What makes a compelling story?

[Endoxifen]

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In an applicant pool saturated with brilliant students, what is actually compelling to adcoms?It is one thing to be a perfect applicant, but another to be a desirable applicant. Is it the person? Something compelling and essential about their personality? Or is it their experiences?

 

[ciucia53]

I think a compelling applicant is one that participates in ECs they are passionate about and is able to translate that passion in their essays and during their interview.

 

[deleted738762]

I want to answer this question, but as i'm writing this answer it amazes me how no one has a real answer. You really don't know what they are looking for because their are so many confounding variables. Also you might meet all the criteria, Great GPA & Mcat, great EC's, great research, great personality, and you still might not get in. I think it's a dumb system. Obviously some will say otherwise, but I've come to learn you can't really trust the system they use.

Also wouldn't the perfect applicant also be the most desirable?

 

[Lost in Translation]

One that you're passionate about. I could talk for hours and hours about cars and MTG and Friday nights spent playing DnD with my friends. I could also talk for hours about overnight shifts in the ED while my colleagues are all out partying. Never do something because someone else says you should. Do it because you want to.

 

[Endoxifen]

I want to answer this question, but as i'm writing this answer it amazes me how no one has a real answer. You really don't know what they are looking for because their are so many confounding variables. Also you might meet all the criteria, Great GPA & Mcat, great EC's, great research, great personality, and you still might not get in. I think it's a dumb system. Obviously some will say otherwise, but I've come to learn you can't really trust the system they use.

Also wouldn't the perfect applicant also be the most desirable?

I've had conversations with a couple deans of admissions and they both told me they want to be invested in your narrative. GPA and MCAT open the door, but they are looking for something ineffable in their applicants which will make them exceptional.

To answer your question though, I think it depends on your reference frame. Perfect by the numbers and truly passionate might not grab them.

 

[Endoxifen]

One that you're passionate about. I could talk for hours and hours about cars and MTG and Friday nights spent playing DnD with my friends. I could also talk for hours about overnight shifts in the ED while my colleagues are all out partying. Never do something because someone else says you should. Do it because you want to.

I think we'd get along well.

 

[deleted738762]

Perfect by the numbers and truly passionate might not grab them.

Hence why it's a dumb system. Great on paper (GPA + EC's + MCAT) and a true passion should be what you need. They should have realistic representation of students, many students have jobs, college, not everyone has time to be a president of a club and this that. Im arguing you can have all that, and still have the possibility of not getting in. I'm thinking that adcoms, themselves, are evolving by becoming more strict for the sake of medical school. Sort of like the appeal to prestige fallacy.

 

[Endoxifen]

Hence why it's a dumb system. Great on paper (GPA + EC's + MCAT) and a true passion should be what you need. They should have realistic representation of students, many students have jobs, college, not everyone has time to be a president of a club and this that. Im arguing you can have all that, and still have the possibility of not getting in. I'm thinking that adcoms, themselves, are evolving by becoming more strict for the sake of medical school.

I don't disagree, but it's their prerogative. With finite resources and an abundance of applicants, it's not surprising that they are so discerning.

 

[Lucca]

I do think some people are just genuinely interesting. For example, a single parent who was able to go back to school and finish their pre-reqs and take the MCAT while taking care of their kid(s). That demonstrates extraordinary commitment and, if they were able to do it well, much academic promise. Who is the person that would 1) choose to do such a thing and then 2) actually accomplish it? It makes you just want to meet them.

Maybe someone is a world-class X. In our society, we are fascinated by hyper-achievement and we like to know what makes the-best-of-the-best in anything, the best. We have an intrinsic value for hard work and combined with a compelling underdog story, their narrative might play to our collective cultural fantasies.

Perhaps someone has taken a non-traditional route in their education but with the goal of medicine always in mind and that came through in the application. People might be interested to hear why they chose the path they did or what motivates them.

These things can come through in the application because one can write a theme into it and the somewhat inherently chronological nature of the thing is conducive to forming a narrative.

One thing that I think is probably not captured as well or is under-valued is just basic moral aptitude. I think the process is very quick to condemn institutional blemishes like misdemeanors, arrests, IAs, etc. but it would be incorrect to conflate wrongdoing in all of those cases with moral failure. Conversely, what do we do to select for positive moral qualities? We say 'altruism' but functionally it means box-checking. Is there any effort to go above and beyond our ability to capture moral aptitude in applicants? Do we know that not only are people able to tell "legal" from "illegal" but "right" from "wrong" and have a deeper, more complex understanding of what is valuable and good to them, or that they have a moral imagination for the way they and others ought to be? Society ought to be? The medical profession? Beyond being merely 'realistic' or knowledgeable and competent about the current state of affairs in society and in the profession, do they have a vision for the world that they believe is worth working towards? I don't think these qualities are captured well in the narrative application structure.

That being said, I don't think every single doctor needs to be Socrates, just as every single doctor does not need to be a champion tennis player or a single parent. I just think it would be nice if the process appeared to care more about the moral element.

 

[Goro]

We like come-from-behind stories....you know rags to riches, Horatio Alger sort of stuff. It's in our American DNA. In a nutshell, people who have overcome great odds and succeeded.

In an applicant pool saturated with brilliant students, what is actually compelling to adcoms?It is one thing to be a perfect applicant, but another to be a desirable applicant. Is it the person? Something compelling and essential about their personality? Or is it their experiences?

Bio, we are doing nothing of the sort in your last sentence.

The bolded is usually enough, but there tons of people like this. Hence, a student who had to work part time to support siblings because thier parents were in jail, or missing, or who still managed to be a good student while being homeless, demonstrate some things very necessary for meds students, and that is also hard to see in the folks who don't have the stories: resilience and coping skills.

They thus bring something very valuable to the Class.

My pal @Affiche is one such person.

Hence why it's a dumb system. Great on paper (GPA + EC's + MCAT) and a true passion should be what you need. They should have realistic representation of students, many students have jobs, college, not everyone has time to be a president of a club and this that. Im arguing you can have all that, and still have the possibility of not getting in. I'm thinking that adcoms, themselves, are evolving by becoming more strict for the sake of medical school. Sort of like the appeal to prestige fallacy.

 

[deleted738762]

I don't disagree, but it's their prerogative. With finite resources and an abundance of applicants, it's not surprising that they are so discerning.

Their discernment is based on their subjectivity, hence highly flawed system. Obviously they represent a college and it's interests, but that only goes to an extent, just as stats go to an extent, and then it falls into the abyss of subjectivity. They might say otherwise, but they aren't fooling me! lol.

I'm not saying all are like this, but I've come to notice this pattern.

 

[Goro]

It only seems highly flawed to people who never engage in it. For our side of the table, it makes perfect sense.

Their discernment is based on their subjectivity, hence highly flawed system. Obviously they represent a college and it's interests, but that only goes to an extent, just as stats go to an extent, and then it falls into the abyss of subjectivity. They might say otherwise, but they aren't fooling me! lol.

I'm not saying all are like this, but I've come to notice this pattern.

 

[deleted738762]

We like come-from-behind stories....you know rags to riches, Horatio Alger sort of stuff. It's in our American DNA. In a nutshell, people who have overcome great odds and succeeded.



Bio, we are doing nothing of the sort in your last sentence.

The bolded is usually enough, but there tons of people like this. Hence, a student who had to work part time to support siblings because thier parents were in jail, or missing, or who still managed to be a good student while being homeless, demonstrate some things very necessary for meds students, and that is also hard to see in the folks who don't have the stories: resilience and coping skills.

They thus bring something very valuable to the Class.

My pal @Affiche is one such person.

I understand. However, how do you validate that or trust that? I can say I've been working 40 hours a week at my uncle's store because my family needs my help. But, how do you know if I'm lying or not? I can say make up any story about resilience and make it sound very appealing, so how will you discern through it?

 

[deleted738762]

It only seems highly flawed to people who never engage in it. For our side of the table, it makes perfect sense.

That's true as well I'm not sitting where you are sitting, but from my perspective this what I have come to notice.

 

[libertyyne]

In an applicant pool saturated with brilliant students, what is actually compelling to adcoms?It is one thing to be a perfect applicant, but another to be a desirable applicant. Is it the person? Something compelling and essential about their personality? Or is it their experiences?

The saturation of brilliant students is a myth imho. There are a limited number of applicants with gpa >3.8 and mcat >35. These Applicants will get seats for the most part provided they have a reasonable interview and some ECS which shows that they know what they getting into and research depending on the school they are applying to. These Applicants probably don't get in if they have other red flags and personality issues or limited school lists.
It seems like adcoms appreciate excellence and commitment in endeavours one undertakes. One should not go into this process with the intent of getting into med school rather should approach the process with an eye on exceptional in what the choose to participate . So if your passion is music, just taking a class and jamming with your buddies wouldn't impress them, rather studying in a juliard and performing on a high level, publishing your own music would. You could still display your commitment to others by participating in charities that play music for the deaf or something like that. There is a whole sticky on box checking, I would read that to gain a better perspective. This doesn't mean that music has any valid relationship to the kind of physician you will be, rather it is a snapshot of you as a person and how you approach things in life. If you want to go to your state school and your stats are close to their median, you really just have to box check and blunt force the ECS by having enough hours in them.

 

[Goro]

We're pretty good at spotting liars. Peoples transcripts and LORs also provide data points to back things up.

I understand. However, how do you validate that or trust that. I can say I've been working 40 hours a week at my uncle's store because my family needs my help. But, how do you know if I'm lying or not. I can say make up any story about resilience and make it sound very appealing, so how will you discern through it?

 

[deleted738762]

We're pretty good at spotting liars. Peoples transcripts and LORs also provide data points to back things up.

I work in my uncle's store for 40 hours but I can't show proof of that because I can't reference him. I can only explain my day to day experiences there, and that is the only way you can validate it, right? My transcripts don't show me working 40 hours a week, nor does my professor who writes my LoR know I work 40 hours a week. Heck, I'm a TA who works part time, for all I know my professor thinks that my only job.

This also ties into another point. I am constantly looking for hobbies/jobs in which I can have proof to show for med school application. Even though I love what I do, most of the things I do cannot be validated and can only be trusted through what I say. I can be great liar and you will never know. ( I'm not saying I am a liar, but i'm pointing out a realistic flaw.)

 

[libertyyne]

Hence why it's a dumb system. Great on paper (GPA + EC's + MCAT) and a true passion should be what you need. They should have realistic representation of students, many students have jobs, college, not everyone has time to be a president of a club and this that. Im arguing you can have all that, and still have the possibility of not getting in. I'm thinking that adcoms, themselves, are evolving by becoming more strict for the sake of medical school. Sort of like the appeal to prestige fallacy.

It is a system that the privileged (those that do not have to work to finance their education) or the connected ( those with connections that can land them in interesting ECS ) have a leg up, but that is true for most of life .

 

[Goro]

You mean > 3.8 and > 35? You're describing the median acceptee from at least 20 med schools!

But a good post all the same. You bring up points I have forgotten. For example, I have interviewed Juilliard students! So the road travelled, even if it's not a tragic one, is also compelling.

To the list we can add immigrants or First generation Americans; first in family to go to college, Olympians or other athletes, and musicians. Being "the Juilliard kid" or "violin player" also sticks in the mind of the Adcom member better than "the Rice U kid".

The saturation of brilliant students is a myth imho. There are a limited number of applicants with gpa < 3.8 and mcat < 35. These Applicants will get seats for the most part provided they have a reasonable interview and some ECS which shows that they know what they getting into and research depending on the school they are applying to. These Applicants probably don't get in if they have other red flags and personality issues or limited school lists.
It seems like adcoms appreciate excellence and commitment in endeavours one undertakes. One should not go into this process with the intent of getting into med school rather should approach the process with an eye on exceptional in what the choose to participate . So if your passion is music, just taking a class and jamming with your buddies wouldn't impress them, rather studying in a juliard and performing on a high level, publishing your own music would. You could still display your commitment to others by participating in charities that play music for the deaf or something like that. There is a whole sticky on box checking, I would read that to gain a better perspective. This doesn't mean that music has any valid relationship to the kind of physician you will be, rather it is a snapshot of you as a person and how you approach things in life. If you want to go to your state school and your stats are close to their median, you really just have to box check and blunt force the ECS by having enough hours in them.

 

[deleted738762]

It is a system that the privileged (those that do not have to work to finance their education) or the connected ( those with connections that can land them in interesting ECS ) have a leg up, but that is true for most of life .

Very true, but I wasn't arguing that. I was arguing that you can meet all the criteria, and still have the possibility of not getting in.

Also, with respect to your post, it sucks because you can find research easier with connections, compared to a student who came straight from the ghetto with know assistance or prior background knowledge of what they need for med school besides the grades and MCAT.

 

[Endoxifen]

rather it is a snapshot of you as a person and how you approach things in life.

That's my biggest problem. How can you present the essence of your motivations in a compelling manner. I feel like any essay will lack weight and perspective.

 

[libertyyne]

That's my biggest problem. How can you present the essence of your motivations in a compelling manner. I feel like any essay will lack weight and perspective.

Society doesn't have an x-ray for your soul and motivations and intentions and nor do adcoms. You have to show them through your tangible actions. You can hardly blame adcoms for using empirical results vs intentions written on a non binding contract to make decisions. People who generally have good intentions are just that, people with good intentions. Those intentions are not worth a single LizzyM point or even a 10th of a point. Those intentions need to be displayed through tangible action and then referenced to show proof.

 

[libertyyne]

Very true, but I wasn't arguing that. I was arguing that you can meet all the criteria, and still have the possibility of not getting in.

Also, with respect to your post, it sucks because you can find research easier with connections, compared to a student who came straight from the ghetto with know assistance or prior background knowledge of what they need for med school besides the grades and MCAT.

People from difficult backgrounds get some leeway in these matter all the time, URM numbers are a tangible example. I believe that the real problem is lack of guidance. People without doctors in their families or without professionals in their families have no idea what boxes need to be checked and rather then a sheer lack of availability.

 

[deleted738762]

and then referenced to show proof.

Here lies the problem. You can feed the poor and help the homeless on your own time, but if you have no reference it doesn't mean jack ****. I know this person, who is very religious, who personally looks after the orphans, homeless, elderly, by feeding them and helping them, but who is he going to reference?

 

[ciestar]

People from difficult backgrounds get some leeway in these matter all the time, URM numbers are a tangible example. I believe that the real problem is lack of guidance. People without doctors in their families or without professionals in their families have no idea what boxes need to be checked and rather then a sheer lack of availability.

Personal experience here, a difficult background might get you an interview but if you interview poorly or have something on your app like a poorly written PS, it does nothing for you. So being disadvanted won't give you an automatic spot.

 

[libertyyne]

Here lies the problem. You can feed the poor and help the homeless on your own time, but if you have no reference it doesn't mean jack ****. I know this person, who is very religious, who personally looks after the orphans, homeless, elderly, by feeding them and helping them, but who is he going to reference?

Just list yourself. List a neighbour , list someone who knows , list a homeless person. I meant reference in terms of pointing to the EC box in your application not actual person. For the store you could just list the store and write down the phone number for the store.

 

[deleted738762]

Just list yourself. List a neighbour , list someone who knows , list a homeless person. Ieant reference in terms of pointing to the EC box in your application not actual person. For the store you could just list the store and write down the phone number for the store.

You can reference anyone associated with that action? I've always thought it has to be something official, if you know what I mean?

 

[libertyyne]

Personal experience here, a difficult background might get you an interview but if you interview poorly or have something on your app like a poorly written PS, it does nothing for you. So being disadvanted won't give you an automatic spot.

Ergo my phrase "some leeway" . You dont automatically get ushered in the back door, they just cut you some slack on the numbers and maybe an ec or two if everything else is in order, things under your control like interviews and essays should obviously be good.

You can reference anyone associated with that action? I've always thought it has to be something official, if you know what I mean?

if an official person doesn't exist then an unofficial person should suffice.

 

[ciestar]

Ergo my phrase "some leeway" . You dont automatically get ushered in the back door, they just cut you some slack on the numbers and maybe an economic or two if everything else is in order, things under your control like interviews and essays should obviously be good.

Yup, yup. I had a good overall application, but struggled through interviews, which is absolutely on me and I learned that the hard way after many post-interview rejections (4). (10II, attended 7, one acceptance). At least one school felt I deserved a chance.

 

[deleted738762]

Ergo my phrase "some leeway" . You dont automatically get ushered in the back door, they just cut you some slack on the numbers and maybe an economic or two if everything else is in order, things under your control like interviews and essays should obviously be good.
if an official person doesn't exist then an unofficial person should suffice.

I see, thanks for clarification.

 

[deleted738762]

Yup, yup. I had a good overall application, but struggled through interviews, which is absolutely on me and I learned that the hard way. At least one school felt I deserved a chance.

Yup, yup.

 

[deleted738762]

Yup, yup. I had a good overall application, but struggled through interviews, which is absolutely on me and I learned that the hard way after many post-interview rejections (4). (10II, attended 7, one acceptance). At least one school felt I deserved a chance.

How do you mean you when you say struggle through interview. Not answering questions? Nervous? Stammering? If it's personal then you don't need to answer, just asking out of curiosity.

 

[Endoxifen]

Society doesn't have an x-ray for your soul and motivations and intentions and nor do adcoms. You have to show them through your tangible actions. You can hardly blame adcoms for using empirical results vs intentions written on a non binding contract to make decisions. People who generally have good intentions are just that, people with good intentions. Those intentions are not worth a single LizzyM point or even a 10th of a point. Those intentions need to be displayed through tangible action and then referenced to show proof.

You're absolutely right. That's why I'm so baffled as to how to approach personal statements. I feel like I'm verging onto a philosophical argument, but I lack the perspective to see if what I find compelling is only pedestrian to the adcoms.

To me, the most important thing about my application is that I was willing to be unorthodox and innovative. I took OChem in HS and I used that to make my own honors thesis project at my university's estranged medical school, which apparently, only one other person has ever done. I'm proud that I put it together myself, but I know for a fact that it has been done a thousand times and is nothing special.

 

[Geo16]

I've had conversations with a couple deans of admissions and they both told me they want to be invested in your narrative. GPA and MCAT open the door, but they are looking for something ineffable in their applicants which will make them exceptional.

To answer your question though, I think it depends on your reference frame. Perfect by the numbers and truly passionate might not grab them.

Narrative?
Like, if you are interested in the future as Pediatrics specialist and volunteer at a local elementary school; is that a good narrative?
You know, if I'm interested in becoming a doctor that goes around the world and heal children to get better (= enrich the future). This pumps me up!!!

 

[ciestar]

However, being marked disadvantaged didn't really make up for any real deficits in my application. My numbers were good, quality ECs, etc. But, if my PS sucked then maybe we have a better reason for the 10II + disadvantaged.

 

[libertyyne]

However, being marked disadvantaged didn't really make up for any real deficits in my application. My numbers were good, quality ECs, etc. But, if my PS sucked then maybe we have a better reason for the 10II + disadvantaged.

No, if you got an II that means they read your ps. The interview is really the only thing holding you back at that point imo.

 

[ciestar]

How do you mean you when you say struggle through interview. Not answering questions? Nervous? Stammering? If it's personal then you don't need to answer, just asking out of curiosity.

Considering I only got information about why I got rejected from one school may not hold much merit, but I was told I didn't fully answer a question or finish my own answer and would move onto something else during the same question. Nerves always play a role, but who knows if that was really the reason. Another school never said a word about my interview, other than that they rejected me in part because of my SO and having a job in elsewhere, so they didn't think I'd be fully committed to their program. Also said my PS wasn't great.

 

[libertyyne]

You're absolutely right. That's why I'm so baffled as to how to approach personal statements. I feel like I'm verging onto a philosophical argument, but I lack the perspective to see if what I find compelling is only pedestrian to the adcoms.

To me, the most important thing about my application is that I was willing to be unorthodox and innovative. I took OChem in HS and I used that to make my own honors thesis project at my university's estranged medical school, which apparently, only one other person has ever done. I'm proud that I put it together myself, but I know for a fact that it has been done a thousand times and is nothing special.

I mean if that is important to you , highlight it. I personally am not blown away by an honors thesis. But perhaps yours has merit to blow people away.

 

[deleted738762]

Considering I only got information about why I got rejected from one school may not hold much merit, but I was told I didn't fully answer a question or finish my own answer and would move onto something else during the same question. Nerves always play a role, but who knows if that was really the reason. Another school never said a word about my interview, other than that they rejected me in part because of my SO and having a job in elsewhere, so they didn't think I'd be fully committed to their program. Also said my PS wasn't great.

I see, what does SO and having a job in elsewhere mean?

 

[libertyyne]

Considering I only got information about why I got rejected from one school may not hold much merit, but I was told I didn't fully answer a question or finish my own answer and would move onto something else during the same question. Nerves always play a role, but who knows if that was really the reason. Another school never said a word about my interview, other than that they rejected me in part because of my SO and having a job in elsewhere, so they didn't think I'd be fully committed to their program. Also said my PS wasn't great.

The last one was a bs answer in my opinion. They didn't like your interview.

 

[ciestar]

I see, what does SO and having a job in elsewhere mean?

Ugh, bad typo, sorry! But basically they didn't think I'd be willing to relocate.

 

[libertyyne]

Ugh, bad typo, sorry! But basically they didn't think I'd be willing to relocate.

Did you bring your SO up? And then did you bring their job up?

 

[Endoxifen]

I mean if that is important to you , highlight it. I personally am not blown away by an honors thesis. But perhaps yours has merit to blow people away.

It's not really the content of the thesis but what it took to get there. My school had no mechanism for students to do research at the medical school. I had to lobby the honors college and college of science for months, coordinate the dialog between schools, switch majors (because my old major wouldn't allow it), move to the other campus, and write all of the SRCs, IRBs, and papers by myself. I don't know if navigating bureaucracy can be called a compelling narrative 🙂

 

[ciestar]

The last one was a bs answer in my opinion. They didn't like your interview.

It came from a dean of admissions so I took it more to heart. (Also was told I had no chance at an acceptance as my application/interview skills stand now). I was absolutely defeated and by that point I had 3 rejections and a WL, I fully believed it.

 

[libertyyne]

It's not really the content of the thesis but what it took to get there. My school had no mechanism for students to do research at the medical school. I had to lobby the honors college and college of science for months, coordinate the dialog between schools, switch majors (because my old major wouldn't allow it), move to the other campus, and write all of the SRCs, IRBs, and papers by myself. I don't know if navigating bureaucracy can be called a compelling narrative 🙂

Welcome to adulthood as a professional.

 

[ciestar]

Did you bring your SO up? And then did you bring their job up?

This was more than a year ago, so I honestly don't remember. It may have been a support system question? I had my engagement ring on? Idk. I really don't remember but that could have all been on me too.

I stopped wearing my rings to interviews or even mentioning my SO after that.

 

[libertyyne]

It came from a dean of admissions so I took it more to heart. (Also was told I had no chance at an acceptance as my application/interview skills stand now). I was absolutely defeated and by that point I had 3 rejections and a WL, I fully believed it.

Wow. At least you proved that guy wrong. Why did they even interview you? Also you should really practice interviewing since residency will require the same hoops.

 

[deleted738762]

It came from a dean of admissions so I took it more to heart. (Also was told I had no chance at an acceptance as my application/interview skills stand now). I was absolutely defeated and by that point I had 3 rejections and a WL, I fully believed it.

The dean told you to that and it struck you. Prime example of appeal to authority fallacy. However, that's sad to hear, but at least you got in now!

 

[Endoxifen]

Welcome to adulthood as a professional.

Apparently! Whatever you have to do to get what you want is a worthy cost to me.

 

[libertyyne]

This was more than a year ago, so I honestly don't remember. It may have been a support system question? I had my engagement ring on? Idk. I really don't remember but that could have all been on me too.

I stopped wearing my rings to interviews or even mentioning my SO after that.

I mentioned my so and wore my ring to interviews and was fine . But my so has a medically related job that is easy to move around. But I interview OK in general.