What does an MA offer you if you are on a PhD track?

[zoezaga21]

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First let me apologize if this is a silly question. I am currently an undergrad psych major (4 classes from graduation) with a 3.66 GPA and a 3.8 Major GPA. I transfered into psych after studying jazz composition. Consequently, I have taken a HUGE credit load in a compressed time frame and have not been able to get to know many of the professors at my school.

I'd like to get a PhD in Exp. Psych with a specialty in music cognition. I feel like my college path would lend itself well to this field- not to mention that I really enjoy submerging myself in reading all this research.

However, I don't have any real research experience aside from a coupel of method classes. A lot of those jobs at my school go to students who qualify for work study. However, if you are a major pain in the butt (overly assertive) things can happen for you. I was thinking for my senior year I could do a senior thesis, and hopefully link up with a professor to do some research for my last two semesters. Because my course load is going to be so light I would also like to consider being a TA.

Am I wrong in thinking that a Master's would simply be 2 years of research and another notch in the belt on the way to the PhD? Also, with some research apprenticing, and great grades, do Master's programs ever give you money to attend? That seems to be the quagmire for me. I'd almost rather take a year off and pay off some of my undergrad debt while working with a professor for an additional semester, than to drop 30K on something that might be the road I should travel.

Sorry for the haste.

 

[one eyed rex]

Hi, I've applied to masters programs with an experimental bent (I'm in social) this year. There definitely are funded programs, and I've been talking to others in this forum and on gradcafe who are currently in masters programs with full tuition waiver plus research assistanceship. I relied heavily on the APA guide to graduate studies in selecting the programs I applied to and of course individual web sites to get information about funding potential, etc.

I'm not qualified to say how helpful the MA is for a future experimental PhD student (though obviously, I hope it will help since I'm doing it). I've heard a lot of different opinions on the issue, and hope that your query brings good responses to that question. Clearly, research experience is extremely important for getting into competitive PhD programs, and the opportunity to develop that in a masters program seems like an advantage. That being said, my impression is that not all masters programs are equally likely to be a helpful stepping stone, so I believe it's worth shooting for programs that have a track record of sending students to good PhD programs. Being able to secure strong LORs from active researchers you have worked closely with in a well-respected program seems like a benefit of the masters program. Schools also differ on how soon you start doing research. There are 1-year masters in which you basically start on your thesis on day 1, for example, while others give you more time in the classroom first.

Other reasons I've heard for doing a masters first is needing to rehabilitate the undergrad GPA (not your problem) or develop a research interest (clearly not your problem - you have an interesting topic, btw). I also understand that people will do a masters if they are unable to score in a competitive range on the GRE (<1200 for PhD, I hear) but I am not sure how much a masters degree will ultimately help someone who is unable to improve upon a lowish GRE.

Sorry this is a kind of long post short on content. But anyway, good luck with your decision and I hope others chime in who may have more knowledge/experience.

 

[Aggieanthony]

Hi there, Zoezaga.

There is no simple, all-inclusive answer for this question.

Since you're considering an M.A. to bolster your research and not to compensate for a sub-satisfactory undergraduate GPA, Doctorate level adcoms will likely see it as a benefit, rather than a detractor. In fact, Norcross, Sayette and Main (2008) suggest that, "Indeed and understandably, admissions committees desire that their applicants have salient and applicable research regarding those activities that they intend to pursue for a lifetime."

On the other hand, when doctoral faculty were surveyed in detail regarding the value of a clinical (or research-oriented/pre-doctoral) Master's for gaining admission to their programs, the overall effect of the M.A. was negative... IIRC, the figures were 7% of the program respondents (Which included Duke, Columbia, Harvard, Stanford, UC Berkeley, UCLA, and several other heavy hitters with strong programs) felt an M.A. was a negative qualification, while it was neutral for 48% of admissions commitees, and positive for 45%. This is assuming the student has "good" GRE/cGPA, and I don't know your GRE score, but your GPA is "good". With a mediocre GPA and mediocre GRE score, the possession of an M.A. was way, way more neutral than positive.

One last criterion to consider is how research indicates that Ph.D. Clinical-focused programs have a very strong bias toward B.A. level applicants. Conversely, though, Psy.D Clinical, Ph.D Counseling and Ph.D. school psychology programs tend to view the possession of an M.A. much more favorably and they accept more M.A. applicants proportionally than do Ph.D. Clinical programs. The reasons for this are myriad, but a chief reason is that a majority of Ph.D. Clinical programs are "joint" or "concurrent" M.A./Ph.D programs, wherein the student earns an M.A. enroute to his or her Ph.D.

You are correct in that, with such a weak undergraduate research involvement bordering on mere acquaintance, you will have a hard time getting into Ph.D programs. You will be competing with people that have years of RA (Research Assistantship) and internship hours. Even presenting with a 1400+ GRE score and a 3.8 Major GPA (Your Cumulative is a bit[/b] low for a lot of Ph.D Clinical programs [UC Davis for example states that the average cGPA for incumbents was 3.81 in 2008]) you will face extreme prejudice due to the lack of research competence.

As far as your last question goes, regarding funding, the short answer is yes, a lot of M.A. programs are partially- and fully-funded! So, do some research, throw out some phone calls/e-mails and see how funding goes. A lot of M.A. programs (The one I completed for example) have similar procedures as Ph.D programs for determining admission/funding (Mentorship model).

Ultimately the decision is yours, and yours alone... All we can do here on SDN is provide an extra facet of data for your consideration, which is what I've tried to do here in this post. It is a tough decision, but a very important one. I suggest that you complete the M.A. if, for no other reason, you seriously need more research time. A lot more, more than one semester will afford you. In turn, I do understand the plague of student debt and the damage that can do psychologically (Especially toward the latter-half of one's Ph.D./Psy.D.) and emotionally, LOL. Would it be feasible to take a semester off, work a bit, pay off some of those loans (like you suggested doing) and working with one of your professors and then applying for a pre-doc M.A.?

As my undergraduate adviser told me once, failure to plan is planning to fail. So by taking time to make these decisions, you're doing yourself a big favor. Additionally, in the M.A., you will meet and work with several professors who can provide Letters of Rec (LoR) for you when it comes time to make the big leap to the Ph.D. program. A study done in 1995 by Norcross (I think) demonstrated that the #1 variable for doctoral programs in terms of admissions requirements is the letter of recommendation, followed by personal statement, GPA, research experience and GRE scores (In that order).

Food for thought I hope!

Anthony

 

[zoezaga21]

Thank you both very much for the replies. I could feasibly take time a bit of time off to work while I pay back some of my undergrad. I guess the question is would that be necessary if I had two semesters of research under my belt? I have to be honest. Most of the students I know at my university who are going off to get their MA's are doing so because their MAJOR GPA's were 3.0's-3.3's. If I have to be even more honest...most the students I know who had done research have merely entered numbers into SPSS. There are one or two who have actually conducted solid studies. The above is not meant to sound derogatory. It just seems like a really fine line. So I'll need research to get into an MA program to get more research? However, even 4 semesters of research as an undergrad might not have been enough to get into a PhD program? Which makes me wonder how you could feasibly have more than two years of research as an undergrad? Most people don't declare their major until midway through their second year. I guess if I needed more than two semesters of research to get into an MA program I might need to rethink my options about psych period. The thought of starting an MA at 25 and finishing at 27...then setting out on a 4-6 year journey for a phd truly seems a lot more distant than three years at law school. I'm sure the work in academia would be much more rewarding. It just seems way to expensive.

I'm not sure how much of a dent a year off will be in 35K (thank you music school), but nevertheless it is money I won't have to pay back later. Actually part of the quagmire I have been in while doing my undergrad is my job. Most of my peers seem to hate the job they do while they press through their undergrad. I've been lucky enough to teach kids how to play music and run a small business. It is really going to be hard to let some of the kids down.

I'm mainly looking at a PhD in experimental psychology. I do not have much of an interest in clinical psychology. I admire those of you who go on to do such noble work, but I am not sure I would be detached enough to handle some of the things I would see. Like I said music cognition is my main interest. There are only a handful of programs in America that handle that line of research. I don't know if that is a good thing or not? McGill is currently putting out some amazing work.

I have heard conflicting stories about how competitive experimental psych degrees are. The majority of what is hearsay is that they are slightly easier to get into than clinical programs? I still think my current lack of research would be a hinderance to even an MA program. Like I said, I think it is feasible for me to do a senior thesis and link up with a professor for an entire year. Perhaps I could push to start something this summer semester and have 3 semesters of research.


In conclusion I guess I have a couple more questions:
1. Are experimental psych PhD's easier to get into?
2. Are 4 semesters of research the standard for an undergrad heading into a phd program?

 

[Aggieanthony]

I didn't mean to make it sound like you'll need research to get into an M.A. at all! I don't think you'd need any really, just GRE/GPA requirements. That's how my program was, and I believe that's how the majority are. They're competitive, but by no means as competitive as a Ph.D. program.

I understand how you feel about age! After 4 years in the Army, I feel like I am so out of sync with the whole profession! A Master's degree at 27 and not starting a Psy.D until 4 months before my 29th birthday sure does make it sound like a horribly long, arduous path. But, as my wife tells me, "Even a Psy.D at 35 lets you have a very long, prosperous career."

Definitely some things to think about... It's not an easy path by any means. Law school certainly does seem "easier", but seldom is the easy way the best way.

I don't know how competitive experimental Ph.D. programs are compared to clinical/counseling, but I imagine they're not any less so. Since your focus is so specific, it might be very difficult for you to get into the right Ph.D. program and get funded (grants, etc) but as I've never seen anything about music cognition, I've got no idea. However, I pulled out my trusty Tome of Knowledge and found the following for McGill, which you noted is a possibility for you:

Percentage of faculty subscribing to each of the following orientations:
Psychodynamic/Psychoanalytic: 20%
Cognitive,Cognitive-behavioral: 80% (That'd be you, I suspect)
Number of applicants/admission offers/incoming students in 2008
180/5/4

GPA mean: Overall GPA 3.70
GRE mean: V 660, Q 660 (1320)
% of students rec'ving:
Full tuition waiver only : 0%
Assistantship/Fellowship only: 100%
Both: 0%

Approximate % of incoming students with a B.A./B.S only: 95% Those with M.A. or higher: 5%

Hope this helps.



Anthony

 

[zoezaga21]

Very cool.

I should have been clearer about music cognition. I think it would be utterly ridiculous for that to be your sole academic focus as a young academic. Most people doing work in the field diversify themselves with a broad training in overall cognitive psychology/neuroscience. There are a few schools that do have labs devoted to the study. The thing that drew me to it was not just the overall work in the field, but the backgrounds of the teachers. They seem to be really similar to mine. Studied music and composition really heavily, were musicians and than trained as scientists.
It seems like in an interview it would be much easier to justify how I spent 2 years studying jazz in boston before switching to psych...and might not be a hinderance but rather a bonus!
I didn't mean to imply law school would be easy. Law has been an interest of mine for a couple years. However, I think one needs to be very real about their prospects at actually being able to enjoy life while practicing it as it is now predominantly a field where you need to be in an Ivy.

 

[Aggieanthony]

However, I think one needs to be very real about their prospects at actually being able to enjoy life while practicing it as it is now predominantly a field where you need to be in an Ivy.

Do you mean law or psychology here?

 

[Grif]

I recently decided to go for a Master's before launching myself into a doctoral program. For me it was a pretty simple decision of:

• Student Loans (stafford) won't cover all of my PhD
• Work/Study is generally over-filled and funds are limited
• Some schools have extremely-tight Perkins Loan budgets
• If I'm considered a non-resident there, fuhgeddaboutit!

So basically I'll need a decent job to sustain me through my PhD studies. Now, I might have the option to go straight into my PhD if I become an RN beforehand, but that is another thread altogether.

My thinking is also that it may help my chances of getting into a good program.

 

[waytogreen]

I don't know how competitive experimental Ph.D. programs are compared to clinical/counseling, but I imagine they're not any less so. Since your focus is so specific, it might be very difficult for you to get into the right Ph.D. program and get funded (grants, etc) but as I've never seen anything about music cognition, I've got no idea. However, I pulled out my trusty Tome of Knowledge and found the following for McGill, which you noted is a possibility for you:

Percentage of faculty subscribing to each of the following orientations:
Psychodynamic/Psychoanalytic: 20%
Cognitive,Cognitive-behavioral: 80% (That'd be you, I suspect)
Number of applicants/admission offers/incoming students in 2008
180/5/4

GPA mean: Overall GPA 3.70
GRE mean: V 660, Q 660 (1320)
% of students rec'ving:
Full tuition waiver only : 0%
Assistantship/Fellowship only: 100%
Both: 0%

Approximate % of incoming students with a B.A./B.S only: 95% Those with M.A. or higher: 5%

This "Tome" you're referring to is the guide to Clinical and Counseling programs if I'm not mistaken, right? The problem is that the OP is interested in experimental programs so those stats don't mean anything for them. Overall, experimental programs are much much much easier to get into as they have a much smaller and much less competitive applicant pool. Consider the statistics for McGill University (Directly from the APA's Graduate Study in Psychology 2008 edition)

Experimental PhD - 2006-2007 School Year
Applications - 90
Total accepted - 20
GPA and GRE data not available

McGill is an incredible school with a reputation right up there with Ivy League schools here in the U.S. I would dare you to find a top-flight clinical program (Ph.D. or Psy.D.) that would offer anywhere near a 22% acceptance rate. Granted, you will find experimental programs that have really low acceptance rates but compared to clinical, and even counseling, it doesn't even come close.

 

[blindblonde]

I will try to address some of the concerns here, but feel free to PM me if you have questions about getting an M.A.

I'm a current grad student at Wake Forest, which is a general M.A. program. Yes, I do get funding to attend (decent funding, actually), although I am sure many programs are slashing funding due to budget cutbacks in the bad economy. You just have to look around--there are a few master's programs out there that do have funding (I believe William and Mary does, but don't quote me on that).

So why go the M.A. route? A few reasons:

1) Prove to yourself and places you apply for Ph.D. that you can handle grad level coursework. I took a ton of classes in undergrad, too, but grad classes go much more in depth and you read more articles than textbooks. It isn't just superfluous coursework from undergrad--I have learned a ton in just a year and a half.

2) Research experience. As a grad student, you have more responsibilities than in an undergrad lab. My research experience here has been invaluable, and I feel like a stronger applicant because of it. I did do research in undergrad, but I think I have done more sophisticated work and appreciate the work I am doing way more.

3) Double Check your interests. I have changed my research interests based on my experience in my program, although not everyone does. If you want me to go more in depth, PM me.

The bottom line is that although I didn't plan to take the M.A. route, it has worked well for me. Not everyone takes this route, but it has quite a few benefits when applying to Ph.D. programs.

In skimming the other responses, I think I saw where one person wanted to earn extra money while getting a master's. My program doesn't allow this--you cannot work another job without special permission. Grad school, Master's or Ph.D., is a full-time job, so I would not recommend trying to follow this plan.

If you have questions, let me know! 😎

 

[Grif]

In skimming the other responses, I think I saw where one person wanted to earn extra money while getting a master's. My program doesn't allow this--you cannot work another job without special permission. Grad school, Master's or Ph.D., is a full-time job, so I would not recommend trying to follow this plan.

If you have questions, let me know! 😎

Thank you for your advice (it was helpful to me also). Unfortunately, unless I can secure enough loans to cover the full COA I'd have to go part-time and work while attending. It's not optimal, for sure. I'm trying to catch funding where I can, so if all goes well I won't have to do that. 🙂