What does the LCSW "add" to the MSSW?

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BlackSkirtTetra

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Hello, all.

I am a new Masters of Science in Social Work (MSSW) Student starting next month. I have read through this forum a bit now and I have some technical questions (all related to each other) about the MSSW and the LCSW.

After getting my MSSW (I am in a 3-year program), my goals are to work as a direct-practice professional therapist, dealing with mental health issues like PTSD and Rape Trauma Syndrome. The setting (hospital, clinic, group home, agency) doesn't matter as much to me. My concentration for my MSSW is Mental Health, although I also plan to take electives in law because that interests me, too.

I know that the LCSW is an option for me after I graduate, but I'm not clear on what the LCSW "adds" to the MSSW or if/why I should pursue it.

1) If you have your MSSW and decide to work without the LCSW, can you still practice as a mental health counselor?

2) If you have your LCSW in addition to your MSSW, how is that different from having just the MSSW?

3) If you can do the same jobs without an LCSW (or if there is some overlap), is there any earnings difference (in general)?

4) For people who are bilingual, do employers expect you to be able to offer services in your second language? Since my education has been entirely in one language, I'd imagine this would be more difficult than many people realize.

5) For those of you who work with or without your MSSW and/or LCSW, could you briefly tell me what kind of work you do, your earnings (only if you feel comfortable) and anything else you think is relevant?

Thank you very much for reading! 🙂
 
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Hello, all.

I am a new Masters of Science in Social Work (MSSW) Student starting next month. I have read through this forum a bit now and I have some technical questions (all related to each other) about the MSSW and the LCSW.

After getting my MSSW (I am in a 3-year program), my goals are to work as a direct-practice professional therapist, dealing with mental health issues like PTSD and Rape Trauma Syndrome. The setting (hospital, clinic, group home, agency) doesn't matter as much to me. My concentration for my MSSW is Mental Health, although I also plan to take electives in law because that interests me, too.

I know that the LCSW is an option for me after I graduate, but I'm not clear on what the LCSW "adds" to the MSSW or if/why I should pursue it.

1) If you have your MSSW and decide to work without the LCSW, can you still practice as a mental health counselor?

2) If you have your LCSW in addition to your MSSW, how is that different from having just the MSSW?

3) If you can do the same jobs without an LCSW (or if there is some overlap), is there any earnings difference (in general)?

4) For people who are bilingual, do employers expect you to be able to offer services in your second language? Since my education has been entirely in one language, I'd imagine this would be more difficult than many people realize.

5) For those of you who work with or without your MSSW and/or LCSW, could you briefly tell me what kind of work you do, your earnings (only if you feel comfortable) and anything else you think is relevant?

Thank you very much for reading! 🙂


LCSW is a state license only. MSSW is a degree.
 
I'm not a social worker and each state has their own laws. That being said, I don't know of any state where you can practice mental health counseling and call yourself a social worker without a state license.

I don't know if you would be paid more. It's more a question of your role as an employee. Do you get paid more to do counseling rather than case work? I have no idea.

You said your goals were to work in mental health with PTSD and trauma. I don't think that's going to be possible at the 1:1 therapy level without a state license.
 
Yes. I guess I assumed that was obvious...maybe not.
 
In my state, at least up until recently I don't believe you could bill MA without the LCSW license. Perhaps in some states you can bill MA and insurance companies with the CAPSW (advanced practice) license. Majority of the hospital, clinic and governent agency jobs I've seen in my state require you to have the LCSW license for therapist positions. Like I said I'm sure a lot of it depends at what level of licensure your state will allow you to bill insurance and MA.
 
Thank you.

So without the LCSW, what kind of work do MSSWs do?

It will be two years after I earn my MSSW before I get my LCSW.
 
See post 7.

Most of your questions have been asked and answered multiple times. Using our search function may be helpful.

Thank you. This is very helpful!

In this case though, the search function is almost useless, since when you search for "lcsw" or "msw" you get so many hundreds of results that it's impractical to wade through them all.
 
I just had half of my hours towards my licensure signed off today. I received my MSW in 2010, so I'm really happy! Anyway, as an MSW (or MSSW), you have to work under the supervision of a licensed person, whether it's an LCSW, LMFT, or clinical psychologist. With the LCSW, you can practice on your own, supervise MSW's and MFT interns (typically after two years of licensure), and typically get paid more. I know that the LCSW who supervises me makes about $80k a year plus bonus. An LCSW friend who leads a social services department at a hospital makes about $100k a year. MSW's who work in corrections settings for example usually start in the mid 60's. Please note that social workers are notorious for being paid very little compared to our mental health professionals. I think there was a study a couple of years back that showed many social workers making less than forty thousand dollars a year even with a master's degree. You might want to ask your professors about this report.

You can still practice as a mental health counselor and provide counseling services (like the ones you described) as an MSW. I know many MSW's who function as MSW's without going for their license. This is definitely their choice, especially for the ones who work in advocacy and policy and who do not need or want to be licensed. I personally think that we need more MSW's who want to work in advocacy and social change (this is what we were trained for!) instead of only focusing on being therapists and emulating LMFT's and clinical psychologists.
 
Thank you. That is really helpful information. I am surprised anybody with LCSW is making $80-100k per year. How long have those folks been working, if you don't mind my asking? Everything I read says to expect to make less than half that.

I am actually not being primarily trained in advocacy and social change, though. My concentration is in Mental Health, and I have classes lined up dealing with psychopharmacology, addictive behavior, anxiety and depression, and so forth since I'm being trained primarily for therapy. I have no interest in wide-scale social change or advocacy. I'd rather work with individuals on a smaller scale.

When I first applied for MSW programs, I asked the folks in each school's department about possibly pursuing an MS in Counseling or a similar kind of degree instead of the MSW, and they invariably encouraged me to look into that option but said that the MSSW degree is a perfectly legitimate way to enter the counseling profession.

It surprised me to hear professionals say this, because before that I'd heard from people in the field the same exact thing you've said, that there needs to be "more MSW's who want to work in advocacy and social change (this is what we were trained for!) instead of only focusing on being therapists and emulating LMFT's and clinical psychologists."

From what I've seen, I think the tides may be slowly turning so that MSWs work primarily as therapists more often, and the folks involved in advocacy and social change have Masters of Social Change or similar non-SW degrees.
 
I am actually not being primarily trained in advocacy and social change, though. My concentration is in Mental Health, and I have classes lined up dealing with psychopharmacology, addictive behavior, anxiety and depression, and so forth since I'm being trained primarily for therapy.

You haven't stared your program yet, have you? I'm almost done with mine, and you should know that ALL social workers receive extensive training in advocacy and social change. It's a basic tenant of the profession. I'm as clinical as they get and you still get that training. The CSWE standardizes first year education and you'll get a healthy (i.e. heavy) dose of traditional social work within that year.
 
That's correct. My plan allows for summer classes and all together there are two courses which deal with social policy (social welfare and institutions and public policy), out of around 18 total, including the electives I'll be taking.

I feel like the department itself is telling me one thing, and people "on the ground" are telling me two other things. It can be so confusing! 🙄

I'm glad this board exists.

P.S. Do you know if there's a place on the CSWE's website where I can find that first-year regulation? I've been searching but it's difficult for me to find...
 
I have friends with concentrations in mental health, and they love it. Please note that if your plan is to work for a public or private mental health agency, the starting pay for an MSW can be quite low, depending on the agency. So, do your research. I really think that once you are out in the field, it's very easy to lose the social work mentality, and I've seen this happen over and over again, where social workers engage in doing counseling and therapy all day long in their office. Some don't even bother to do home visits anymore. It's so sad. Anyway, regarding the salary, it really depends. I know that if you want to work in rural areas, you can get paid pretty well because it's hard to get people to work in remote locations. Generally, the ones who make 80k and over a year have been in the field for ten years or more. My field supervisor one time told me never to accept any position that pays less than 45k a year. He said, and I quote, "Those are stupid social workers who accept such a low pay." Our work is hard and complicated, and we also have bills, so getting a low pay can really add to your stress as a social worker.
 
Thank you. I appreciate that response. This forum is so helpful to me!

One of my professors in undergrad told me the same thing, except she used $40,000 as a minimum cutoff. Based on where I am currently in my finances, I don't think my family could live on less than $38,000 a year. So it's honestly scary to me to think that I could graduate with my Master's and not make that. 😱

I have friends with concentrations in mental health, and they love it. Please note that if your plan is to work for a public or private mental health agency, the starting pay for an MSW can be quite low, depending on the agency.
Why is this? Is it because they're not licensed (LCSW) when starting out?

The mental health concentration is the only real concentration I would consider. I understand that public policy, advocacy, and social change are all very important, but I have little or no interest in them except academically. I want to do therapy full-time.

where social workers engage in doing counseling and therapy all day long in their office.
I have seen this happen, too. I don't think it's a bad thing, though. There isn't anything wrong with becoming a counselor/therapist via an MSW and doing nothing but counseling.

From what I've been told at least, there is room for both counselors/therapists and advocates/policy-makers. *shrug*
 
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I respect your goal. In social work, the concept of "goodness of fit" is really important; whatever niche works for you and utilizes your strengths is what you want to capitalize on. It sounds to me that you are really committed to doing counseling and therapy and in helping people at this level of intervention. Just make sure to get field training and experience with really good clinicians; supervision is really important, including group supervision. I hope that your program has a clinic where you could practice your skills and your sessions will be videotaped for reviews and discussion. How many courses are offered in your program that focus on individual, family, conjoint, and group therapy? Are these courses taught by clinicians or theorists who don't do clinical work? These are good things to know in advance.

My criticism of most MSW programs is that we don't get enough training in counseling and therapy in comparison to counseling and clinical psychology programs. Where some MSW programs offer two or three classes in counseling, counseling and clinical psychology departments focus almost the entirety of their programs on counseling and therapy. You can just imagine the disparity in terms of knowledge acquisition alone! How many MSW programs even offer courses in neuroscience or neuropsychology? I have seen MSW graduates who took a couple of classes in solution-focused and cognitive therapy and consider themselves at a par with MFT and psychology interns. It's not the same. Sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

So read, read, and read some more and consult with other clinicians. Take courses after you graduate and hook up with private institutes that offer in-depth training in psychotherapy. Subscribe to journals that will keep you up-to-date in your specialty.

As for pay with public and private agencies, there can be huge disparities. Private agencies that contract with public agencies tend to pay their staff, including social workers, lower salaries because this is how they get contracts, by being the lowest bidder. If you work with the public agency itself instead of their contractors, you generally get a higher salary because you are typically part of a union. Things to consider as you progress through your program. All the very best to you in your career, and I agree with you in that as social workers we can make a difference at whatever level of intervention we choose to work in.
 
Thank you for that response. I don't know the exact answer to most of your questions but I will definitely find out later this week and I'm glad you asked them because it helps me reformulate and refocus what I want to do.

Something pesky is floating around in my head, though. I've read in multiple places (not just on this forum) that MSWs and LCSWs in rural areas tend to be paid more than those in urban areas, but I've also read that rural practitioners generally charge less per office visit than do urban counterparts. How does that even out? Or is one statement not really true? On the face of it, they seem like conflicting claims.
 
I work in a rural and remote area that is economically depressed. I know that the few LCSWs, LMFTs, and one clinical psychologist in private practice here offer sliding scale for their clients because the median household income for a family of four is about $20,000! So, my assumption is, they don't make as much as their counterparts who practice in more urban and affluent areas. However, those who work for agencies (public and private) do tend to get higher salaries because it's hard to get mental health practitioners to come to this area. So, I guess there is some truth to both statements, but it may vary by location, funding availability, etc. One thing about working in a rural area that has been designated as a mental health shortage area by the National Health Services Corps is that you may qualify for loan repayment. A PsyD friend of mine managed to get all of her student loan from an APA-accredited professional school forgiven. Social workers also qualify for federal loan repayments if the area that they practice in is designated as an MHSA; however, they must be an LCSW if I'm not mistaken. So, another incentive to be an LCSW. Also, some states may have loan repayment programs for workers (MSW's and LCSW's); check with your state chapter of the NASW.
 
I have looked around and asked some folks via email and phone, and here is what I've found out:

I actually have a whole year of social policy classes. I am glad for this, because my undergrad degree is in a different field (I haven't really studied social policy except superficially), so I think I have a lot to learn in social policy area. One of my placements (I will have 2) will likely be in a social service type setting, although I may end up focusing on mental health there. I have more choice in where my second placement will be, less in where my first will be. They assured me that this was normal.

Some courses seem to be taught by clinicians who later got their PhDs and started teaching, and others are taught by people who never practiced at all. So that part's a mixed-bag. How much do you think this matters? In my undergraduate field, there were really no clinicians so everybody was an academic.

I will be able to take all the classes in my mental health specialization, but if I want to, I can apply to take graduate classes in another field, like psychology. This would be additional coursework but at no extra cost, as long as I can get it approved. My upcoming semester (my first) I am not going to ask for this, as I think I will have enough to get done, being new and all. But I might ask for it in a later semester.

What type of non-social work classes would you recommend for that?

So read, read, and read some more and consult with other clinicians. Take courses after you graduate and hook up with private institutes that offer in-depth training in psychotherapy. Subscribe to journals that will keep you up-to-date in your specialty.
I am embarrassed to say that I don't even know where to begin in subscribing to the journals I'd need. I'm going to the reference library later tonight and I'm asking them.

Where do I start looking into private institutes?

Sorry I have so many questions! 😱
 
I am embarrassed to say that I don't even know where to begin in subscribing to the journals I'd need. I'm going to the reference library later tonight and I'm asking them.

Your university should have subscriptions to a bunch of online databases (PsychINFO, ProQuest, etc.) , which you can search through and read applicable journals. Sometimes when you join a professional association/organization you get sent their journal, though not all "student" memberships will include this option.

Where do I start looking into private institutes?

This is something to do after your training is complete and you are out and licensed.
 
Thank you very much. I had never heard of any of the institutes, which is why I asked.
 
Sounds like you are enrolled in a wonderful program. I really enjoyed the social policy courses in my program, although the advocacy project was a ton of work! I'm sure you will enjoy your program very much.

I agree with supplementing with courses from other departments if your interest is in creating a balanced education for yourself. I did this when I was in grad school too. Of course, you have to have permission from the head of the departments that you're interested in before enrolling in their courses because some of them may require prereqs. I even attended quarterly lectures that the counseling students organized where they invited lecturers from all over the country to provide workshops on various therapy topics.

As for classes taught by theorists, you have to understand that they may not be aware of what is going on in the field and they always appreciate feedback. For example, I received various assessment tools for use in the field, but my professor hadn't actually used most of them. He only knew that they had been tested and validated in various settings. So, I was able to provide my feedback regarding the usage of the tools, the problems I encountered, etc.

I agree with reading as many different journals while you still have access to them online as a student and figure out which ones you like and are relevant to you. I am currently taking an introductory course in psychoanalysis at a psychoanalytic institute. This was a part of my education that was glaringly missing; social work has a strong tradition in pscyhoanalysis. However, the professors at my program discouraged us STRONGLY from going the psychoanalytic route because they believed that this is a non-evidence based modality. What I found out is that some of the more contemporary approaches like intersubjectivity and relational psychoanalysis actually jibe with my sensibilities as a social worker and they are approaches that I could probably integrate into my tool box in the future.

I wish you all the best. It sounds to me that you are really committed in making a difference and creating a social work education that meets your goals and strengths.
 
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