons suggested above in the thread, a severe inability to read and understand a chart or PDR entry at a glance would be problematic, and seem pretty analagous to timely reading and answering a typical med school test question to me.

 

[Miami_med]

Simply thinking slowly is not a medical condition. That's the difference, Miamimed.

Everyone at your school has the stress of hurricanes, while not everyone has to deal with dyslexia or ADD. Thank goodness we don't. Besides, if you don't like the stress of hurricanes, then could easily of went to another school. You had a choice in that matter.

I'm going to stop arguing now. I believe that my point has been made. I could have gone to another school, and "your friend" could have chosen a different profession without the strict academic requirements. We didn't. I'm sure "your friend" will manage regardless of whether extra time is granted. All of us worked hard to get here, and I am sure that the same ethic will pull "your friend" through school. He will prove that it is possible to complete medical school with ADD/Dyslexia with no special aid. That will be an accomplishment. Good for him. 🙂