What is our obligation to the homeless?

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however, being mentally ill they cannot be held fully responsible for their actions and must be given help and support required. And I believe, it is our (ie, the society's) responsibility to provide such help.

Problem here is most of the homeless that are mentally ill are within their ability to know right from wrong. Another problem is several of the homeless, even those with mental illness do not want psychiatric help, and it would be unethical & a violation of the law & the patient's constitutional rights for doctors to "force" help by committing them unless that person truly was dangerous.

And that several homeless patients are not mentally ill, but are willing to fake symptoms for 3 hots & a cot. "I'm only going to be suicidal if you don't provide me with a place to stay".

Then, there's the layer immediately above the homeless--that are poor but have a place to stay & see the mental health system as a vacation (they get someone making their meals, looking after them etc). I kid you not I saw that a lot at the place I worked at. Some guy for example gets into a fight with his roommate--he immediately went to the ER saying he was suicidal, knowing it'd land him a free place to stay for a few days. Another big group were welfare patients who used up all their welfare money on cocaine & now that they got not food for the rest of the month--they'll fake symptoms to get a place that serves free food. By the end & beginning of the month, there were almost no substance abusers on the unit or crisis center, but about mid week they start piling up. Why? Because the welfare checks are given in the beginning of the month. You can tell who the fakers are with 99.999% accuracy because if you hold one of those types in the inpatient unit right before welfare payday--they're begging to get out and are not showing any signs of mental illness.

As for making a law to prevent patients from being referred to the homeless shelter, that's what the homeless shelter is for. Its very purpose is to house the homeless & several homeless shelters also provide medical treatment & jobs training programs. Why LA would want to prevent that goes beyond reason. If they have a problem with their homeless shelters--wouldn't the common sense solution be to fix whatever that problem is, instead of keeping patients in the hospital?
 
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Problem here is most of the homeless that are mentally ill are within their ability to know right from wrong. Another problem is several of the homeless, even those with mental illness do not want psychiatric help, and it would be unethical & a violation of the law & the patient's constitutional rights for doctors to "force" help by committing them unless that person truly was dangerous.

And that several homeless patients are not mentally ill, but are willing to fake symptoms for 3 hots & a cot. "I'm only going to be suicidal if you don't provide me with a place to stay".

Then, there's the layer immediately above the homeless--that are poor but have a place to stay & see the mental health system as a vacation (they get someone making their meals, looking after them etc). I kid you not I saw that a lot at the place I worked at. Some guy for example gets into a fight with his roommate--he immediately went to the ER saying he was suicidal, knowing it'd land him a free place to stay for a few days. Another big group were welfare patients who used up all their welfare money on cocaine & now that they got not food for the rest of the month--they'll fake symptoms to get a place that serves free food. By the end & beginning of the month, there were almost no substance abusers on the unit or crisis center, but about mid week they start piling up. Why? Because the welfare checks are given in the beginning of the month. You can tell who the fakers are with 99.999% accuracy because if you hold one of those types in the inpatient unit right before welfare payday--they're begging to get out and are not showing any signs of mental illness.

As for making a law to prevent patients from being referred to the homeless shelter, that's what the homeless shelter is for. Its very purpose is to house the homeless & several homeless shelters also provide medical treatment & jobs training programs. Why LA would want to prevent that goes beyond reason. If they have a problem with their homeless shelters--wouldn't the common sense solution be to fix whatever that problem is, instead of keeping patients in the hospital?

I agree with you on many points, whopper. However, I did not make myself clear enough when I said that mentally ill cannot be held fully responsible for their actions. In the strict legal sense, there are relatively few mentally ill individuals that can plead "diminished responsibility" or whatever you call it, based on not knowing right from wrong - and I was not talking about that subgroup. Rather, I was trying to say that mental illness has a negative impact on the individual ability to take his/her fate into their own hands and turn their lives around.

I also appreciate that in many cases the individual concerned may well have contributed to the development and/or progress of their mental illness (eg, a schizophrenic getting stoned on a daily basis; or a depressed person drinking 4 litres of cider per day😱). I have to say, though, that in most cases you cannot just put the blame on the individual concerned, ignoring the influence that their environment had on their identity formation. Plus, last time I checked we still had the obligation to treate life-long smokers for COPD or lung cancer - how is this different?
 
"Put the blame" is a way you can put it, however I'm not talking about blame. People deserve 2nd, 3rd, 4th, even 5th chances & so on. We all make mistakes--even doctors, plenty of them, and we always will. I know I will, and to worry too much about my future mistakes is a mistake too-because then I'll be paralyzed into taking no action at all.

Its not about blaming someone for being homeless, but more so saying that I as a doctor or the hospital are not responsible for sheltering the homeless & also have the responsibility to keep malingerers out. (This really isn't what you mentioned so this more of me on a rant than addressing what you brought up).

And who should be responsible for sheltering the homeless? The homeless shelter, aka the rescue mission.

But apparently (& again, someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not going to sign up to the WSJ) LA doesn't want the homeless shelter to shelter the homeless, they want the hospitals to do that.

Anyways, I'm going to spend a few minutes to see if there's any other articles I can drum up concerning this issue without having to sign up with the WSJ. (edit--can't find any other articles on it-seems like the recent LA homeless medical fraud problem is putting too many hits, hiding the issue I'm looking for)


Now with regards to what you mentioned with the homeless-yes several of them do have mental illness, and this is not a criticism of you because you never alleged what I'm going to criticize. We as doctors & that includes the hospital) can only lead the horse to the water for non-committed patients. We can't make them drink it (we can when we commit patients--but as you know we can only do that if they're dangerous).

Several of the mentally ill & yes many of them are homeless--they will not take the drink we offer, and we can't force them to take it either. This in turn pretty much lands these people back to where they were. Yes they can be offered mental health services at the rescue mission, you can land them a day program, etc. Then when the van driver for the program shows up to the RM, and that homeless/MI guy won't show up because he's high, or he doesn't show up to his outpatient appointment when you know he was fully capable of doing so (the office is only about 4 blocks from the RM) well there's only so much you can do.

I'm not blaming any of them. I'm just not going to force-commit them either simply because they are homeless & mentally ill, unless they meet commitment criteria--which the majority do not. I will of course refer those homeless I get that I believe are truly mentally ill to the rescue mission or other appropriate places that can offer help.
 
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In case anybody wants the article:

LOS ANGELES -- Hospitals here have been shamed in recent years by reports some of them dumped homeless patients onto downtown's skid row before they were well enough to care for themselves. Now, hospitals caught in the act will be charged with a crime.Hospital administrators fear that a conviction could trigger an automatic exclusion from government health programs, a financial blow few hospitals could survive. They also worry about the cost of keeping patients who are healthy enough to be discharged but have no place to go.

Homeless patients have at times received poor treatment by hospitals in other U.S. cities, but the issue has been particularly visible in Los Angeles because of documented reports of patients being dropped off at shelters. The issue achieved national attention after last year's Michael Moore film "Sicko" included video of an elderly woman apparently being dropped off by a taxi on the street while wearing little more than a hospital gown.

"The most important thing is to get culture change in the way that hospitals discharge patients," says a spokesman for Los Angeles City Attorney Rockard J. Delgadillo, whose office is investigating about 50 suspected dumping cases from before June 30, when the law took effect.

The Hospital Association of Southern California says it has asked an attorney to investigate whether the measure violates state law. The association is also seeking clarity from the federal agency that oversees Medicare on the consequences of a conviction.

Several hospitals have admitted failings in their procedures for homeless patients and say they have made changes. They say it has become increasingly difficult to discharge these patients because many refuse to leave.

While the hospitals say they accept their responsibility for the patients' medical care, they say they are being asked to house them after they are treated. The average length of stay for a homeless patient is 4½ days longer than that for others with comparable conditions, says James Lott, executive vice president of the hospital association.

Los Angeles doesn't have enough "recuperative beds," a type of transitional housing for discharged hospital patients who need further medical attention. To help alleviate the shortage, county agencies and private hospitals are financing a pilot project to add 30 beds, bringing the total to 75. Hospitals are also revising procedures for discharge planning, including specialized training for staff members.
A financial crisis in the county's public-health-care system in recent years has led to the closure of many community clinics where homeless people used to go for primary care, so now they are more often going to hospital emergency rooms, Mr. Lott says.

In hospitals, patients have a "nice, warm bed, three meals a day and maybe even a television and people waiting on them. They are literally saying to us, 'I don't want to go. If you discharge me, I will call the L.A. Times,' " says Carol Meyer, director of governmental relations for the Los Angeles County's Department of Health Services.
Thirty to 50 homeless people who no longer have a medical need to be there stay at the county's downtown hospital every night, she says.

Some hospital officials and employees say the new law is being used as an excuse by shelters to deny priority to homeless people after they are well enough to leave the hospital. "When you call a shelter and say, 'We have a patient with no acute-care needs that we would like to send,' all they say is, 'Have them go stand in line at 3 p.m.,' " Ms. Meyer says. Hospitals have little choice but to spend more than an average $1,350 for a homeless person to spend the night, Mr. Lott says.

Last year, one homeless man in his 40s spent several months at Methodist Hospital in Arcadia, Calif., a Los Angeles suburb, after his medical condition had stabilized, says Gloria Nuesch, director of the hospital's care-coordination department. He didn't want to leave, so the hospital kept him until it was able to enroll him in a government-assistance program. Complying with the city's new law is difficult, she says, because about half the hospital's homeless patients won't sign discharge consent forms. "We can't force them," she says.

Methodist Hospital, Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center and Kaiser Permanente, a managed-care organization, have each reached agreements with Mr. Delgadillo's office over the past year or so to resolve investigations into alleged incidences of patient dumping.

The Rev. Andy Bales, director of Union Rescue Mission, the city's largest homeless shelter, says he is "thrilled" that the new law is working well. The mission can't always accept discharged patients, he adds, because "we can't medically meet their needs." He says he doesn't discuss the new law with homeless guests, but he acknowledges that "these can be difficult patients to deal with."
 
I feel that much of the homeless issue would dissolve if we had universal medical records where you can see a patient has come in a billion times to the ER of several hospitals.

What was one rule of the Asylum of God? Those who need to be committed don't want to be committed and those who dont need committment want to be committed.
 
Well for better or worse, now that I read the article, it was just as bad as I feared it would be (assuming the article is reporting it correctly).

In short, LA would make it illegal for hospitals to refer the homeless to the rescue mission for housing, and the rescue mission is supposed to be where they're referred. Hospitals aren't supposed to be responsible for housing the homeless, the homeless shelter is for that. Now they'll be forcing doctors & nurses, who are trained to give medical therapy to be makeshift homeless shelter managers.

Maybe LA can follow its own logic on this law and also make it illegal for a hungry person to be referred to a restaurant, grocery store or soup kitchen. Heck maybe LA can now force its hospitals to feed those without food. IF that were the case, and if I were trying to save money to buy a sports car, I can bum a free meal from the hospital instead of having to pay for it out of my own pocket.

I saw Sicko. Moore criticized our system for bringing homeless people to a shelter. Maybe Moore can, out of his own pocket pay for hospital housing which would run over $1000/day so it won't come off the backs of people who really need medical services.

Let LA make this idiot mistake, and pay for it. As long as I don't have to pay for it, fine by me. They'll realize what an idiot move this is after the fact and wish they never did it. It'll serve as an example for other cities.
 
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