What do you want to know about antipsychotics?

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clausewitz2

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So I'm a psychiatry resident who recently got tapped to deliver a lecture on antipsychotics to the IM residents at one of the outlying tentacles of the sprawling octopus that is our health system. The hospital in question does host an inpatient psych unit, so they definitely get medical transfers of folks with severe mental illness on a regular basis. An entire drug class is obviously an enormous topic and there are many nuances to it that will be totally irrelevant to this audience. I would like my lecture to be relevant, useful, and not put anyone to sleep or make them angry that they are not able to use this time to chart.

If you had a psychiatrist show up (who for the sake of argument knew psychopharmacology well), what would you want to know about these drugs? I do not really want to replicate a dry list of drugs and doses that could easily be replaced by a glance at UpToDate.

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in my work as a non-psychiatrist that seemingly was more saavy about some of these things, these were common and majorly bad mistakes I frequently saw, or questions that come up:

--providers that don't recognize not uncommon SE, EPS stuff like dystonia or akathisia, or how to assess for them, also how EPS can affect swallowing (really good to know)

--I've seen a patient that was delirious, yet past acute EtOH w/d, in whom Seroquel was being used, who just wiggled around in bed in a way that just did not look like delirium. They just were not getting better despite all other issues resolved. Chart review revealed they had a documented hx of akathisia from Seroquel. Oops. D'ced it and cleared quickly. This illustrates the sort of consideration that should be going on when using atypicals in this sort of situation.

--"restless legs" with atypicals is not always what that is, and how to address that (I've seen propranolol and know a psychiatrist who says the data shows it to be more effective than benzos which I've also seen used for it)

--care with atypicals in Parkinson's patients, such as seroquel (according to UTD atypicals in Parkinson's patients is not totally contraindicated, but care must be used)

--not recognizing that atypicals used in agitated delirium, are merely meant to address sx so one can safely address/wait to clear the underlying cause or normalize sleep patterns, and that sedating atypicals can prolong delirium, so it's a bit of a balancing act not to snow the patient with them, calibrate dose, and when it's doing more harm than good on these fronts

--theoretically it's psych that orders a fasting lipid panel etc, but sometimes that isn't happening, and while IM inpt is not necessarily the place for that to happen, sometimes it is pertinent to check these things, so any generalists need to know what to test/look for, especially given the risk of metabolic syndrome, possible HHS, pancreatitis from elevated triglycerides (yes, I've seen the connection between these medication-induced conditions and the atypical on the med list not recognized in the most timely fashion)

--guidelines for using different atypicals in the inpt setting, like seroquel vs zyprexa (what is the issue there? is it Qtc prolongation?), as well as starting doses and how high to go up on them for different indications (I frequently saw that no one really had an idea about this, even seasoned attendings)

--I see EKGs constantly ordered for everyone getting seroquel, but when things are borderline or there's more than one prolonging med on board, it seems like one of those tests that people know what to do when it's normalish, and no idea when it finds a problem (this doesn't render the test useless, but it's nice to know how to manage a more concerning result)

--I've seen the question, "to atypical or benzo, that is the question."

--side note, I've seen w/d vomiting and hives from rapid d/c of seroquel in someone habituated to them outpt, not common but probably good to know

--obvs contraindications to use in the inpt setting

I think the main thing, is to help those outside psych, recognize how psych drugs like the atypicals, can have somatic effects, how to recognize them, and how to deal with them.
 
excellent list above!

I would add:
-address QTc: paced rhythms and bundle branch blocks make a QTc appear long but they are typically just depolarization abnormalities that do not contraindicate these drugs. This has come up more than once from both pharmacy and various attendings who want to stop or not give an antipsychotic because of a "prolonged QTc". Shame to withhold an antipsychotic because that LBBB got you shook. Too many physicians just see the number "510" or something and then look no further.
 
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excellent list above!

I would add:
-address QTc: paced rhythms and bundle branch blocks make a QTc appear long but they are typically just depolarization abnormalities that do not contraindicate these drugs. This has come up more than once from both pharmacy and various attendings who want to stop or not give an antipsychotic because of a "prolonged QTc". Shame to withhold an antipsychotic because that LBBB got you shook. Too many physicians just see the number "510" or something and then look no further.
What is it? Subtract 50 from the QTc for a LBBB or RBBB?
 
I meant to add as well, if you're addressing IM residents, it is probably good to mention some things that are pertinent to outpt practice.

One being recognizing EPS and TD sx and how to address, as mentioned.

I see a lot of outpt providers managing atypicals outpt, which I think is a bit more complicated than what they may be doing with them in a short inpt non-psychiatric stay, where use mostly quite short term and mostly not for long term psychiatric problems but more commonly need for sedation.

Not ideal, but consider what you want non-psychiatrists to be doing with psychiatric patients on atypicals that aren't getting enough time with a psychiatric provider. Broad I know.

I've seen some providers who felt comfortable initiating atypicals in some patients and others who didn't. I can't say if they should have been or not.

So what do you think they should know for safety or to handle such patients and drugs assuming they can't get to a psychiatric provider in a timely fashion?
 
What is it? Subtract 50 from the QTc for a LBBB or RBBB?

quick and dirty way is to subtract whatever was "added" to the QRS by the BBB from the QT. e.g if a normal qrs is 80-100 and with a LBBB it is now 160, you can basically subtract say 60-80 from the QTc.

a paper from 2014 would have you use "modified QT" estimation in LBBB is QTm = QTb - 48.5% * (QRSb)

one from 2017: QT-LBBB = QTLBBB- (0.86 * QRSLBBB - 71)

*These are derived from LBBBs, specifically. If you do the math, you'll see that they arrive at a pretty similar number to the quick and dirty way. Main point is that these are depolarization abnormalities, not repolarization.
 
So I'm a psychiatry resident who recently got tapped to deliver a lecture on antipsychotics to the IM residents at one of the outlying tentacles of the sprawling octopus that is our health system. The hospital in question does host an inpatient psych unit, so they definitely get medical transfers of folks with severe mental illness on a regular basis. An entire drug class is obviously an enormous topic and there are many nuances to it that will be totally irrelevant to this audience. I would like my lecture to be relevant, useful, and not put anyone to sleep or make them angry that they are not able to use this time to chart.

If you had a psychiatrist show up (who for the sake of argument knew psychopharmacology well), what would you want to know about these drugs? I do not really want to replicate a dry list of drugs and doses that could easily be replaced by a glance at UpToDate.

I'd like to know how to get those patients to a psychiatrist faster.
 
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