What does it take to get a residency @ Brown/Yale/Dartmouth/Harvard schools?

[gardilimo]

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Does anyone know what it takes for an American grad to get a spot at one of those schools in psychiatry?? And, has anyone visited, interviewed or attends one of these residencies (or knows somebody that does)...

Also, any other good New England programs (I read the Maine posts for fellowship earlier) for general residency that anyone knows about/has experience with??
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Doc Samson]

Does anyone know what it takes for an American grad to get a spot at one of those schools in psychiatry?? And, has anyone visited, interviewed or attends one of these residencies (or knows somebody that does)...

Also, any other good New England programs (I read the Maine posts for fellowship earlier) for general residency that anyone knows about/has experience with??
THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not all Ivy programs are created equal. Harvard as an entity includes 4 psychiatry residencies: Harvard Longwood (covering Brigham and Women's Hospital, Beth Israel Deaoness Medical Center, and Massachusetts Mental Health Center), MGH/McLean (covering - you guessed it - MGH and McLean), Cambridge (covering the Cambridge Health Alliance), and South Shore (covering the Brockton VA). Of those, options 1, 2, and 3 are significantly more competetive than option 4.

Brown and Yale are about as competetive as the 3 more selective Harvard programs. Dartmouth is probably a step below.

In terms of getting in, you'd want good board scores (though NOT a sine qua non for admission), honors on your clinical rotations, and glowing LORs. That much can buy you an interview. If it doesn't, calling and professing your undying wish to train at that program can open up a slot too. Once you're at the interview, they're looking for: 1) a strong, well thought out, well articulated motivation for pursuing psychiatry, 2) an above average understanding of mental illness and how it affects patients, 3) the ability to maintain boundaries (i.e. someone who doesn't commit the crime of "too much information"), and 4) the personality and work-ethic that would make someone want to work with/supervise you.

The number one thing you can do to help your cause is to do an away rotation at the residency you're interested in and work your @ss off for a month without ever, ever, ever complaining. 😉 That will make you more of a "known quantity" and reduce the sense of risk of ranking you high.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

In terms of getting in, you'd want good board scores (though NOT a sine qua non for admission), honors on your clinical rotations, and glowing LORs. That much can buy you an interview. If it doesn't, calling and professing your undying wish to train at that program can open up a slot too. Once you're at the interview, they're looking for: 1) a strong, well thought out, well articulated motivation for pursuing psychiatry, 2) an above average understanding of mental illness and how it affects patients, 3) the ability to maintain boundaries (i.e. someone who doesn't commit the crime of "too much information"), and 4) the personality and work-ethic that would make someone want to work with/supervise you.

The number one thing you can do to help your cause is to do an away rotation at the residency you're interested in and work your @ss off for a month without ever, ever, ever complaining. 😉 That will make you more of a "known quantity" and reduce the sense of risk of ranking you high.

These 2 paragraphs deserve to be in the FAQ under "How do I match into the residency of my choice?"

 

[whopper]

I mean no offense to anyone, especially the institutions, but don't buy into the idea that just because they got the name, that they are the best ones to get into.

E.g. Pasadena School of Design or Harvard if you want to be a professional artist working in film--you pick Pasadena School of design if you actually know what's really going on in the film industry.

There are several ways to measure a program. E.g. the average PRITE scores, the quality of the candidates they accept, the amount of research going on at the institutions, etc.

But any competitive residency program usually will want candidates with the better scores, the better reccomendations etc. That's easy to figure out. Just how high these programs want, I don't know.

One of my attendings was on the teaching staff at Dartmouth, and he said these institutions pretty much want top rated medical students with several exceptional merits on their CV, e.g. extracurricular publications & research.

 

[gardilimo]

oh, im not one of those 'ivy' only people. it just happened to be that those schools were located in the areas best for my spouse and family for various reasons. i am interested in other new england programs as i mentioned so if anyone knows anything, give a shout out!

i am new to psychiatry, i decided beginning of my 4th yr so i am not familiar with what they look for in a candidate for residency at the more competitive places!

thanks for the reply...

 

[cpep]

and South Shore (covering the Brockton VA). Of those, options 1, 2, and 3 are significantly more competetive than option 4.

I interviewed at Harvard South Shore and I have a very good friend who’s a PGY-IV at this program so I'm veyr familiar with this program's story. Their residents cover the VA Boston Health Network which has 3 campuses. Harvard South Shore residents cover both the Brocton and W.Roxbury campuses but not Jamaica Plain. They also spend significant time covering McLean, Sommerville, and Corrigan Mental Health. In addition, they spend some time at Beth Israel Decones, Cambridge, and Brigham Women’s. In the early 1980s, the program directors and several other Harvard physicians grew tired of hearing complaints that the Boston VA medical centers weren’t getting enough coverage so they decided to start a brand new residency training program, with Harvard supports and blessings, catered to south of Boston. I’m describing the clinical portions of this program in details since there seems to be a lot of confusion about this program. Everyone seems to think the HMS South Shore residents spend 100% their time at the VA Brockton only. Not true, more like ½ of the entire residency.

I believe this is a quality program where residents do get great training. There are plenty of research opportunities at McLean and at the VA but pale in comparison to the massive, more publicized research projects going on at MGH, BIDMC, and Brigham Women’s. As far as residency training is concerned, I believe the South Shore residents are well- prepared/trained since their training seems much more diverse at so many different harvard hospitals in the Boston and outer Boston surburbs as opposed to just 1 or 2 like at the other programs. Unfortunately, this program is considered weaker than the other 3 because or its association with the VA system and lacks the flashiness, bells, and whistles of the MGH, Brigham Women’s of the world. Being listed as the only Harvard program based in Brockton and not Boston hurts its perception too. Plus, the program director is a bit eccentric and doesn’t possess much charisma or charms in comparison to the other 3 PDs. BTW, out of the four programs only Harvard Longwood and South Shore are the two main Harvard medical school programs. MGH and Cambridge are the two wondrous affiliates which so many people are familiar with. In the end, I believe H. South Shore is a bona fide Harvard training program in which many people overlook because it lacks the high profile association with world famous hospitals such as MGH and Brigham’s Women. Amazingly, a lot of people I know outside of MA are not familiar with Beth Israel Decones which btw is the main Harvard medical center.

Personally, I really wanted to match at HMS South Shore. But I’m a USIMG so I didn’t want to take a risk with the match. Instead I took a sure thing and accepted a prematched offer at different program.

 

[Doc Samson]

I interviewed at Harvard South Shore and I have a very good friend who’s a PGY-IV at this program so I'm veyr familiar with this program's story. Their residents cover the VA Boston Health Network which has 3 campuses. Harvard South Shore residents cover both the Brocton and W.Roxbury campuses but not Jamaica Plain. They also spend significant time covering McLean, Sommerville, and Corrigan Mental Health. In addition, they spend some time at Beth Israel Decones, Cambridge, and Brigham Women’s. In the early 1980s, the program directors and several other Harvard physicians grew tired of hearing complaints that the Boston VA medical centers weren’t getting enough coverage so they decided to start a brand new residency training program, with Harvard supports and blessings, catered to south of Boston. I’m describing the clinical portions of this program in details since there seems to be a lot of confusion about this program. Everyone seems to think the HMS South Shore residents spend 100% their time at the VA Brockton only. Not true, more like ½ of the entire residency.

I believe this is a quality program where residents do get great training. There are plenty of research opportunities at McLean and at the VA but pale in comparison to the massive, more publicized research projects going on at MGH, BIDMC, and Brigham Women’s. As far as residency training is concerned, I believe the South Shore residents are well- prepared/trained since their training seems much more diverse at so many different harvard hospitals in the Boston and outer Boston surburbs as opposed to just 1 or 2 like at the other programs. Unfortunately, this program is considered weaker than the other 3 because or its association with the VA system and lacks the flashiness, bells, and whistles of the MGH, Brigham Women’s of the world. Being listed as the only Harvard program based in Brockton and not Boston hurts its perception too. Plus, the program director is a bit eccentric and doesn’t possess much charisma or charms in comparison to the other 3 PDs. BTW, out of the four programs only Harvard Longwood and South Shore are the two main Harvard medical school programs. MGH and Cambridge are the two wondrous affiliates which so many people are familiar with. In the end, I believe H. South Shore is a bona fide Harvard training program in which many people overlook because it lacks the high profile association with world famous hospitals such as MGH and Brigham’s Women. Amazingly, a lot of people I know outside of MA are not familiar with Beth Israel Decones which btw is the main Harvard medical center.

Personally, I really wanted to match at HMS South Shore. But I’m a USIMG so I didn’t want to take a risk with the match. Instead I took a sure thing and accepted a prematched offer at different program.

I'm not trying to show you up here, but an awful lot of this post is just wrong.
I don't want to get into the strengths/weaknesses of South Shore, but in terms of their spending time at BIDMC, BWH, etc. - they rotate for one month on the neurology service at BIDMC as PGY-1s, and never work at the Brigham (they might come to CL rounds once/week, but do not have any pt care there).

Harvard Longwood, MGH/McLean, Cambridge, and South Shore are all equally sponsored by Harvard Medical School (HMS), though I'm pretty sure that HMS medical students don't spend much time on the psychiatry services at the South Shore institutions. The 3 major Harvard teaching hospitals are BIDMC, BWH, and MGH. All have different personalities and differents pros/cons in terms of training, but no one of them is more "Harvard" than the others. Cambridge is a smaller, more community oriented hospital, but still Harvard affiliated, and a great training institution.

 

[libriumPOD]

I'm not trying to show you up here, but an awful lot of this post is just wrong.
BIDMC, BWH, etc. - they rotate for one month on the neurology service at BIDMC as PGY-1s, and never work at the Brigham (they might come to CL rounds once/week, but do not have any pt care there).

.

Doc Samson, your posts in regard to Harvard South Shore Psychiatry contain many inaccuracies. Many people, including you, make the mistake of reading the information on freida and eras and then make wild claims about our program. It is partially the program fault since it does not spend the money to woo applicants like at the other 3. We are one of the major Harvard psychiatry programs but we have to follow strict financial guidelines due to our association with the government VA system (no gifts above $20, very limited contact with pharmaceutical reps., no free lunch or dinner unless POD). We, however, are amongst the highest paid residents in the US. Our PGY1s currently make $53,000 annually. PGY-3s make $59,000. I am currently a PGY-3 and here is our detailed curriculum for the first 2 years.

PGY-1

3 months medicine at Metrowest
3 months Medical ER and subspecialty clinic at Brockton VA
2 months Neurology at BIDMC( 1 or 2 residents go to W.Roxbury)
2 months Inpatient Psychiatry Brockton VA
1 month Geriatric at Tauton
1 month Substance abuse

Short calls- Q3-Q4 4:15-10pm
Weekend Calls: Sat- 8am-8am, Sunday 8am-10pm twice a month.

PGY-2

6 months inpatients at SE McLean campus (short calls at Brockton VA).
1 month Forensics at McLean
3 months Child/Adolescent @ Cambridge
2 months CL at Brighams Womens (2 residents go to Sommerville)

Calls: Q5-Q6 including short and weekends ( 1 per month)

PGY 3, PGY-4: We split time between W.Roxbury, Brockton, and McLean. Last year, we had residents going to BIDMC but this may not happen again this year due to traveling hassles some of our residents experienced last year. Dr. Mushrush is extremely protective of her residents. We have a very rich and diverse training program which I am very proud to be a part of.

Calls PGY3- Q10-Q12 including backup POD.
No calls in PGY-IV ( ½ residents at Brockton, ½ at West Roxbury).

Of note: We do not go to ANY hospitals just for DIDACTICs only. We provide patient care at all facilities.

It’s outright lie if anyone tells you HMS student rarely do any rotations at any of the HMS South Shore facilities. We have students at all South Shore facilities. We help formulate their exams questions every few weeks.

 

[Doc Samson]

Doc Samson, your posts in regard to Harvard South Shore Psychiatry contain many inaccuracies. Many people, including you, make the mistake of reading the information on freida and eras and then make wild claims about our program. It is partially the program fault since it does not spend the money to woo applicants like at the other 3. We are one of the major Harvard psychiatry programs but we have to follow strict financial guidelines due to our association with the government VA system (no gifts above $20, very limited contact with pharmaceutical reps., no free lunch or dinner unless POD). We, however, are amongst the highest paid residents in the US. Our PGY1s currently make $53,000 annually. PGY-3s make $59,000. I am currently a PGY-3 and here is our detailed curriculum for the first 2 years.

PGY-1

3 months medicine at Metrowest
3 months Medical ER and subspecialty clinic at Brockton VA
2 months Neurology at BIDMC( 1 or 2 residents go to W.Roxbury)
2 months Inpatient Psychiatry Brockton VA
1 month Geriatric at Tauton
1 month Substance abuse

Short calls- Q3-Q4 4:15-10pm
Weekend Calls: Sat- 8am-8am, Sunday 8am-10pm twice a month.

PGY-2

6 months inpatients at SE McLean campus (short calls at Brockton VA).
1 month Forensics at McLean
3 months Child/Adolescent @ Cambridge
2 months CL at Brighams Womens (2 residents go to Sommerville)

Calls: Q5-Q6 including short and weekends ( 1 per month)

PGY 3, PGY-4: We split time between W.Roxbury, Brockton, and McLean. Last year, we had residents going to BIDMC but this may not happen again this year due to traveling hassles some of our residents experienced last year. Dr. Mushrush is extremely protective of her residents. We have a very rich and diverse training program which I am very proud to be a part of.

Calls PGY3- Q10-Q12 including backup POD.
No calls in PGY-IV ( ½ residents at Brockton, ½ at West Roxbury).

Of note: We do not go to ANY hospitals just for DIDACTICs only. We provide patient care at all facilities.

It’s outright lie if anyone tells you HMS student rarely do any rotations at any of the HMS South Shore facilities. We have students at all South Shore facilities. We help formulate their exams questions every few weeks.

Hey folks, sorry for delay... the first week of fellowship has been kicking my @ss, and sorry for the dead-horse flogging on an issue that most of you probably don't care about, but...

This is not based on "reading the information on freida and eras and then make wild claims about our program", this is based on working for the past 4 years at hospitals that you claim to work at, and yet I've never seen a South Shore resident there. I thought, "Hmm, maybe they're around and I've missed them", so I checked with some friends, including former Chief Residents and CL fellows at Brigham and Women's, and to their knowledge, there are not now, nor have ever been previously, South Shore residents on the CL service. Where were your residents at BIDMC? I checked with former Chief Residents on the inpatient, outpatient, and CL services, and again, no joy. Are you guys invisible? Outfitted with stealth technology?
Admittedly, I mispoke when I said that HMS students don't rotate through "South Shore facilities". What I meant was, to the best of my knowledge, the Brockton VA (your primary site) is not a core clerkship site for HMS because the lengthy commute would be prohibitive.
You can be proud of your residency, but it seems odd to me that you claim to spend a lot of time on services that I have a lot of contact with, and have never seen a South Shore resident working on them.

 

[gardilimo]

😴
Hey how about this--- does anyone know what kind of board scores (step1 and 2 if you have them) it takes to even get an interview at one of these places (and yes, even @ south shore). Or do they not use just boards as screening criteria?

Hey folks, sorry for delay... the first week of fellowship has been kicking my @ss, and sorry for the dead-horse flogging on an issue that most of you probably don't care about, but...

This is not based on "reading the information on freida and eras and then make wild claims about our program", this is based on working for the past 4 years at hospitals that you claim to work at, and yet I've never seen a South Shore resident there. I thought, "Hmm, maybe they're around and I've missed them", so I checked with some friends, including former Chief Residents and CL fellows at Brigham and Women's, and to their knowledge, there are not now, nor have ever been previously, South Shore residents on the CL service. Where were your residents at BIDMC? I checked with former Chief Residents on the inpatient, outpatient, and CL services, and again, no joy. Are you guys invisible? Outfitted with stealth technology?
Admittedly, I mispoke when I said that HMS students don't rotate through "South Shore facilities". What I meant was, to the best of my knowledge, the Brockton VA (your primary site) is not a core clerkship site for HMS because the lengthy commute would be prohibitive.
You can be proud of your residency, but it seems odd to me that you claim to spend a lot of time on services that I have a lot of contact with, and have never seen a South Shore resident working on them.