What does "80% research" mean?

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tortuga87

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Many of us aspire to acquire an 80-20 research-clinical career, or some other split. I am wondering though what is really meant by "80% research." As in, what do the faculty-level physician scientists actually do on a day-to-day basis when they say they are "doing research."

I imagine doing research at the faculty level does not mean the same thing as a graduate student or post doc doing research. Are the faculty writing grants? Teaching? Meetings? Why are they so busy with these other things all day everyday that they can't really work at the bench or write a paper like a graduate student or post doc? Why don't faculty always avoid the "other responsibilities" like the plague so they can do research at the bench (except grant writing of course, for the money)?
 
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From what I've seen from my PI (PhD only) - he seems to be busy:
- writing grants and papers
- meetings with collaborators
- seminars
- faculty meetings
- serves as an editor & reviewer for a few journals
- meetings with all the grad students, postdocs, med fellows, etc. in the lab
- invited talks/meetings
- study sections
- teaching a class every other semester or so on computational bio
- reading tons of papers
- serves on various committees through the med school, hospital, research institutes

-- The only other difference I see with the MD/PhD faculty I know is that they tend to have 1 day (sometimes 2 days) a week that they see patients.

In order to get good at all the regular responsibilities one has as a faculty member (which take up a ton of time, especially if you happen to be competent and get more responsibilities and promotions), there has to be trust in you lab and thus you can't really expect to have time to do bench "research". Plus the more of the aforementioned stuff, the less time you have for research which means you get "rusty "and before you know it, you'd actually be getting in the way of your students/postdocs if you venture into the lab. These are my thoughts so far - maybe my view will change in a few yrs but to me it seems like the "80% research" just means a majority of your time is spent doing things that further the research output of your lab.
 
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From what I've seen from my PI (PhD only) - he seems to be busy:
- writing grants and papers
- meetings with collaborators
- seminars
- faculty meetings
- serves as an editor for a few journals
- meetings with all the grad students, postdocs, med fellows, etc. in the lab
- invited talks/meetings
- study sections
- teaching a class every other semester or so on computational bio
- reading tons of papers
- serves on various committees through the med school, hospital, research institutes

-- The only other difference I see with the MD/PhD faculty I know is that they tend to have 1 day (sometimes 2 days) a week that they see patients.

In order to get good at all the regular responsibilities one has as a faculty member (which take up a ton of time, especially if you happen to be competent and get more responsibilities and promotions), there has to be trust in you lab and thus you can't really expect to have time to do bench "research". Plus the more of the aforementioned stuff, the less time you have for research which means you get "rusty "and before you know it, you'd actually be getting in the way of your students/postdocs if you venture into the lab. These are my thoughts so far - maybe my view will change in a few yrs but to me it seems like the "80% research" just means a majority of your time is spent doing things that further the research output of your lab.

Yes, 80% means you spend as much time as possible doing non-clinical activities. The 80% is a relative value. The 20% or thereabouts is what is actually tracked. For instance, someone who has 20% clinical time will spend 20% of an FTE (full-time equivalent) doing clinical activities (ie seeing patients) and the rest of their time is research. So, let's stay that 1.0 FTE is 5 days of clinic a week plus 10 calls/month. 20% clinical time would be 0.2 FTE, so 1 day of clinic a week and 2 calls/month. So now you have more protected research time. While a lot of that research time happens 7 to 5 on weekdays, it also happens on weekends, late at night at home, or for me, post-call after being awake for 24 hours. So, the 80% research time doesn't mean anything as far as hours or day. The more time you spend on it the better. And yes it is filled with all the above mentioned as well as doing experiments. I think the most successful PIs still get their hands dirty so to speak, if just a little bit because 1) it keeps skills up 2) it's fun.
 
From what I've seen from my PI (PhD only) - he seems to be busy:
- writing grants and papers
- meetings with collaborators
- seminars
- faculty meetings
- serves as an editor for a few journals
- meetings with all the grad students, postdocs, med fellows, etc. in the lab
- invited talks/meetings
- study sections
- teaching a class every other semester or so on computational bio
- reading tons of papers
- serves on various committees through the med school, hospital, research institutes

-- The only other difference I see with the MD/PhD faculty I know is that they tend to have 1 day (sometimes 2 days) a week that they see patients.

In order to get good at all the regular responsibilities one has as a faculty member (which take up a ton of time, especially if you happen to be competent and get more responsibilities and promotions), there has to be trust in you lab and thus you can't really expect to have time to do bench "research". Plus the more of the aforementioned stuff, the less time you have for research which means you get "rusty "and before you know it, you'd actually be getting in the way of your students/postdocs if you venture into the lab. These are my thoughts so far - maybe my view will change in a few yrs but to me it seems like the "80% research" just means a majority of your time is spent doing things that further the research output of your lab.


It seems like seminars, journal editing, invited talks, study sections, teaching and committees can be avoided (or kept to a very bare minimum), perhaps?
 
It seems like seminars, journal editing, invited talks, study sections, teaching and committees can be avoided (or kept to a very bare minimum), perhaps?

They cannot be avoided since you need to grow your brand and become an established leader in your field. If you avoid all those activities, you'll have a harder time publishing which hurts your chances at tenure, which hurts your chances at recruiting talent to your lab and the cycle continues. Of course you don't want to go crazy, but as a junior faculty member, the competition is fierce and not being scientifically "social" can really be a detriment. I say this since my PI is an assistant prof whose relatively young (~35) but quickly becoming a rising star in my field and I'm just taking notes on what he's doing.
 
It seems like seminars, journal editing, invited talks, study sections, teaching and committees can be avoided (or kept to a very bare minimum), perhaps?

You should never avoid them, not unless you have no intention of getting promoted or getting tenure.
 
While a lot of that research time happens 7 to 5 on weekdays, it also happens on weekends, late at night at home, or for me, post-call after being awake for 24 hours.
Just an honest question: How do you keep up with that? It just seems really really hard to maintain a focus after something like 24 hours post call. Do you have some sort of regimen to help in any way.

Also is the 80% Research/20% clinical the most competitive appointment to get?
 
Just an honest question: How do you keep up with that? It just seems really really hard to maintain a focus after something like 24 hours post call. Do you have some sort of regimen to help in any way.

Also is the 80% Research/20% clinical the most competitive appointment to get?

It is hard to keep up. I'll be honest, typically I bank on a couple of hours of sleep on call. If I get that, I can usually do simple experiments, mostly things like collect samples, aliquot reagents, start simple experiments. If I get no sleep, I don't do experiments. In the past when I tried, I made too many mistakes. In the case of no rest, I usually do things like type, analyze data and make graphs, read papers or go to meetings. In those cases, if I nod off, nothing is really messed up. As for the real key to all of it... lots of coffee.

80% research is hard to get. For K grants it's a requirement, but you usually need 2 or more R01s to get 80% research as an associate professor.
 
Everything below your knees is doing clinical work while everything above your knees is doing research. 😛
 
The data from the MD/PhD survey shows a continuum from 0 - 100% research time. The amount varies, but to establish a bench research laboratory you really need to spend at least 75% of time doing research. You are competing against people doing 100% research. On the other hand, clinician-scientists doing other aspects of the translation from/to B2B could be doing a greater amount of clinical duties.
 
Many of us aspire to acquire an 80-20 research-clinical career, or some other split. I am wondering though what is really meant by "80% research." As in, what do the faculty-level physician scientists actually do on a day-to-day basis when they say they are "doing research."

Mostly writing grants.

I'd say from what I can gather people who consistently have 2 R01s basically spend at least 30-50% of their "80%" writing grants. If not directly sitting in from the laptop writing then thinking about new grant ideas and discussing with other people about grant ideas. Then the rest of the time is more about supervising people who would implement the previous grant (i.e. postdoc/students/staff).

Once there is money, you can hire people to do everything else for you, and cheaply. The reason that faculty don't do postdoc things is that postdocs do postdoc things much much more cheaply. It's a pyramid scheme and simple economics.

It's not entirely true that you need to be PIs on 2 R01s to sustain 80% research. There are other mechanisms from NIH that would allow you to do that (e.g. K22/K24, "MERIT", co-Is, etc.) Still, the salary from NIH funding is pennies compared to what you can generate from clinical work. It used to be that the indirects going to the department still makes it somewhat worth it. As inflation bumps up physician reimbursement even in non-procedural specialties, NIH salary line has not kept pace, especially when funding rates are so low, and therefore more recently many departments are becoming much less willing to take a hit to "support" research at a salary level that's comparable to doing clinical work. This creates distorted and perverse incentives, and makes it especially difficult for women and people from a disadvantaged background to sustain a research career. I think the senior members on this forum (Fencer, SurfingDoctor etc.) entered into the system at a propitious time. As far as I know, nobody in my generation (i.e. 5-10 years out of MD/PhD) who has been active on this forum (sure selection bias plays a part perhaps) is even close to getting an R01 (let alone 2), which used to be the norm. It's becoming increasingly clear that institutions cannot be relied upon, and it's a eat-what-you-kill world. As time goes on, things get easier, but not because the game itself becomes easier, but because you get to used to the idea of not having a solid job every grant cycle and come up with creative and sustainable ways (and that's different for each person) to deal with it.

Some of the blogs can be helpful (i.e. DrugMonkey, FemaleScienceProfessor, etc.) If you ask a professor in real life it's often difficult to get the "real story" so to speak because there's a strong tendency to try to convince people to continue. The reality is that the game is very rough and very frequently devastating to a lot of people, so it's always helpful to think about alternatives and diversify.
 
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