What I need to be competitive...

[LadyLightning20]

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Hi guys -

I'm a second-semester sophomore at a mediocre state university. I got into better schools, but I received a full scholarship with books, room, board, personal stipend, etc at this university and since I'm one of 4 kids .... I'm sort of scared that the decision to go to a school that has a reputation as a party school will bite me in the butt, so if I'm obsessing please don't write me off as a neurotic premed - I just really want to do MD/PhD and I want to know how much I need to do to extra to make up for the fact that I come from kind of a crappy school.

1. My GPA is 3.98 as of now, and unless something catastrophic happens I don't see that moving a whole lot. (Most of this is upper level bio classes - I got rid of the vast majority of requirements with AP credit.) Also, I have taken two graduate level classes (one masters, one PhD) and gotten A's in both of them. I'm not trying to show off - it's that most undergrad classes are not demanding for me, plus I was actually interested in the subject matter in both cases.

2. I took the MCAT the summer after my freshman year and got a 36T - 13 PS, 12 BS, and 11 VR.

3. I did research in one lab for a little over a year and may (keeping my fingers crossed) get a pub or two, though those will be piggybacked on a grad student, not my own work. I switched labs this semester because I wasn't getting a lot of independent work, and I plan to stay in the lab I'm in until I graduate.

4. My ECs are a little thin on the ground, partly because my research eats a lot of time. I volunteer heavily for Science Olympiad (I mean I write their tests in physiology and anatomy, not just show up the day of and help out. I would say at least ~100 or more hours a year, all told.) I teach at a Hindu organization in my community. I play racquetball and I'm decent, but nothing official is coming of that so far. I have signed up to volunteer as a Spanish interpreter at a nearby clinic but I haven't started that yet.

I guess my questions are these:

1. I know my MCAT is a pretty good score and that it probably will not be the factor that holds me back. To be honest, I probably could have studied harder though.

Considering that I come from a "party school" and my GPA is so high do I need to raise the MCAT to correspond with the GPA so that adcoms don't just think that I got good grades because i"m at an easy school? Or should I focus on putting time into my ECs instead?

2. How much hospital volunteering do I really need to apply competitively?

3. I know the concensus on this forum is that pubs aren't necessary to be admitted. But are they necessary for really good programs (like TriI or Harvard?)

4. I know someone who works on Public health in India and I could easily spend a summer there working with her. The thing is, I could also stay and do research in my lab. I'm really torn between the two (Actually, I'm slightly leaning towards wanting to go to India more than work in my lab) but I was wondering from an admissions standpoint which would be better.

*sigh*. I guess I just get so intimidated reading everyone else's profile about all the amazing things they have done and I feel like I haven't saved the world or cured AIDS yet so I'll never get in. 😉 I've tried to present my situation exactly as it is..any comments or critiques or help would be GREATLY appreciated. And sorry for the long post!

 

[redoc]

Your credentials sound great. I would get AT LEAST one summer worth of hospital experience and start focusing on your extracurriculars. You want your extracurricular and your interests to bring something unique and personal to the table as an applicant. What I tried to do is spend my summers getting clinical experience while spending my academic year working in two labs. Also, I wouldn't worry too much about your school's reputation because MCAT as a standardized test filters that out. Good luck.

 

[jlamacc1]

I guess my questions are these:

1. I know my MCAT is a pretty good score and that it probably will not be the factor that holds me back. To be honest, I probably could have studied harder though.

Considering that I come from a "party school" and my GPA is so high do I need to raise the MCAT to correspond with the GPA so that adcoms don't just think that I got good grades because i"m at an easy school? Or should I focus on putting time into my ECs instead?

2. How much hospital volunteering do I really need to apply competitively?

3. I know the concensus on this forum is that pubs aren't necessary to be admitted. But are they necessary for really good programs (like TriI or Harvard?)

4. I know someone who works on Public health in India and I could easily spend a summer there working with her. The thing is, I could also stay and do research in my lab. I'm really torn between the two (Actually, I'm slightly leaning towards wanting to go to India more than work in my lab) but I was wondering from an admissions standpoint which would be better.

*sigh*. I guess I just get so intimidated reading everyone else's profile about all the amazing things they have done and I feel like I haven't saved the world or cured AIDS yet so I'll never get in. 😉 I've tried to present my situation exactly as it is..any comments or critiques or help would be GREATLY appreciated. And sorry for the long post!

I hail from a school who's reputation derives more from football than academics (Go Vols! <sarcasm>), and early in the application process I was quite worried that this would be an insurmountable disadvantage. I thought that my GPA would be significantly downgraded by adcoms, that my research would not compare with those candidates' coming from hotshot labs (read: Harvard, Yale, the NIH, etc.), and that I did not have that signature world-beating item on my AMCAS which (of course) is required for serious consideration by all elite MSTPs. 😎
As it turns out, all my worries were for naught: I have been quite pleased with the opportunities that have surfaced and I feel like my interviews/acceptances are more indicative of my application than my UG institution. So, take it from me, you will NOT be looked over by adcoms at top flight MD-PhD programs simply because you come from a party school. As long as you have good stats and research (which, it appears, you do), you'll get a fair shake.

Now, on to your questions:

1. Your MCAT score is right where it needs to be. I have yet to be convinced that higher MCAT scores confer a significant advantage once you get into the mid to high 30's. Of course, higher scores are always better, and you have plenty of time to take it again, but if I were in your shoes I'd spend that time on beefing up other parts of your resume.

2. It's difficult to describe clinical experience minimums in terms of hours, but the key is getting enough interaction with docs and patients to be able to say exactly WHY you want both the MD and the PhD instead of only the PhD. Now, I would argue that physician shadowing is more conducive to this end-and therefore more essential to the application-than volunteering, but ideally you'd want to have a significant amount of both on your resume. For example's sake, my experience was that a once-a-week, semester-long volunteering gig, coupled with significant shadowing time, is ample for MD-PhD.

3. I can't say from personal experience whether or not pubs are unofficially required at Tri-I and Harvard, but I know from personal experience that they are not at other prestigious places such as WashU, Stanford, U. Washington, and U. Chicago. Quality of research can be measured by SOOO many other factors besides publication record. I'd say that stellar research LORs are much more vital to your app than pubs.

4. At this stage in the game, I think you'd be just fine taking a semester or two off from the lab. Having 2.5 years of research instead of 3 or 3.5 is definitely NOT an MSTP deal-breaker. Furthermore, going to India in this context will probably give you some extraordinary perspective and allow you to see a different side of the medical/health profession. Who knows, you may discover that this type of work is something you'd want to continue down the road, but even if it doesn't, it'll help solidify what exactly it is that you want to do in the medical world.

Hope this was some help. PM me if you'd like.

 

[seraph524]

You sound exactly like me! A student at a mediocre university hoping to get into a great medical school...

For MD/PhD I suggest lots and lots of research and perhaps teaching as well... Don't skimp on the clinical volunteering - even though its not exactly necessary for the MD/PhD route, having a lot of hours is going to make you stand out.

To answer your questions...

1. That is a very respectable MCAT score...focus on your EC instead.

2. I have over 300+ hours clinical volunteering in college...people seem to be very impressed by my clinical experience for a MD/PhD applicant. So its a good idea to do some.

3. Pubs are not necessary. They just want to see dedication to research and some insight into your project. Pubs are really really hard to get!

4. This is where I'm not quite sure about... In retrospect, I regret not going on study abroad... But I had lab responsibilities, so yea... This one is really up to you...do you think you will have more to gain working in a lab for the summer or by going abroad....

Feel free to message me if you have any specific questions... I myself come from a low-tier school and I am quite happy with what I have done this application cycle.

 

[skillmatic]

*

 

[solumanculver]

Hi,

It seems like any insecurities you have about your application are pretty much unfounded, I won't really get into that.

As for going to India... all I can say is that you shouldn't try to base all decisions in your life on getting into an MSTP. If you want to go to India, then I think you should go. You'll be doing research for the rest of your life, but this is probably the only time you're going to get the chance to have a cool summer in India with your friend, and work on public health.

Personally, I have a bit of an odd background. I lived in the middle east for a year after high school, then spent four years in the army translating Arabic. The rest of my application is ordinary. I have one first-author publication, alright MCAT and GPA, and I go to a school that nobody has heard of... to be honest, I think that doing that wacky stuff when I was younger is what has gotten me the interviews that I have gotten and that part of my life has dominated discussion in the interviews that I go to.

 

[Zmoney12]

Yeah, with respect, I think that the posters who argued you should stay in the lab rather than do public health work in India are crazy.

Think about it, every kid you will interview with will have worked in a lab 1.5-3 years. All of that is exactly the same to MSTP programs, unless you have a first author publication or worked for Francis Collins, Craig Mello, etc.

Just spending time in India would make you stand out, but think of all the things you can say about your experience if it was doing health related things while in India that would make a great case for your application. This by far will make you stand out more than an extra semester/summer in a lab.

I say this from much similar experience. First, I happened to spend a summer abroad doing science things (incidentally, India) and almost everyone has wanted to know in depth how this affected me. Secondly, and I'm not joking, I have had converstions now with multiple MSTP directors in interview situations where they agreed that with very rare exceptions the value of undergraduate research is somewhat limited becasue of time/scheduling restraints and lack of training.

I seriously think you would be making a huge mistake trying to spend an extra summer in some lab rather than doing public health things out in the real world. Of course this is only my opinon, but come on think about it-- you are a sophomore in college you need to experience life and you are not about to solve any crystal structures on your own in 3 months time.

PM me if you have any questions, but do what you want to do and spin it in a good light to the admissions committee and you will be golden, don't waste your time doing stuff just for the sake of having spent time on it.

 

[meowkat444]

also vote for doing something interesting and unique. i didn't plan to apply to med school or mstp as an undergrad, and therefore my profile is weird. i only did a little bit of clinical volunteering (although lots of other volunteering). you'll see that this is going well for me. i think interviewers are grateful to have unusual stuff to talk about.

in the end, whatever you do that you're passionate for will really come through in your application.

 

[j-weezy]

I hail from a school who's reputation derives more from football than academics (Go Vols! <sarcasm>)

who the hell are the vols? now my school is well known for football...

 

[Picklesali]

who the hell are the vols? now my school is well known for football...

I couldn't figure out for the life of me what a "vol" was. At first, I thought it might be the misspelled plural of one of these cute little critters:

But then, Wikipedia told me that is was short for the "volunteers." Okay, how lame is that?

POLL: Is this the lamest mascot you've ever heard of? If not, please share!

 

[seraph524]

I couldn't figure out for the life of me what a "vol" was. At first, I thought it might be the misspelled plural of one of these cute little critters:

But then, Wikipedia told me that is was short for the "volunteers." Okay, how lame is that?

POLL: Is this the lamest mascot you've ever heard of? If not, please share!

The lamest mascot I have ever heard of is the Tree at Stanford. I mean come on...its a TREE.

 

[j-weezy]

POLL: Is this the lamest mascot you've ever heard of? If not, please share!

daisy

 

[Picklesali]

Originally Posted by Picklesali
POLL: Is this the lamest mascot you've ever heard of? If not, please share!

All right, I'll admit, this wasn't the all-time lamest mascot I've ever heard of. There is a school near my home-town and their mascot is the Boiling Springs Bubblers... 🙄

 

[skillmatic]

Sorry if I didn't catch your sarcasm; I'm a banana slug, so I'll believe anything.

 

[magwi11]

Sorry if I didn't catch your sarcasm; I'm a banana slug, so I'll believe anything.

My high school was the "fighting daisies"

Our brother school was the "winged beavers"

ahhhh... the specialness of prep school.

 

[OncDoc19]

In high school I ran against a team called the pretzels. Can't remember the name of the town but its a suburb of Chicago.

 

[j-weezy]

Sorry if I didn't catch your sarcasm; I'm a banana slug, so I'll believe anything.

it wasn't college...it was a high school

 

[j-weezy]

My high school was the "fighting daisies"

Our brother school was the "winged beavers"

ahhhh... the specialness of prep school.

weird...we were the killer daisies



p.s. killer >> fighting

 

[magwi11]

weird...we were the killer daisies



p.s. killer >> fighting

I don't know about that...

Where did you go to school, I feel like we're sisters.

 

[Neuronix]

I want to know how much I need to do to extra to make up for the fact that I come from kind of a crappy school.

I don't know what you're talking about. I went to a no-name state school. There's plenty of "no name undergrad MD/PhDs out there. I don't know who the heck put these ideas about how your school is going to hurt you into your head but get them out of your head because it's almost a non-issue.

4. My ECs are a little thin on the ground, partly because my research eats a lot of time. I volunteer heavily for Science Olympiad (I mean I write their tests in physiology and anatomy, not just show up the day of and help out. I would say at least ~100 or more hours a year, all told.) I teach at a Hindu organization in my community. I play racquetball and I'm decent, but nothing official is coming of that so far. I have signed up to volunteer as a Spanish interpreter at a nearby clinic but I haven't started that yet.

Again, I don't understand what your issue is here. You're doing plenty. Who are you comparing yourself to?!

Considering that I come from a "party school" and my GPA is so high do I need to raise the MCAT to correspond with the GPA so that adcoms don't just think that I got good grades because i"m at an easy school?

Are you aware that a 36 is approximately 96-97th percentile already? You want to be 99th percentile?! Nobody is splitting hairs like that. Retaking the MCAT would be a waste of time.

Or should I focus on putting time into my ECs instead?

Sure, or you know... Relaxing 😛

2. How much hospital volunteering do I really need to apply competitively?

Ranges from none to approximately 100 hours total. It's hardly a requirement. I know many people in my program who didn't do any shadowing/volunteering. That being said, you'll want to get some clinical exposure whether that's shadowing a doc or volunteering in the hospital for the schools that do care about it.

PS: I don't want to hear the BUT NEURONIX! EVERYONE SHOULD DO THAT PLEA! In my opinion nobody knows if medicine is for them and what field they want to go into until they spend days full time doing it. In my opinion it's just another hoop to jump through, but not everyone shares that opinion...

3. I know the concensus on this forum is that pubs aren't necessary to be admitted. But are they necessary for really good programs (like TriI or Harvard?)

No. Get as much research exposure as you can though. You'll probably have several years of work when you apply which is good. If you can back that up with concrete things (not required, but helps, like posters/abstracts/pubs/etc) and excellent letters that will make you a strong candidate.

4. I know someone who works on Public health in India and I could easily spend a summer there working with her. The thing is, I could also stay and do research in my lab. I'm really torn between the two (Actually, I'm slightly leaning towards wanting to go to India more than work in my lab) but I was wondering from an admissions standpoint which would be better.

Do what you want to do. I'm not sure either is "better" from an admissions standpoint.

any comments or critiques or help would be GREATLY appreciated.

Your worrying is very unnecessary. Keep up the high GPA and the research work and barring something odd and unforeseen you'll probably do well in admissions.

 

[QofQuimica]

Just want to second everything Neuro said.

OP, the debt some kids take on for whatever supposed advantage a name brand college will give you is a huge scam, IMHO. I was another high-strung HS student who elected to take the full state school scholarship rather than pay to go OOS. Can't say that it has hurt me in any way whatsoever. I still got accepted to multiple top medical schools, just like my Ivy-graduate classmates did.

For the record, you seriously *don't* have to worry as much as you are. Just keep doing what you're already doing; many premeds would kill for your academic record. I know that you will obsess and be neurotic anyway, and I was the same way at your age. But I'm still doing the obligatory telling you not to, anyway. 😉

I vote for going to India this summer. Besides being a great experience and giving you a chance to serve others, a little outside perspective can only help you. Plus it will be something interesting to talk about at interviews.

Best of to you. 🙂

 

[j-weezy]

In my opinion nobody knows if medicine is for them and what field they want to go into until they spend days full time doing it. In my opinion it's just another hoop to jump through, but not everyone shares that opinion...

truer words have not been spoken (written?)

 

[seraph524]

truer words have not been spoken (written?)

Yea...everything in life is just hoops. School, relationships, etc.

 

[Jorje286]

lol, not trying to be rude, but this is hilarious. You still have at least one year to build your profile, and it already looks exceptional. Just keep doing whatever you're doing.

 

[pseudoknot]

Sorry if I didn't catch your sarcasm; I'm a banana slug, so I'll believe anything.

Go slugs!

 

[FoxTrot12]

OK, one more plug for the India trip.
Personally, my rout to MD/PhD was pretty out of the ordinary and I feel like that is the main reason for both my confidence in my decision to go for it, and the success that I have had. Passing up a chance to have what could be such an incredible experience for one more summer in the lab just isn't worth it (in my opinion.) Go, have fun, learn something totally unique, and then you have your whole life to spend in the lab. Best of luck and, in it's most sincere meaning, no worries! 🙂

P.S. A school near my university was the Watersmeet Nimrods... that's right, the Nimrods! 😛

 

[LadyLightning20]

I feel a lot better - thank you guys so much. (It really is nicer here than in pre-allo. Maybe I've just absorbed too much of the atmosphere from lurking there.)

Appreciate all the help - I'll try and give it back a couple of years from now when more nervous kids in my situation show up freaking out.

 

[seraph524]

I feel a lot better - thank you guys so much. (It really is nicer here than in pre-allo. Maybe I've just absorbed too much of the atmosphere from lurking there.)

Appreciate all the help - I'll try and give it back a couple of years from now when more nervous kids in my situation show up freaking out.

Haha, yep, we are definitely nicer than those pre-allo kids... Feel free to ask more questions, theres tons of great advice to be given from everybody here.

Just don't ask things like "omg I got a B+, can I still get into med school???" 😉

 

[Neuronix]

Yea...everything in life is just hoops. School, relationships, etc.

I think in life, some things truly matter. The things you need to know and learn to be a doctor are not hoops. Your relationship with a loved one is not a hoop as long as you view procreation or even just having significant others to be an important part of a fulfilling life.

Other things we have to do but for reasons that are not at all clear to me--Step 2 CK for example. Those things I liken to being a fancy poodle jumping through a hoop. Everyone requires you do it, trains you to do it, and will beat you if you don't do it, but in reality it has nothing to do with whatever you were tying to accomplish.

Volunteering as a pre-med... I'm not sure what it really does for you. It's so extremely superficial and usually in one area of medicine. Typically as a pre-med no doc is going to pay a lot of attention to you to teach you something/help you in any way, so you stand around and don't really learn anything. The only exception is if you or your family knows people. Nothing is gained by the experience. I would say absolutely not to base your decision to go into medicine based on your shadowing/hospital volunteering experience, whether it was positive or negative, because it really has nothing to do with being an MD/PhD nor does it expose you in any way in depth or to the breadth of things you can do in medicine.

I call the MCAT a hoop. Does anyone here really think MCAT is going to predict your future success getting grants or treating patients? Therefore, it's a hoop. The unfortunate thing is that this is a necessary hoop. The one thing it does do is separate all the people who want to be doctors. It separates the serious enough to study their *** off for the MCAT from the not so serious. Unfortunately it also in some ways separates those who can afford good MCAT prep from those who cannot, but oh well, nobody ever talks about that.

The same goes for organic chemistry. Unless you do research in orgo chem or something, you will NEVER EVER use organic chemistry again and it has absolutely nothing to do with what you learn in medical school. The one thing it does serve to do is separate those who are serious enough about their desire to be doctors to memorize all sorts of trivia unrelated to anything in life versus those who aren't. Since it has nothing to do with you becoming a good doctor, it's a hoop. It's like when the horses jump over the bars in those field competitions. Is jumping over little bars required to be a good horse? No, being a good horse in the wild involves lots of standing around, eating grass, and running from danger. But... Only so many horses can win the prize (medical school), so jump we do.

Your radical MD/PhD administrator out...

 

[seraph524]

Haha, I didn't intend on sounding so negative...

 

[Jorje286]

I call the MCAT a hoop. Does anyone here really think MCAT is going to predict your future success getting grants or treating patients? Therefore, it's a hoop. The unfortunate thing is that this is a necessary hoop. The one thing it does do is separate all the people who want to be doctors. It separates the serious enough to study their *** off for the MCAT from the not so serious. Unfortunately it also in some ways separates those who can afford good MCAT prep from those who cannot, but oh well, nobody ever talks about that.

I disagree on this one. Studying alone won't guaranty a good score on the MCAT. A lot of it involves rational thinking and analysis of information, which I guess are important qualities for a doctor. It isn't perfect in measuring one's academic abilities (nevertheless his/her aptitude to be a doctor), but nonetheless, it's still a good measure. It also makes it easier for the adcoms to judge students coming from unknown or weak universities, which I guess on one hand benefits those who couldn't afford ivy leagues.