PhD/PsyD What should I focus on when thinking about hours needed for internship?

[GirlNeuro13]

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The research lab that I will be working in during my doctorate training will offer both fMRI scanning as well as NP testing. I would love to help with the data collection of both, but have been told by others in the program to focus more on NP testing as scanning doesn't count towards any of your hours.

Is this true? It seems like scanning could count as something? Perhaps F2F hours? (Although they are only in front of me for about 45 min of our whole 3 hour scan session)

Also-- is NP testing done in a research setting counted differently than NP testing done in a clinical setting or are they counted the same?

Lastly-- my mentor created a memory test/assessment for one of her current studies that takes about an hour and a half to administer. Would this test count towards assessment hours even though it is not yet a standardized test?

Thanks!

 

[erg923]

"Hours" are meant to be in the context of a clinical service, rather than a research project. So, unless your lab also is an approved practicum training site by your program, nothing you do there can go on your APPI application towards hours.

 

[Ollie123]

The research lab that I will be working in during my doctorate training will offer both fMRI scanning as well as NP testing. I would love to help with the data collection of both, but have been told by others in the program to focus more on NP testing as scanning doesn't count towards any of your hours.

Is this true? It seems like scanning could count as something? Perhaps F2F hours? (Although they are only in front of me for about 45 min of our whole 3 hour scan session)

Also-- is NP testing done in a research setting counted differently than NP testing done in a clinical setting or are they counted the same?

Lastly-- my mentor created a memory test/assessment for one of her current studies that takes about an hour and a half to administer. Would this test count towards assessment hours even though it is not yet a standardized test?

Thanks!

Research testing is normally different but there are certain contexts in which it can be counted - the program is best poised to address the specifics. I've heard differently on here, but the application materials make it abundantly clear that research THERAPY (i.e. as a study therapist on a clinical trial) counts so I included that in my hours (as did everyone I know), but testing is a bit different.

That said, if you want to learn fMRI, do it. Especially if you are interested in an academic path. One of the biggest problems with the internship crisis is that it leads to stuff like this - really, we should only be doing the things that might help us land an internship? The purpose of graduate school is to prepare you for a career, not to enable you to land an internship. I did TONS of things that I'm sure had zero impact on my landing an internship (e.g. extra stats classes), but it was stuff I wanted to learn for my future career or just because I enjoyed it and was genuinely interested. Certainly you should plan for internship and make sure you are getting sufficient experience in all relevant areas to be successful, but I think it is a big mistake to structure your entire graduate training around getting an internship.

 

[docma]

I think it is a big mistake to structure your entire graduate training around getting an internship.

I agree. You want to be sorting out YOUR true interests so shouldn't miss learning about fMRI if it fascinates you. How you talk about what you are interested in interviews can matter more than a hours in a given column. That said, to get to an interview you do want to show some basic proficiency with some standardized tests and for some sites a high number of tests in some categories. The AAPI asks for settings where you have given the tests in the counting grid, so your research administrations will count, but certain sites may want to see you have done some clinical applications. So keep all that in mind AND at this point in your progress, do what you can write about, think about with the most passion and don't let the future ordeal ruin the present experience."

 

[AcronymAllergy]

To answer one specific question--NP assessments administered solely for research projects don't count as clinical assessment hours, no. There is, however, a separate section that lets you list the number of different assessment instruments administered in a research setting.

As for your advisor's memory test, if it's not normed/standardized, then it's going to be tough to administer and interpret it clinically; it would seem that any administration would be in a research context so that it can eventually be used clinically. Depends on the specific situation, though.

 

[GirlNeuro13]

Great! Thanks for the advice guys! I am glad to hear that I should actually focus on the things that I am passionate about. I already have a decent amount of experience with imaging data collection, but even so, that is the part that is super fun for me, so I'm glad I got some different feedback. I'm sure in grad school my focus will tend to be aimed more at the post processing and data analysis, but I think to be an expert in something, you should be competent in the whole process, not just one step! One of the reasons I chose my mentor is because they currently do EVERYTHING on site. I interviewed with many other mentors who were out-sourcing their imaging collection (some even the processing too). I'm sure this is something that comes along with experience and tenure, but I figured it would be a better learning experience to work under someone who was doing it all themselves.

I am pretty sure my program will already provided me with enough hours to be eligible for a great internship, so I will focus on becoming a well-rounded researcher and clinician instead of worrying about hours. With that said, do NP internship sites require more assessment hours than most other sites?

 

[WisNeuro]

I am pretty sure my program will already provided me with enough hours to be eligible for a great internship, so I will focus on becoming a well-rounded researcher and clinician instead of worrying about hours. With that said, do NP internship sites require more assessment hours than most other sites?

Not necessarily. Most applicants usually just have more than usual because of their concentration. They will want to see good requisite background training rather than a buttload of hours. We have a ton of people that apply with a gazillion hours, but they are all at one terrible prac site. Just work on being well-rounded. Get your NP foundation stuff in. Most of your heavy clinical work and honing your case conceptualization really comes in on the postdoc level imo.

 

[GirlNeuro13]

Not necessarily. Most applicants usually just have more than usual because of their concentration. They will want to see good requisite background training rather than a buttload of hours. We have a ton of people that apply with a gazillion hours, but they are all at one terrible prac site. Just work on being well-rounded. Get your NP foundation stuff in. Most of your heavy clinical work and honing your case conceptualization really comes in on the postdoc level imo.

Great! Thanks so much! I just kept hearing "hours hours hours" from current students. I'll just focus on becoming well trained and I think the hours will come naturally with that.

 

[GirlNeuro13]

Another question-- my program is technically set up to be a 4 + internship but I have heard that most in the neuropsych track take 5 +1. Do internship sites have a preference? Would they prefer someone who has 5 years under their belt, or do they not care either way? I would obviously rather get done in 4 because I'm already older than most students, but then again, another year isn't much in the grand scheme of things, especially if it sets you up at a better internship site/post doc/etc. I also wouldn't want to sacrifice training at the expense of getting done in 4.

 

[WisNeuro]

Another question-- my program is technically set up to be a 4 + internship but I have heard that most in the neuropsych track take 5 +1. Do internship sites have a preference? Would they prefer someone who has 5 years under their belt, or do they not care either way? I would obviously rather get done in 4 because I'm already older than most students, but then again, another year isn't much in the grand scheme of things, especially if it sets you up at a better internship site/post doc/etc. I also wouldn't want to sacrifice training at the expense of getting done in 4.

Depends. We've accepted both. Some people are very efficient with their 4 years, some aren't. It's not necessarily the frank number of years that matters, more of what you do with it. That being said, it's obviously easier to get things done with that extra year.

Also, as you alluded to, depends on where you are. I personally, would not have wanted to go the 4 year route. I could have done it, but would have been so much more insanely busy than I was. I truly enjoyed grad school and the people (faculty and fellow students) I was with, so it was nice to have some time to enjoy life a little bit here and there. I don't think I would have been able to do that if I had condensed things into one less year.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Another question-- my program is technically set up to be a 4 + internship but I have heard that most in the neuropsych track take 5 +1. Do internship sites have a preference? Would they prefer someone who has 5 years under their belt, or do they not care either way? I would obviously rather get done in 4 because I'm already older than most students, but then again, another year isn't much in the grand scheme of things, especially if it sets you up at a better internship site/post doc/etc. I also wouldn't want to sacrifice training at the expense of getting done in 4.

Sites aren't going to really care about the number of years in and of itself (unless it's <4, in which case that might not meet some sites' requirements). They'll be more interested in seeing what you've done in those 4 or 5 years. Plenty of people match when applying during their 4th year, it just means you have to be that much more efficient with your time, as you'll be competing with some folks who've had another year or two to boost their CVs.

Edit: And it looks like WisNeuro beat me to the punch. I agree with everything he's said in that for me personally, I preferred to essentially improve my quality of life by not having to intensely pressure myself to get through and be competitive in 4 years. But that's just me.

 

[GirlNeuro13]

Depends. We've accepted both. Some people are very efficient with their 4 years, some aren't. It's not necessarily the frank number of years that matters, more of what you do with it. That being said, it's obviously easier to get things done with that extra year.

Also, as you alluded to, depends on where you are. I personally, would not have wanted to go the 4 year route. I could have done it, but would have been so much more insanely busy than I was. I truly enjoyed grad school and the people (faculty and fellow students) I was with, so it was nice to have some time to enjoy life a little bit here and there. I don't think I would have been able to do that if I had condensed things into one less year.

That's a really great point. I intend to enjoy myself as well, and I would hate to create even more pressure when it isn't necessary. I'll probably not even think about this until I'm a couple years in, and then I cam assess whether it would sacrifice quality of life!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I went 5+1 and felt like that extra year helped me round out my training, so by the time I got to internship I was able to polish and tweak...so I could be competitive for fellowship. Some can do just as well with 4+1, but it's hard to be that efficient/productive.

 

[GirlNeuro13]

I went 5+1 and felt like that extra year helped me round out my training, so by the time I got to internship I was able to polish and tweak...so I could be competitive for fellowship. Some can do just as well with 4+1, but it's hard to be that efficient/productive.

Sounds similar to when I was hoping to apply to grad school right out of college, and then decided to wait a year. That extra year was HUGE. I am so glad I waited. I'm sensing a pattern.

 

[cara susanna]

Research testing is normally different but there are certain contexts in which it can be counted - the program is best poised to address the specifics. I've heard differently on here, but the application materials make it abundantly clear that research THERAPY (i.e. as a study therapist on a clinical trial) counts so I included that in my hours (as did everyone I know), but testing is a bit different.

I'd look into that, actually. We had a research project where people administered therapy, and our DCT actually called APPIC to see if the hours counted. APPIC told us that they didn't. Sadly, after that, interest in the project died down and we lost it to another department in the university.

 

[Ollie123]

See, this board is the only place I've ever heard of anything like that and without posting here I'd have never known there was anyone who didn't count it. The APPIC materials are quite clear (in my view) that therapy hours count - I believe going so far as to list "Study therapist" in their own materials under things that count for intervention hours. I don't know the details of that situation, but why your DCT would even think to check is somewhat beyond me. This process is painful enough without APPIC having secret rules that violate their own written materials. If they don't want it to count, they should write it down somewhere - my program goes with what the rules say. I get why a cognitive assessment administered in a rote fashion with no room for test selection, administered to a "control" undergrad student with no presenting concerns and who will not receive feedback on the test wouldn't count. I can't come up with any logical explanation serving as therapist on a clinical trial wouldn't count (I'd argue its probably one of the best forms of clinical training one could receive in graduate school) and I'm happy my DCT had absolutely no issue with approving the hours. Its hard enough to fit everything in without APPIC drawing these weird blurry lines that double the amount of necessary work. Do my publications only count as research if I didn't meet any of the participants face to face?

 

[WisNeuro]

See, this board is the only place I've ever heard of anything like that and without posting here I'd have never known there was anyone who didn't count it. The APPIC materials are quite clear (in my view) that therapy hours count - I believe going so far as to list "Study therapist" in their own materials under things that count for intervention hours. I don't know the details of that situation, but why your DCT would even think to check is somewhat beyond me. This process is painful enough without APPIC having secret rules that violate their own written materials. If they don't want it to count, they should write it down somewhere - my program goes with what the rules say. I get why a cognitive assessment administered in a rote fashion with no room for test selection, administered to a "control" undergrad student with no presenting concerns and who will not receive feedback on the test wouldn't count. I can't come up with any logical explanation serving as therapist on a clinical trial wouldn't count (I'd argue its probably one of the best forms of clinical training one could receive in graduate school) and I'm happy my DCT had absolutely no issue with approving the hours. Its hard enough to fit everything in without APPIC drawing these weird blurry lines that double the amount of necessary work. Do my publications only count as research if I didn't meet any of the participants face to face?

I thought they differentiated between hours gained on supervised practicum and those gained while on research applications? It's been a few years, I'm not sure. Perhaps the supervision aspect is key?

 

[cara susanna]

I don't know the details of that situation, but why your DCT would even think to check is somewhat beyond me.

Yeah, our DCT is kind of a stickler with hours. I think it's sad that we lost a great research project because of it, too.