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Hello!
My school (US allopathic) is a bit unique in that our first rotation of 3rd year is a 6 month long family medicine rotation in a community practice. After that, we do 4 week rotations of Surgery, IM, Peds, Psych, OB, one elective.. EM in 4th year. This is something new they are doing, so I have no upper class to ask about this.
For evaluation in 3rd year during our 6 month family medicine rotation, at week 12 we take the NBME Comprehensive Clinical Science Examination (I dont know what this is). Then at week 24 we take the NBME Subject Exam in Family Medicine.
If you had 6 months to prepare for these two things and learn family medicine (and knew that following family medicine you had 4 weeks of Surgery, then only 4 weeks of Internal Medicine) How would you tackle it?
I appreciate all views!
Good god. I have nothing useful to add here, except to offer my condolences...Hello!
My school (US allopathic) is a bit unique in that our first rotation of 3rd year is a 6 month long family medicine rotation in a community practice. After that, we do 4 week rotations of Surgery, IM, Peds, Psych, OB, one elective.. EM in 4th year. This is something new they are doing, so I have no upper class to ask about this.
For evaluation in 3rd year during our 6 month family medicine rotation, at week 12 we take the NBME Comprehensive Clinical Science Examination (I dont know what this is). Then at week 24 we take the NBME Subject Exam in Family Medicine.
If you had 6 months to prepare for these two things and learn family medicine (and knew that following family medicine you had 4 weeks of Surgery, then only 4 weeks of Internal Medicine) How would you tackle it?
I appreciate all views!
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But seriously that seems terrible. I guess they REALLY want to address that PCP "shortage"
I didn't mean to imply there was nothing to be gained. It just seems like an unusual approach, and one I wouldn't be very excited about.Theoretically, after 6 months of a well designed FM experience, a student should emerge with the following skills/knowledge
- splinting/other MSK
- suturing and removing sutures
- longitudinal following of an OB patient.
- Should know a lot about outpatient OB/GYN
- basic Peds
- an understanding of most diseases seen by IM (albeit from a chronic outpatient management not an acute worsening).
- some neuro
- see patients before they get an operation and after
- a lot of cardiology/EKG reading etc
- in addition to the normal primary care stuff.
This assumes a well designed clerkship and motivated student. If it's the usual work 3-4 days per week, all weekends off, and you just shadow a family doctor and do no real patient care, it'll be a total waste.
Yes we are all in a community with a corresponding hospital, so we are expected to follow patients to hospital for care if they are being seen for surgery, and also have the opportunity to go into the ED for shifts within the community. I agree that it will take a decent amount of self-motivation from the students part because you're correct the office is only open 8-5 no weekends. We are also expected to attend rounds at the community hospital and follow any patients care there. Thanks for your response!Theoretically, after 6 months of a well designed FM experience, a student should emerge with the following skills/knowledge
- splinting/other MSK
- suturing and removing sutures
- longitudinal following of an OB patient.
- Should know a lot about outpatient OB/GYN
- basic Peds
- an understanding of most diseases seen by IM (albeit from a chronic outpatient management not an acute worsening).
- some neuro
- see patients before they get an operation and after
- a lot of cardiology/EKG reading etc
- in addition to the normal primary care stuff.
This assumes a well designed clerkship and motivated student. If it's the usual work 3-4 days per week, all weekends off, and you just shadow a family doctor and do no real patient care, it'll be a total waste.
By that logic though, why not 10 months of FM and 2 months of surgery? Wouldn't that cover everything?Theoretically, after 6 months of a well designed FM experience, a student should emerge with the following skills/knowledge
- splinting/other MSK
- suturing and removing sutures
- longitudinal following of an OB patient.
- Should know a lot about outpatient OB/GYN
- basic Peds
- an understanding of most diseases seen by IM (albeit from a chronic outpatient management not an acute worsening).
- some neuro
- see patients before they get an operation and after
- a lot of cardiology/EKG reading etc
- in addition to the normal primary care stuff.
This assumes a well designed clerkship and motivated student. If it's the usual work 3-4 days per week, all weekends off, and you just shadow a family doctor and do no real patient care, it'll be a total waste.
By that logic though, why not 10 months of FM and 2 months of surgery? Wouldn't that cover everything?
Though at the time I felt like 3 months of surgery, 6 weeks of OB/GYN, 6 weeks peds, etc were all too long, they were invaluable for experiencing multiple aspects of those fields: inpatient, outpatient, subspecialty electives. Plus, many of those weeks involved 5-6 days a week of 12 hour days... very different than my family med experience of 9-5 (with a whole lunch hour!) for 4.5 days a week. I had a fantastic family medicine site (a busy, well-regarded FM residency program that did full OB), and I would feel seriously shortchanged if I was only doing that for half of my 3rd year.
Also: logistics. Unless this is a small school, how on earth will they find enough preceptors for an entire half of the class to be in quality sites at the same time?
Just curious - how long are your other clerkships? If FM of all things is taking 6 months, that must mean your other rotations are quite short.
Hello!
My school (US allopathic) is a bit unique in that our first rotation of 3rd year is a 6 month long family medicine rotation in a community practice. After that, we do 4 week rotations of Surgery, IM, Peds, Psych, OB, one elective.. EM in 4th year. This is something new they are doing, so I have no upper class to ask about this.
The approach of following patients that are hospitalized is interesting and could actually result in some good learning outside of what most might have as a traditional FM clerkship.
Just curious - how long are your other clerkships? If FM of all things is taking 6 months, that must mean your other rotations are quite short.
At first I was thinking this was the absolute craziest schedule I've ever heard of, but then I read the part about following these same patients if they are admitted or get surgery. Now my head is kind of blown by the concept, but not sure if its for good or worse. Seems like this could be a complete logistical nightmare and only could be pulled off if the admitting hospital didn't have a bunch of different specialty services and instead was mostly run by IM/FM hospitalists who consulted all the different specialties (Imagine trying to make it to 3 different specialties rounds at the right time if it were a typical academic hospital and you had pts spread on different services).
If the logistics worked out I think this could be incredibly educational, but I think it would be better to do the short specialty rotations first. Would be pretty cool to know the patients your rounding on.
Its untested, that is for-sure. They are small community hospitals. One of the sites where students will be is a 25 bed hospital, total. Not all are that small, but that one is the smallest. So the student will be at a practice in the community then be able to go to the hospital to see patients/follow up/ spend time on the EM service if they have an ED.
Thanks for all the feedback so far! Does anyone have any thoughts about how to go about studying to best use these 6 months? For example, most people have a much longer IM rotation, should I try to fit in some IM into my family medicine studying? etc.
Its untested, that is for-sure. They are small community hospitals. One of the sites where students will be is a 25 bed hospital, total. Not all are that small, but that one is the smallest. So the student will be at a practice in the community then be able to go to the hospital to see patients/follow up/ spend time on the EM service if they have an ED.
Its untested, that is for-sure. They are small community hospitals. One of the sites where students will be is a 25 bed hospital, total. Not all are that small, but that one is the smallest. So the student will be at a practice in the community then be able to go to the hospital to see patients/follow up/ spend time on the EM service if they have an ED.
Thanks for all the feedback so far! Does anyone have any thoughts about how to go about studying to best use these 6 months? For example, most people have a much longer IM rotation, should I try to fit in some IM into my family medicine studying? etc.
I... sort of agree? But then again, diverse pathology wasn't really what showed up on the shelfs (shelves?) and Step 2, and what there was I learned from review Qs and books, not from actual patients.I think this is a bit terrifying simply because of the...lack of diversity of pathology that likely is in a 25 bed hospital, even over 6 months. All the cool stuff probably gets shipped out. Then again, I just graduated from a med school which is an uber referral hospital, so I'm biased as heck.
This seems like a good way for all your students to get destroyed on the shelfs for lack of study time.
Not going to sugar coat it, this has been a huge source of discussion among classmates. Our school is using shelfs for our grades obviously so its important! I guess something I don't know... say the first crop of students that got 4 weeks to study for IM shelves get slammed with bad grades, this is our schools problem right? Its not like residency programs get individual shelf exam scores, they just get the grade our school gave us on the entire rotation?
Hello!
My school (US allopathic) is a bit unique in that our first rotation of 3rd year is a 6 month long family medicine rotation in a community practice. After that, we do 4 week rotations of Surgery, IM, Peds, Psych, OB...
Does that meet state license requirements?
Does that meet state license requirements?
I think this is a bit terrifying simply because of the...lack of diversity of pathology that likely is in a 25 bed hospital, even over 6 months. All the cool stuff probably gets shipped out. Then again, I just graduated from a med school which is an uber referral hospital, so I'm biased as heck.
Sorry, I guess we got side-tracked by the curriculum and didn't actually try to answer your question. It's tricky, as I'm sure you've looked at the forums and seen that there's no real consensus about studying for the FM shelf because they can test you on just about anything. Don't worry about that test at the half-way point, it's like a Step 1 NBME self-assessment, which I would really hope they wouldn't count toward a grade.
If it was me, I would get through Case Files Family Medicine early in the rotation, and then read about any specific conditions/patients you see in Step Up to Medicine (or Epocrates, honestly... it's essentially the free version of UpToDate). In the last month or two of the rotation, work your way through the UWorld Step 2 questions, just the Internal Medicine ones. There are tons of them, and it'll cover most of your shelf exam; the peds and OB questions that you get will either be hammered into you a million times already (+/- be in Case Files), or they'll be so random you never could have studied for them.
As for the rest of your rotations being only a month? Good news: there are far fewer UWorld questions in the rest of the disciplines than there are for IM, so you can very comfortably get through them in the last week or so of your rotations (in addition to whatever review-book resources people are recommending these days).
Is the goal of your medical school to make students to do so badly on their shelfs in Surgery, IM, Peds, Psych, OB that students have no choice, but to go for primary care through Family Medicine? If so, it's a very ingenious way to box students in.Hello!
My school (US allopathic) is a bit unique in that our first rotation of 3rd year is a 6 month long family medicine rotation in a community practice. After that, we do 4 week rotations of Surgery, IM, Peds, Psych, OB, one elective.. EM in 4th year. This is something new they are doing, so I have no upper class to ask about this.
For evaluation in 3rd year during our 6 month family medicine rotation, at week 12 we take the NBME Comprehensive Clinical Science Examination (I dont know what this is). Then at week 24 we take the NBME Subject Exam in Family Medicine.
If you had 6 months to prepare for these two things and learn family medicine (and knew that following family medicine you had 4 weeks of Surgery, then only 4 weeks of Internal Medicine) How would you tackle it?
I appreciate all views!
Hello!
My school (US allopathic) is a bit unique in that our first rotation of 3rd year is a 6 month long family medicine rotation in a community practice. After that, we do 4 week rotations of Surgery, IM, Peds, Psych, OB, one elective.. EM in 4th year. This is something new they are doing, so I have no upper class to ask about this.
For evaluation in 3rd year during our 6 month family medicine rotation, at week 12 we take the NBME Comprehensive Clinical Science Examination (I dont know what this is). Then at week 24 we take the NBME Subject Exam in Family Medicine.
If you had 6 months to prepare for these two things and learn family medicine (and knew that following family medicine you had 4 weeks of Surgery, then only 4 weeks of Internal Medicine) How would you tackle it?
I appreciate all views!
Another brilliant idea by some ***** administration who is either 1) not a physician, or 2) so far removed from medical school they might as well be making these decisions in a underground base on Mars.
Med school curriculum is like a shell game at this point. Keep changing things around pointlessly (T/PBL, capstone projects, crap like this) but ignore the fact that medical education is being gutted because the only thing that matters is making the insurance companies happy. That means minimal role for the med student in terms of notes, procedures, ownership, responsibility, and learning because anything the med student does slows down patient turnover and is useless for billing.
You and your classmates should revolt, OP. This is a dumb ****ing idea, and they're gambling with your professional education so they can have a presentation at some crappy AAMC conference.
As someone who went to a school with no Family Medicine department/clerkship at all, this sounds crazy.
Can I transfer there?
As someone who went to a school with no Family Medicine department/clerkship at all, this sounds crazy.
@KnuxNole I'd be willing to bet that even though PGY1 was when you felt like you were truly functioning in clinical medicine, you were building on a foundation started in 3rd year. There is a vast difference between a June MS2 and a June MS3 when it comes to thinking like a physician.
I find the first line interesting considering I was allowed to a pelvic and rectal exam as a first year on my family medicine clinical experience they make us do.****ing true they should just scrap third year imo. Can't even get people to let me do a lines or ivs cause they're so scared of legal repercussions. When am I supposed to learn? When I'm a busy as hell intern? No one looks at my notes cause they're too busy writing their own, full of crap that doesn't matter for patient care but matters for billing. I spend so much time sitting or standing around, doing basically jack, trying not to say anything too stupid or piss off the wrong person. The only value is exposure to patients and the occasional drops of knowledge from my team. Have to dig through charts, wiki, medscape and uptodate by myself to learn most of the time.
Good luck with that. Ten medical schools don't have family medicine departments: Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford, WashU, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, Vanderbilt, NYU, GWU. (http://www.amednews.com/article/20121217/profession/121219945/1/)
At least some of them. Not interested in doing this research.But which ones also don't have FM clerkship?
I know UCSD does not have a clerkship, at least, not in a traditional sense. They go to a FM clinic once a week during third year for four hours.But which ones also don't have FM clerkship?
But which ones also don't have FM clerkship?
I'm open about the fact that I went to Vanderbilt. I looked real dumb as a resident, when I asked my students (at a similar private school) "You guys have a Family clerkship??!!!"
I honestly don't think I've rolled my eyes at so many quotes in one article. Do these people actually say these things in front of medical students?Good luck with that. Ten medical schools don't have family medicine departments: Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford, WashU, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, Vanderbilt, NYU, GWU. (http://www.amednews.com/article/20121217/profession/121219945/1/)
Remember what you just said when we are all asked to show our value vs. the NP way of doing things, who can readily say they don't need to waste their time in residency, bc NP school teaches them to function in clinical medicine.Honestly, intern year when was I really started to learn how to function in clinical medicine...medical school barely did anything to prepare. Which, makes sense in a way...
Remember what you just said when we are all asked to show our value vs. the NP way of doing things, who can readily say they don't need to waste their time in residency, bc NP school teaches them to function in clinical medicine.