What would happen...

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Faebinder

Slow Wave Smurf
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I am wondering if this is even possible....

What would happen if all primary care physicians got together and agreed that from now on they wont take any kind of insurance (not even medicaid) and that they will ask patients to pay the bill after they are seen by the doctor in the clinic and give them the bill... and they can file it with their insurance on their own?

Is it even possible to make all physicians agree on this?
 
It has been my experience that getting a group of physicians to agree on anything is daunting task.

ntubebate, who commends you on your innovative thinking.😀
 
what would happen is that you'd screw over poor people and people with disabled/chronically ill kids. in fact, a lot of them probably would stop going to the doctor if this happened. But hey, if it makes doctors' lives easier, sounds just fabulous to me.
 
What would be the advantage of removing patients' freedom to select a doctor who files their insurance, or one who takes cash? "One size fits all" is rarely an ideal situation.
 
what would happen is that you'd screw over poor people and people with disabled/chronically ill kids. in fact, a lot of them probably would stop going to the doctor if this happened. But hey, if it makes doctors' lives easier, sounds just fabulous to me.

They could go to the ER... which is what they usually do now a days... good luck finding a pediatrician that takes medicaid.... many primary docs stopped taking medicaid and medicare.

Sides.. no one is saying they have to pay for it... they will get the bills but they will need to do the negotiating with the insurance company for the payment... They will know _exactly_ how good their premiers are. Why should the doc be the one negotiating for the payment?

As for union, how is that unionizing, all you are doing is agreeing not to take insurance as a form of a payment... you are not agreeing on how much you charge for a service.
 
They could go to the ER... which is what they usually do now a days... good luck finding a pediatrician that takes medicaid.... many primary docs stopped taking medicaid and medicare.

Sides.. no one is saying they have to pay for it... they will get the bills but they will need to do the negotiating with the insurance company for the payment... They will know _exactly_ how good their premiers are. Why should the doc be the one negotiating for the payment?

As for union, how is that unionizing, all you are doing is agreeing not to take insurance as a form of a payment... you are not agreeing on how much you charge for a service.


my son is on medicaid and all his doctors take it. given that disabled children qualify for it, it's pretty horrendous that doctors wouldn't accept it. if you're not interested in helping sick kids, who are you interested in helping?

And as for this, oh well we're just having them do the negotiating bit. do you even realize how much red tape parents of disabled/sick children go through already? you honestly want to make things harder on them like that?

maybe you could open a cash clinic inside Rite-Aid like the NP's 👍
 
my son is on medicaid and all his doctors take it. given that disabled children qualify for it, it's pretty horrendous that doctors wouldn't accept it. if you're not interested in helping sick kids, who are you interested in helping?

And as for this, oh well we're just having them do the negotiating bit. do you even realize how much red tape parents of disabled/sick children go through already? you honestly want to make things harder on them like that?

maybe you could open a cash clinic inside Rite-Aid like the NP's 👍

We call those urgent care centers... and they dont usually go inside Rite-Aid. 🙄

Thank you for telling us an example of why medicaid should exist... but when every pregnant lady that walks into a docs office automatically goes on medicaid if uninsured.... we got a problem there... whether you see it or not. Medicaid does not pay for the secertary's time, the doctor's time, the equipment, the office rent and malpractice (which medicaid patients, despite accepting charity from the tax payers and paying less than 20 dollars and sometimes nothing, want to be able to sue for huge numbers incase of a malpractice).

Draw the line somewhere and understand that not all doctors can afford to do charity at ALL TIME. Especially the young ones still trying to recover from loans and establish themselves.
 
🙂 Thank you for answering to my question.
I like to ask you--many residents have told me that I should resign maybe one or two months before the end of my intership year, and that way I will have a much more realistic chance of getting me a spot somewhere else--
That would mean as a PGY 1 of course--which I wouldn't mind doing
Yours,
Bear
 
Medicaid pays only 20 bucks on average?

No. Medicaid reimbursement varies by state, as well as the type of office visit/procedure. Fees for 2004-2005 are listed here: http://www.aap.org/research/medreimPDF0405/45_states_and_DC.pdf

It's low compared to most other payors, though. A 99213 (a typical code in outpatient peds) only reimbursed $36.33 in Virginia. That's probably pretty close to the overhead required just to see the patient. A 99391 (well-child check <1 y/o) reimbursed $53.59.
 
This is a very interesting discussion. It just goes to show you how regional medicine is. In my state, Medicare is the highest payer, whereas Medicaid pays approximately one half of what Medicare does. Therefore, you would have to see TWO Medicaid patients to equal the reimbursement of one Medicare patient. Thats one reason why a lot of physicians do not take Medicaid.

Another factor to consider is Medicaid patients tend to be often very difficult to deal with the tend to be the most demanding, the most needy and suck up a LOT of your time. And often they will be the first to want to sue you if something goes wrong. I don't take Medicaid in my practice.

In my state, most private HMOs and PPOs pay a percentage of Medicare. Blue Cross and Aetna pay about 80% of Medicare. Humana and United pays 75% of Medicare. The one saving grace about these particular companies is
that they send you patients and volume.

If you want, you could have a completely 100% Medicare practice as that would make the most financial sense as Medicare is the highest payer in my state. However, as a family physician , who is trained to see all ages and who desires to see a variety of patients, seeing the 65 and over crowd exclusively for the sake of maximizing my dollar would completely BORE THE HELL OUT OF ME. I have to enjoy what I do do. In terms of my tastes and preferences, I HAVE to have variety of population. Seeing only 65+ y/o "HONDA's" (hypertensive-obese-noncompliant-diabetics) all day/every day would drive me nuts. I don't mind seeing the 20+ y/o with acute bronchitis who needs a Z-pack. I get the SAME reimbursement for that visit as I would for a "HONDA". I see both HMO patients and Medicare patients. I even have cash paying patients. I pretty much charge them what Medicare would charge. Thus my seeing a cash paying patient is equivalent to seeing a Medicare patient.

In terms of getting physicians in an area to all agree on one billing/pricing scheme, that is a theoretical and conceptual IMPOSSIBILITY. That will never happen , and thus makes no sense harping about "If only physicians would ALL AGREE to do X, Y Z"...Remember, each physician is independent and autonomous. Even if you got a group of docs to agree on one thing, you will always have outlyers, who will choose to do something different. The analogy of herding cats is extremely valid when you are discussing physicians. Therefore , we need to look at the situation with a realistic eye.

One important thing we must always REMEMBER, (I mentioned it in the Family Medicine FAQ) please, please, please remember that just because you were smart enough to finish medical school does not mean you have the brains for business. M.D. does not equal MBA. Secondly , your ability to make relationships with other individuals is SO IMPORTANT in terms of the deals you're able to secure to financially benefit you and your practice. If you are a total schmuck with no social skills and can't get along with anybody, I do not care if you are top of the medical school class, went to Harvard, AOA, etc. If you do not have the necessary social skills to make good relationships with other physicians, no one is going to send you business , no one will want to work with you, and you will financially suffer.

Sorry for the rambling, I am glad we are able to bring out these issues out in the open so that everybody can learn from our different perspectives.

PEACE!!

-Derek
 
This is a very interesting discussion. It just goes to show you how regional medicine is. In my state, Medicare is the highest payer, whereas Medicaid pays approximately one half of what Medicare does. Therefore, you would have to see TWO Medicaid patients to equal the reimbursement of one Medicare patient. Thats one reason why a lot of physicians do not take Medicaid.

Another factor to consider is Medicaid patients tend to be often very difficult to deal with the tend to be the most demanding, the most needy and suck up a LOT of your time. And often they will be the first to want to sue you if something goes wrong. I don't take Medicaid in my practice.

In my state, most private HMOs and PPOs pay a percentage of Medicare. Blue Cross and Aetna pay about 80% of Medicare. Humana and United pays 75% of Medicare. The one saving grace about these particular companies is
that they send you patients and volume.

If you want, you could have a completely 100% Medicare practice as that would make the most financial sense as Medicare is the highest payer in my state. However, as a family physician , who is trained to see all ages and who desires to see a variety of patients, seeing the 65 and over crowd exclusively for the sake of maximizing my dollar would completely BORE THE HELL OUT OF ME. I have to enjoy what I do do. In terms of my tastes and preferences, I HAVE to have variety of population. Seeing only 65+ y/o "HONDA's" (hypertensive-obese-noncompliant-diabetics) all day/every day would drive me nuts. I don't mind seeing the 20+ y/o with acute bronchitis who needs a Z-pack. I get the SAME reimbursement for that visit as I would for a "HONDA". I see both HMO patients and Medicare patients. I even have cash paying patients. I pretty much charge them what Medicare would charge. Thus my seeing a cash paying patient is equivalent to seeing a Medicare patient.

In terms of getting physicians in an area to all agree on one billing/pricing scheme, that is a theoretical and conceptual IMPOSSIBILITY. That will never happen , and thus makes no sense harping about "If only physicians would ALL AGREE to do X, Y Z"...Remember, each physician is independent and autonomous. Even if you got a group of docs to agree on one thing, you will always have outlyers, who will choose to do something different. The analogy of herding cats is extremely valid when you are discussing physicians. Therefore , we need to look at the situation with a realistic eye.

One important thing we must always REMEMBER, (I mentioned it in the Family Medicine FAQ) please, please, please remember that just because you were smart enough to finish medical school does not mean you have the brains for business. M.D. does not equal MBA. Secondly , your ability to make relationships with other individuals is SO IMPORTANT in terms of the deals you're able to secure to financially benefit you and your practice. If you are a total schmuck with no social skills and can't get along with anybody, I do not care if you are top of the medical school class, went to Harvard, AOA, etc. If you do not have the necessary social skills to make good relationships with other physicians, no one is going to send you business , no one will want to work with you, and you will financially suffer.

Sorry for the rambling, I am glad we are able to bring out these issues out in the open so that everybody can learn from our different perspectives.

PEACE!!

-Derek

So in your state medicare pays more than any other insurance? How interesting... i didnt think that was even possible.... the amount of geriatric patients in your state must be super high... sounds like Florida.. heh. I would be interested to hear how much of what you bill medicare goes to collections or is not paid compared to other insurances.

Anyway.. i agree the concept of gathering indivisual physicians is hard... but I insist it's doable... remember you dont need a 100% success.. just need to have 90% of the physician doing it. Large organizations like AMA/AOA can do this if they collaborate.. They need to do it city by city... not the entire nation at once... start with each primary care physician in a certain small city... move on from there to adjacent cities.
 
In my state, Medicare is the highest payer...Blue Cross and Aetna pay about 80% of Medicare. Humana and United pays 75% of Medicare.

You have my sympathy. Personally, I wouldn't accept an insurance plan that paid less than Medicare. There are more than enough Medicare patients out there to keep anyone busy.

seeing the 65 and over crowd exclusively for the sake of maximizing my dollar would completely BORE THE HELL OUT OF ME.

Actually, I think complicated medical patients are challenging and fun. I love my Medicare patients, and I hate the fact that I have to limit my panel size for financial reasons. If I were in your shoes, I'd say "Bring 'em on!"

Seeing only 65+ y/o "HONDA's" (hypertensive-obese-noncompliant-diabetics) all day/every day would drive me nuts.

Most of my "HONDAs" (I've never heard that term before, but I like it) have commercial insurance. The vast majority of these folks will never live to see age 65, despite my best efforts.

I don't mind seeing the 20+ y/o with acute bronchitis who needs a Z-pack.

Not to be an ass, but a 20 y/o with acute bronchitis has a virus, and doesn't need antibiotics. 😉

In terms of getting physicians in an area to all agree on one billing/pricing scheme, that is a theoretical and conceptual IMPOSSIBILITY.

It's also illegal.
 
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