What happens during all those years of training?

[Genecks]

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Call me biased, but doesn't the amount of training to be a neurosurgeon seem like a lot?

This had made me really consider if there is some better way to become one without wasting a decade of my life. Perhaps something overseas and then recertification in America?

The reason I have chosen neuroscience over neurosurgeon is because of the time required. I'm interested in both, but I'm not going to waste a decade of my life.

How Are Neurosurgeons Trained?
After four years of medical school and an internship program, the doctor enters a neurosurgical residency program of five to seven years.

What exactly is done in medical school?
What is done for each year?
Even during residency.

If someone could be descriptive and concise as possible, I would greatly appreciate it.

Would I be subject to learning a lot of crap that does not relate to neurosurgery? And why? Why would I be doing this?

In college, I began to skip lectures after I noticed the professors simply reiterated everything in the book. I came during exams, and I aced them. I'm going to really hope medical school is hands on. Because I sure know that just about 80% of things spoken in a lecture can be read and learned much faster.

Furthermore, what of the residency program? Why would I be using five to seven years of my life? That's wayyy too long. Three years of residency seem long enough. Anything else, and things start to seem like a full U.S. military serve. I didn't join the military, because I saw five years of serving as a waste of time and lifeforce. I wanted to be an 18A Special Forces officer. I don't really care for the idea of friends, family, or living. I take a daoist/transhumanist view to things. That's why I think a person has to know when something is a waste of time. Unfortunately, I see a lot of contemporary neuroscience researchers being M.D./Ph.D, which is why I'm here asking.

So, would someone be ever so kind to explain to an aspiring neuroscientist what exactly is entailed with becoming a neurosurgeon?

You see, I'm thinking about doing a M.D./Ph.D kind of thing. But there is almost little way you could persuade me to believe that 12 years of time is needed to figure out how to open a skull and configure a sentient being. But hey, go for it. That's why I decided to ask.

 

[DOme2009]

the first 2 years of medical school provides the basis for the physiology and pathophysiology that occurs in healthy individuals to cause disease - the introduction to clinical settings like hospitals and outpatient clinics occurs during years 3 and 4. residency establishes the fundamentals of patient care management and operative experience to create successful independent physicians, and this is particularly important for surgical subspecialties.

i don't know about you, but if someone is going to cut on my goddamn brain, i'd like to know that they successfully completed a residency program that increases the chances that they will know what the hell they're doing before, during, and after the surgery. that's why neurosurgery is such a long residency - if you f up, your pt is going to end up a vegetable (and sometimes they end up that way regardless).

 

[beaverfetus]

in the vague event that op isn't a troll

http://www.cumc.columbia.edu/dept/nsg/residents/program/program_descript.html
http://www.stjosephs-phx.org/Academic_Affairs/Residents_And_Fellows/191643

 

[Genecks]

#1: I don't like being called a troll, but thank you for the links.

#2:

i don't know about you, but if someone is going to cut on my goddamn brain, i'd like to know that they successfully completed a residency program that increases the chances that they will know what the hell they're doing before, during, and after the surgery. that's why neurosurgery is such a long residency - if you f up, your pt is going to end up a vegetable (and sometimes they end up that way regardless).

I understand that, but isn't there a statistical amount of various neurological problems a NS would run into? I don't understand people saying there are like 100 hours/week of work as a NS. Do people run head first into buildings everyday?

I'm guessing a resident is doing more than just NS work, right? Doing work that is not related to the spine or brain?

I mean, were I doing like 100 hours of work per week of neurosurgeon stuff, that'd seem pretty cool after a while. It'd be interesting, and I'd get use to it.

But where I'm thinking there would be a waste of time is if I wasn't doing something that was related to my specialty over 60-70% of the time.

And having 40% of things not relevant to NS over a duration of 4 or more years would get pretty annoying and seem like a waste of talent.

 

[Kiroro]

yes. you are exactly right. I'm happy that you found another speciality that is a better much for you.

Good luck👍

#1: I don't like being called a troll, but thank you for the links.

#2:



I understand that, but isn't there a statistical amount of various neurological problems a NS would run into? I don't understand people saying there are like 100 hours/week of work as a NS. Do people run head first into buildings everyday?

I'm guessing a resident is doing more than just NS work, right? Doing work that is not related to the spine or brain?

I mean, were I doing like 100 hours of work per week of neurosurgeon stuff, that'd seem pretty cool after a while. It'd be interesting, and I'd get use to it.

But where I'm thinking there would be a waste of time is if I wasn't doing something that was related to my specialty over 60-70% of the time.

And having 40% of things not relevant to NS over a duration of 4 or more years would get pretty annoying and seem like a waste of talent.

 

[latinfridley]

#1: I don't like being called a troll, but thank you for the links.

#2:



I understand that, but isn't there a statistical amount of various neurological problems a NS would run into? I don't understand people saying there are like 100 hours/week of work as a NS. Do people run head first into buildings everyday?

I'm guessing a resident is doing more than just NS work, right? Doing work that is not related to the spine or brain?

I mean, were I doing like 100 hours of work per week of neurosurgeon stuff, that'd seem pretty cool after a while. It'd be interesting, and I'd get use to it.

But where I'm thinking there would be a waste of time is if I wasn't doing something that was related to my specialty over 60-70% of the time.

And having 40% of things not relevant to NS over a duration of 4 or more years would get pretty annoying and seem like a waste of talent.

I think you shouldn't worry about NS. Are you in high school or college? If so figure out whether you want to be a physician first, not so much what specialty you want to go into.

 

[Genecks]

I have my Associate's Degree. But I suppose my rhetoric could have been fine tuned in the original post.

My next step is the Bachelor's Degree, which I have planned to be in molecular biology.

The only reason I am worried about obtaining a M.D. in neurosurgery is because I see many medical researchers who have an M.D. and a Ph.D. When I look at such people, I noticed they are in their 30s and 40s. Such a task is impressive, but for the average male lifespan (about 70), it seems that a typical male with M.D./Ph.D would have about 30 to 40 years of true neuroscience research left, if pursuing neuroscience research. However, after viewing the many lifespans of famous scientists, I have come to believe a biologist can live well into his 80s.

This need of spending so many years of training to specialize in a field worries me. For instance, I can't remember the website, so I apologize, but there was a research group working on memory and cognitive abilities. The group was only willing to hire people who were M.D/Ph.D. If it were only Ph.D or M.D., then I could understand. I'm sure the combination of a medical doctor and a doctor of neuroscience (two people) in a lab would make for a great team.

When I saw this, I thought, "Why so many years of training? Are that many years of training necessary in order to better understand the field of neuroscience in order to achieve new leaps and bounds? Or does having a M.D. allow a person to break ethical bounds that a regular neuroscientist can't?"

The reason I chose neuroscientist was because I would graduate with a Ph.D well before 30, and I would have many, many years of research ahead of me.

I'm trying to get my stuff straight before I slip up.

The first link beaverfetus gives me the impression that NS residents are limited to certain kinds of patients each year. I'm trying to understand if there is some kind of variation in training each year and by how much. It seems like there are exams to pass each year.

 

[latinfridley]

I have my Associate's Degree. But I suppose my rhetoric could have been fine tuned in the original post.

My next step is the Bachelor's Degree, which I have planned to be in molecular biology.

The only reason I am worried about obtaining a M.D. in neurosurgery is because I see many medical researchers who have an M.D. and a Ph.D. When I look at such people, I noticed they are in their 30s and 40s. Such a task is impressive, but for the average male lifespan (about 70), it seems that a typical male with M.D./Ph.D would have about 30 to 40 years of true neuroscience research left, if pursuing neuroscience research. However, after viewing the many lifespans of famous scientists, I have come to believe a biologist can live well into his 80s.

This need of spending so many years of training to specialize in a field worries me. For instance, I can't remember the website, so I apologize, but there was a research group working on memory and cognitive abilities. The group was only willing to hire people who were M.D/Ph.D. If it were only Ph.D or M.D., then I could understand. I'm sure the combination of a medical doctor and a doctor of neuroscience (two people) in a lab would make for a great team.

When I saw this, I thought, "Why so many years of training? Are that many years of training necessary in order to better understand the field of neuroscience in order to achieve new leaps and bounds? Or does having a M.D. allow a person to break ethical bounds that a regular neuroscientist can't?"

The reason I chose neuroscientist was because I would graduate with a Ph.D well before 30, and I would have many, many years of research ahead of me.

I'm trying to get my stuff straight before I slip up.

The first link beaverfetus gives me the impression that NS residents are limited to certain kinds of patients each year. I'm trying to understand if there is some kind of variation in training each year and by how much. It seems like there are exams to pass each year.

Understand you can't get a MD in neurosurgery. Training in neurosurgery occurs after medical school.
If you are serious about clinical research than an MD and PhD is advantageous because as a physician you have a broad knowledge base about medical problems and you can deal with them directly.
If you are interested in memory, cognition, etc.. I would suggest a PhD and not an MD, unless you want to practice medicine and help patients. The areas of memory, cognition and other esoteric neuroscience subjects, are not really the purview of neurosurgeons. In medicine these domains are primarily under neurology. I think you may be getting the fields of neurology and neurosurgery confused and would benefit from exploring what clinicians actually do in these very different areas.
If you want only to do research and you want to do clinical trials, etc.. related to memory etc.. I would suggest looking at neurology. If you do not want to do clinical trials, getting a PhD only is the way to go.
Might I also suggest looking into the field of neuropsychology...

 

[maratgr]

hey genecks

I have been around *****s but you top the list

first, being in a military is not a waste of time. These people serve with honor and you should respect that.
next, you are not even a doctor. so shut your mouth and become an MD/DO first and then will talk
NS residency is anywhere between 6-7 years and that time is important to develop proficiency in that field and if you don't like it go pump gas

 

[Genecks]

Thank you, latinfridley, for that information. I haven't been able to pindown accurate information. I'd have to walk into a medical hospital for that and pindown a medical doctor. I've tried talking to them, but they never have enough time to discuss things with me. And the professors around me are clueless. It seems like parts of the Internet have improved in the past few years, though.

I think neurologist is more of what I'm oriented toward. Regardless, I would still enjoy having the skills of a neurosurgeon. I'm not too sure how to do that and be a neurologist without more certifcation and training.

Alright, I guess I obtained my answer and was pointed elsewhere.
Thank all of you for your help.

On another note, before I leave, I saw some people ridiculing someone who asked about going from high school to medical school. I think it was "Subjects to study while in high school."

I found some information, though:

A few medical schools offer pre-admittance to students directly from high-school by linking a joint 3-year accelerated undergraduate degree and a standard 4-year medical degree with certain undergraduate universities, sometimes referred to as a "7-year program", where the student receives a bachelor's degree after their first year in medical school. While obtaining an undergraduate degree is not an explicit requirement for a few medical schools, virtually all admitted students have earned at least a bachelor's degree.

Although not cited, it came from Wikipedia.

 

[NSGYRes]

I am a neurosurgeon. I finished residency June 2007.

Here is a brief timeline of training and what you do each year.

1) 4 years college/undergraduate: Bachelor's Degree. Any major is fine. Apply to med school. Gain acceptance to medical school.

2) 4 years medical school:
Years 1 and 2: Lectures, small group learning, basic foundation in areas of anatomay, histology, embryology, neuroscience, biochemistry, immunology, microbiology, biostatistics, pharmacology, pathological basis of disease, physiology, clinical diagnosis, medical history taking and physical examination

Years 3 and 4: clinical rotations in the hospital including rotations in surgery, surgical specialties (neurosurgery is an option), internal medicine, family medicine, obstetrics and gynecology, pediatrics, psychiatry, neurology with options for radiology, emergency medicine, dermatology, cardiology etc

3) Residency in Neurosurgery (6-7 years long)
internship (first yr): learn how to be a doctor, take care of patients, etc
Neurosurgery Junior Resident (2 years): Learn how to take care of ICU patients, emergency room consults, basic surgical procedures, patient management
Research Requirment (1-2 years) can do basic science research, clinical research, or a mini-fellowship in a subspecialty area of neurosurgery
Neurosurgery Senior Resident (1 year) - more advanced surgical cases, may run your own service (VA hospital), etc, teach junior neurosurgery residents
Neurosurgery Chief Resident (1 year) - most advanced surgical cases,
run the entire service, assign cases, ultimately responsible for everything that happens on the service, decides who gets operations, who doesn't, etc

Residency is about progressive learning... you learn basics first, then more advanced concepts. In order to be proficient at a surgical procedure you have to do it over and over. That takes time since you can only do about 400-500 surgeries per year. You also get progressive responsibility for the care of patients.

You could make an argument that you don't need the 1-2 years of research... but you really can't cut any of the rest of it out... trust me. Even when you finish residency you will still be learning when you are on your own for the next several years.

You don't sound like a genius. You might be, but you don't sound like one. I am of genius level smarts... and I think I needed the entire duration of residency to become an excellent neurosurgeon. If you are truly brilliant... then maybe you don't need all that training...

I think what you don't understand is how difficult the more advanced surgeries are... and how complicated neuroanatomy is.

Tell you what... go learn neuroanatomy in detail including all the tracks, nuclei, their connections and purposes... then come back and let me know if you still think this is easy and should only take 3 years.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Youth is wasted on the young..."Obviously, spending time to learn the fundamentals of medicine woudl be a waste of my amazing talents."

 

[DOme2009]

" You don't sound like a genius. You might be, but you don't sound like one. I am of genius level smarts..."

lol

 

[snicket]

l o effing l~

Listen to NSGYRes.

He is of genius level smarts.

 

[imanifaith]

You cant just play around in someone's head.
You have to know what you are doing.
what do you expect?

 

[Medstudent85]

Neurosurgery is such a love-hate thing for me... Do one of the most difficult things in the world, or watch my kids grow up.. man its tough

 

[glsser]

Neurosurgery is such a love-hate thing for me... Do one of the most difficult things in the world, or watch my kids grow up.. man its tough

So what would you chose?