What helps you MATCH?

[AcronymAllergy]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I don't get it. There is a shortage of internal clinical positions. Why wouldn't they let you go to an externship (and encourage it)?

This sounds terrible. Did you sign a document indicating that you would allow them to decide where you can and cannot apply for your externships?

I agree that it sounds fairly horrible. Is this a clinical scientist, or at least a very research-heavy, program? As erg mentioned, I just don't "get" how they can be hoping (and purporting) to train future CLINICAL psychologists when they're encouraging (and, in your case, forcing) students into non-clinical positions year after year. Where exactly do they expect you to pick up clinical skills, if they aren't going to provide them? Don't get me wrong, research is of course a crucial component of any doctoral training program, but not when it occurs solely at the expense of concomittant clinical training. Again as erg said, that's what non-clinical degrees are for.

 

[Pragma]

I don't know if your program is APA-accredited, but there ought to be some mechanism to file a formal grievance if you are unable to get an appropriate clinical placement.

If not with APA, whatever accrediting body that they list could be contacted. If the process is coercive, you could be a VERY squeaky wheel but it might pay off in the long run for you and others.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Ah, I keep hearing about those programs. Must be absolutely beautific.

Very much to the contrary. If I could do it over again, I would surely attend a different university, I'd have a very different area of research, and I'd have pursued a more traditional academic path. I'm now playing catchup with publications, I have to start studying for boarding this summer/fall...and I also need to find a job. The grass is not always greener. 😉

 

[paramour]

I don't get it. There is a shortage of internal clinical positions. Why wouldn't they let you go to an externship (and encourage it)?

This sounds terrible. Did you sign a document indicating that you would allow them to decide where you can and cannot apply for your externships?

They are concerned about adequate & appropriate supervision. 😛 Other placements they didn't want me to approach because "we're trying to get another paid slot out of them next year" and if they're receiving free services, they may be less likely to say 'yes' to paying more.

Hrm, I'm not sure about formal documents re: the externship information, but it is indicated in our program manual that we are not allowed to work outside of the department without formal agreements and that we work within the department's "process."

I think the real sad part is that, in 4 years (4 years, not 5 or 6..or however long paramour has been in that progam) I gained 1800 hours of practicum experience (900-1000 face-to face hours) in a university clinic, a VA med center and CBOC, an academic medical center clinical-research clinic, and a county hospital. I am now about to finish my internship in the VA. I have been in graduate school a year less than paramour (I think) and I have about twice the experience (or so it sounds like). This makes no sense to me! I dont understand how your progam doesn't see a problem with how its training students. Are they REALLY that out of touch. Do any of your faculty actually practice this profession?

Jeeze. Way to rub it in there, erg. What's sad is I'm considered to be doing "well" with my measly 700+ (face-to-face) hours at one site in a university clinic and outside practicum ... in comparison to some "other" folks. And, yeah, you're allegedly less advanced than li'l ole' me, although I would certainly concede that you have a helluva lot more experience than myself.

I had another conversation with the DCT later today . . . Because I like to squeak! 😛 Again, I received the same message: I have too many hours. There are others who need the sites more. I am doing fine. If I want more assessment hours, return to the training clinic next year. Rinse, recycle, repeat. Arguments regarding lack of assessment, lack of breadth in training due to everything being received at one site, inability to apply to a number of sites due to lack of training experiencing were pointless.

What irritates me (well, plenty that irritates me . . . ) is that there are other students with comparable hours (or more) who are being considered for positions (or told to apply for clinical positions). I knew there were in the past. And I confirmed there are in the current cycle as well after my latest discussion. So I have no idea what their main issue is other than I'm not a particular student or in a particular track.

The only possible semi-positive thing that came out of this conversation is that it *may* now be possible for me to seek an external practicum on my own outside the department. Of course, I still have to find one that the department will approve, but at least they seem to be open this time around. Aaand this also means that they have already basically given me the "you're not being given a practicum placement" for next year response and that I will be most likely declining my assistantship for a second year running. More money out of my pocket. Yippee ki yay mother . . . 😎

Oh, well. On the bright side, I will probably receive better or at least more preferable clinical training than any of the opportunities offered by our department's practicum options.

I don't believe that anyone currently practices on a regular basis. My advisor did some work before being recruited here some years ago, and my previous advisor does some sporadic consulting work. Otherwise, the only practice that I know they get is in the training clinic when they supervise every other semester of every other year (or whatever schedule they happen to follow).

I agree that it sounds fairly horrible. Is this a clinical scientist, or at least a very research-heavy, program? As erg mentioned, I just don't "get" how they can be hoping (and purporting) to train future CLINICAL psychologists when they're encouraging (and, in your case, forcing) students into non-clinical positions year after year. Where exactly do they expect you to pick up clinical skills, if they aren't going to provide them? Don't get me wrong, research is of course a crucial component of any doctoral training program, but not when it occurs solely at the expense of concomittant clinical training. Again as erg said, that's what non-clinical degrees are for.

Nope, scientist-practitioner program. There are some students and professors who are more heavily research focused in the program. But, I would not say this encompasses the majority of the program. As our students receive interviews and (mostly) match, they believe that we receive the experience we need to be successful.

I don't know if your program is APA-accredited, but there ought to be some mechanism to file a formal grievance if you are unable to get an appropriate clinical placement.

If not with APA, whatever accrediting body that they list could be contacted. If the process is coercive, you could be a VERY squeaky wheel but it might pay off in the long run for you and others.

APA-accredited: Yes (and just had a site visit last semester). No one ever files grievances around here anymore because they don't get them anywhere. We're required to go through the ombudsman first--who sides with the department on all issues regardless. They will claim that the department's logic makes sense. Anyone else is leery of complaining in general about anything for fear that it will come back to bite them in the arse when it comes time for recommendations, etc. (and as much as it shouldn't, it does).

Very much to the contrary. If I could do it over again, I would surely attend a different university, I'd have a very different area of research, and I'd have pursued a more traditional academic path. I'm now playing catchup with publications, I have to start studying for boarding this summer/fall...and I also need to find a job. The grass is not always greener. 😉

I feel you on that one. I *should have* listened to my instincts on this cursed place. On the one hand, I keep telling myself that I'm getting something out of it--but it's hard to do most days. I tried to start out more academic; my first advisor killed that one--so I suspect I'm screwed and now floundering on what to do since I'm also screwed clinically (which I thought I was supposed to be training for from the beginning!) I interviewed at a skydiving dropzone recently. Maybe I'll get licensed, drop out of grad school, and jump out of planes for the rest of my days! 😀

 

[erg923]

They are concerned about adequate & appropriate supervision. 😛 Other placements they didn't want me to approach because "we're trying to get another paid slot out of them next year" and if they're receiving free services, they may be less likely to say 'yes' to paying more.

Hrm, I'm not sure about formal documents re: the externship information, but it is indicated in our program manual that we are not allowed to work outside of the department without formal agreements and that we work within the department's "process."




Jeeze. Way to rub it in there, erg. What's sad is I'm considered to be doing "well" with my measly 700+ (face-to-face) hours at one site in a university clinic and outside practicum ... in comparison to some "other" folks. And, yeah, you're allegedly less advanced than li'l ole' me, although I would certainly concede that you have a helluva lot more experience than myself.

I had another conversation with the DCT later today . . . Because I like to squeak! 😛 Again, I received the same message: I have too many hours. There are others who need the sites more. I am doing fine. If I want more assessment hours, return to the training clinic next year. Rinse, recycle, repeat. Arguments regarding lack of assessment, lack of breadth in training due to everything being received at one site, inability to apply to a number of sites due to lack of training experiencing were pointless.

What irritates me (well, plenty that irritates me . . . ) is that there are other students with comparable hours (or more) who are being considered for positions (or told to apply for clinical positions). I knew there were in the past. And I confirmed there are in the current cycle as well after my latest discussion. So I have no idea what their main issue is other than I'm not a particular student or in a particular track.

The only possible semi-positive thing that came out of this conversation is that it *may* now be possible for me to seek an external practicum on my own outside the department. Of course, I still have to find one that the department will approve, but at least they seem to be open this time around. Aaand this also means that they have already basically given me the "you're not being given a practicum placement" for next year response and that I will be most likely declining my assistantship for a second year running. More money out of my pocket. Yippee ki yay mother . . . 😎

Oh, well. On the bright side, I will probably receive better or at least more preferable clinical training than any of the opportunities offered by our department's practicum options.

I don't believe that anyone currently practices on a regular basis. My advisor did some work before being recruited here some years ago, and my previous advisor does some sporadic consulting work. Otherwise, the only practice that I know they get is in the training clinic when they supervise every other semester of every other year (or whatever schedule they happen to follow).




Nope, scientist-practitioner program. There are some students and professors who are more heavily research focused in the program. But, I would not say this encompasses the majority of the program. As our students receive interviews and (mostly) match, they believe that we receive the experience we need to be successful.




APA-accredited: Yes (and just had a site visit last semester). No one ever files grievances around here anymore because they don't get them anywhere. We're required to go through the ombudsman first--who sides with the department on all issues regardless. They will claim that the department's logic makes sense. Anyone else is leery of complaining in general about anything for fear that it will come back to bite them in the arse when it comes time for recommendations, etc. (and as much as it shouldn't, it does).




I feel you on that one. I *should have* listened to my instincts on this cursed place. On the one hand, I keep telling myself that I'm getting something out of it--but it's hard to do most days. I tried to start out more academic; my first advisor killed that one--so I suspect I'm screwed and now floundering on what to do since I'm also screwed clinically (which I thought I was supposed to be training for from the beginning!) I interviewed at a skydiving dropzone recently. Maybe I'll get licensed, drop out of grad school, and jump out of planes for the rest of my days! 😀

It may be pointless, but I would just drive home to your DCT that "the university clinic is NOT the real world." It might be tough for them to hear this, but its true. The "real world" is full of complicated patients, less than ideal amounts of time to "reach them," and (GASP) interdisciplinary treatment models. Its sad that your program wouldn't want to embed you with other medical professionals (or at least doesnt seem to value it) so you can see how the system actually works and how you, the psychologist, fit into the puzzle.

Assessment at your "in-house clinic" is probably not going to be the kind of assessment you actually do in a busy CMH or hospital service. You, more than likely, will learn how to give tests and write a long, pretty report. However, you will likely not learn how to adjust a battery to answer a referral question from a somewhat clueless PCP, write an integrated report that he/she will understand (no mumbo jumbo), and get all that done in 1 day. 😀

 

[Ollie123]

For perspective my (extremely research-focused clinical science) program definitely finds ways to make sure students get clinical experience, so that shouldn't be a factor. I've worked at a (major) VA, the Counseling Center, gotten ~200-300 hours through research activities (both therapy and assessment), plus our in-house clinic that has both general therapy supervision groups and specialty ones where I've been able to get some focused experience with both health psych and neuropsych. This is as one of the more "research-focused" students (and one who is seeking to actively avoid clinical work) at a research-focused program. In other words, there really is no excuse.

We certainly don't have enough paid clinical placements for every student, but in addition to required hours in the in-house clinic, we have opportunities to do smaller, unpaid, external placements (e.g. 4-8 hours/week) that are still possible on top of funded placements/research/etc. Most students come out with around the national average for hours, which I think is respectable since a decent number of us are not planning to have much clinical involvement after graduation. Those planning to pursue clinical careers easily break 1000. It seems nuts to have a shortage of paid placements, and not have either an in-house clinic or one of these alternatives.

 

[paramour]

It may be pointless, but I would just drive home to your DCT that "the university clinic is NOT the real world." It might be tough for them to hear this, but its true. The "real world" is full of complicated patients, less than ideal amounts of time to "reach them," and (GASP) interdisciplinary treatment models. Its sad that your program wouldn't want to embed you with other medical professionals (or at least doesnt seem to value it) so you can see how the system actually works and how you, the psychologist, fit into the puzzle.

Assessment at your "in-house clinic" is probably not going to be the kind of assessment you actually do in a busy CMH or hospital service. You, more than likely, will learn how to give tests and write a long, pretty report. However, you will likely not learn how to adjust a battery to answer a referral question from a somewhat clueless PCP, write an integrated report that he/she will understand (no mumbo jumbo), and get all that done in 1 day. 😀

Yep. I know this. You're preaching to the choir. 😎

They. Do. Not. Listen.

I spent most of the night combing the area (and the not so immediate area) for potential externship opportunities. Emailed some folks with initial contact info expressing interest to determine whether deadlines have passed or whether they'll even consider allowing me to submit an app and materials (many go through a "practicum fair," which also has passed). Speaking with my local contact today. So hopefully I'll get a bite somewhere. So I can work unpaid. Yet again. Woo hoo! 😛 I love being a really starving student. Mac & cheese is yummy!

For perspective my (extremely research-focused clinical science) program definitely finds ways to make sure students get clinical experience, so that shouldn't be a factor. I've worked at a (major) VA, the Counseling Center, gotten ~200-300 hours through research activities (both therapy and assessment), plus our in-house clinic that has both general therapy supervision groups and specialty ones where I've been able to get some focused experience with both health psych and neuropsych. This is as one of the more "research-focused" students (and one who is seeking to actively avoid clinical work) at a research-focused program. In other words, there really is no excuse.

We certainly don't have enough paid clinical placements for every student, but in addition to required hours in the in-house clinic, we have opportunities to do smaller, unpaid, external placements (e.g. 4-8 hours/week) that are still possible on top of funded placements/research/etc. Most students come out with around the national average for hours, which I think is respectable since a decent number of us are not planning to have much clinical involvement after graduation. Those planning to pursue clinical careers easily break 1000. It seems nuts to have a shortage of paid placements, and not have either an in-house clinic or one of these alternatives.

Indeed.

They've worked on increasing sites for one of the tracks. Of course, they're now screwed because they don't have enough students to cover them. And there are no (er, relatively few--practically nonexistent) sites for anyone outside that limited track. They ask for volunteers. People volunteer, and then they tell you 'no.' In the meantime, there also are students who don't want those positions right now (due to familial obligations for the upcoming year) who are being coerced into applying for them because "there's no one else to work them." Ridiculous! 👎

If you complain about it, they point at the sites they've recently acquired (for which you can't apply) and the one or two new sites that they did manage to land outside of that limited track--but they weren't really "new" or anything in excess of what we had previously because they actually replaced sites we LOST the previous year... and the year before that... and the year before that. 🙄

I really thought this was quite normal until I started reading others' experiences. I finally started interjecting into my discussions with the powers that be, "Well, the people I know who have been on internship or who have matched . . . have this experience . . . have these hours . . . do not work at only one site . . . do not work at only their university clinic." So on and so forth. It's going to be funny if they ask for names and I respond with SDN usernames! (Thankfully, I *do* actually know a few "real" folks IRL!)

 

[paramour]

Time for a pity party! I need to vent and you're stuck with it before I send my lovely response to my dept. I need to NOT blow up at them.

As mentioned previously, I did not believe that my dept was considering me for another practicum. I was indeed right. They did not. I reportedly have too many hours (just above nat'l avg for those folks who match at time of internship), even though all of those hours are at the university clinic and one external practicum... and I have no assessment. Their rationale was that other folks needed the hours more. Those other folks they gave positions to have equivalent, if not more hours than myself. They all have experience at multiple sites already. They all have a balance of intervention and assessment.

I decided to try (again!) to locate a voluntary practicum to remedy the situation. As I had problems with this last year, I spoke with the DCT PRIOR to even starting my search. I was given the go-ahead. I applied. I interviewed. I was accepted. I am just now being informed that they are reconsidering their approval and that they need the full faculty's approval for me to work at this site. And that I need to obtain signed paperwork, etc. from this site by the end of the week (umm, you just contacted me?! 🙄).

I *finally* started to breathe a sigh of relief because things were *finally* working out. I should have known better. I suspect they are trying to screw with me (again) and force me into accepting a bullsh*t assistantship. They don't even have a full-time position, so I'd have to split my time between two positions: one working on some research in which I have minimal interest but I'd do it to get some level of funding and one in which I'm someone's errand person for the year. Nevermind, it was acknowledged that this second position provides me with absolutely nothing to gain anywhere on my CV. No clinical work. No research. No teaching. Really?! Previously it was okay that I intended to decline this second position due to the time requirements necessary for the voluntary practicum, and they knew this at the time b/c they would have to find someone else to fill it or lose the funding. Now I receive this bullsh*t.

I'm not sure why they believe this tactic will work when I will be more than "happy" to decline both their positions outright as neither of them gains me much of anything other than some minimal financial benefits in the end.

I'm so ready to quit this place. 👍

 

[SAP76]

.