What’s considered top-tiered/middle/bottom-tiered?

[capriccio]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Nope. Essentially, top-20 medical students have 3.9 GPAs, 520+ MCATs, and things like military service, world-class achievement in some area, and the ability to write as well as or better than most professional writers; some of them have published New York Times bestsellers or won awards as journalists. These guys are like the equivalent of Olympic athletes, and many of them were.

I sure wish I had the body of an Olympic athlete

 

[Walter Raleigh]

That was me, and I was

Wait, there are NASA Astronauts interviewing at medical school now? I've heard of people going from top medical schools to NASA, like Jonny Kim, former Navy SEAL, Harvard Medical School graduate, and astronaut candidate...but not the reverse!

 

[peanuttbuttah]

Wait, there are NASA Astronauts interviewing at medical school now? I've heard of people going from top medical schools to NASA, like Jonny Kim, former Navy SEAL, Harvard Medical School graduate, and astronaut candidate...but not the reverse!

yea you better catch up, buddy

 

[Goro]

Thought that thread was meant to be humorous.

Oh no, he was quite serious

 

[Walter Raleigh]

The military option was suggested by a friend of mine, a self-described redneck from West Virginia that went on to go to Harvard for undergrad; he now runs a ginseng farm in the mountains of West Virginia. I was just as shocked as you are when I heard him describe it in earnest!

 

[EpilepticRat]

The military option was suggested by a friend of mine, a self-described redneck from West Virginia that went on to go to Harvard for undergrad; he now runs a ginseng farm in the mountains of West Virginia. I was just as shocked as you are when I heard him describe it in earnest!

Based on your post history, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that your lack of success was not due to ECs, but interviewing skills

 

[beattheprocess]

a self-described redneck from West Virginia that went on to go to Harvard for undergrad

Harvard loves their weirdos so I'm not that surprised.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

I am a weirdo. Does this mean I should apply to Harvard?

 

[EpilepticRat]

I am a weirdo. Does this mean I should apply to Harvard?

 

[Harambe]

Based on your post history, I'm going to hazard a guess and say that your lack of success was not due to ECs, but interviewing skills

I was thinking this exact thought while reading his WAMC reapplicant thread. Walt, if you come across in person like how you do on SDN, interviewers are probably going to question your motivation for medicine and think you’re in it just for the prestige. I know I sure do.

 

[Goro]

I was thinking this exact thought while reading his WAMC reapplicant thread. Walt, if you come across in person like how you do on SDN, interviewers are probably going to question your motivation for medicine and think you’re in it just for the prestige. I know I sure do.

For the life of me, I can't find the citation, but there's data that shows that people's online persona are very close to that of real life.
Here's one, but not the one I was thinking of. Surprisingly, very little research has been done on this:

Manifestations of personality in Online Social Networks: self-reported Facebook-related behaviors and observable profile information - PubMed

Despite the enormous popularity of Online Social Networking sites (OSNs; e.g., Facebook and Myspace), little research in psychology has been done on them. Two studies examining how personality is reflected in OSNs revealed several connections between the Big Five personality traits and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

and another:

Face to (face)book: the two faces of social behavior? - PubMed

The results indicate substantial similarity between online and offline social behavior and identify avenues for future research on the possible use of Facebook to compensate for difficulty in everyday interactions.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[EpilepticRat]

For the life of me, I can't find the citation, but there's data that shows that people's online persona are very close to that of real life.
Here's one, but not the one I was thinking of. Surprisingly, very little research has been done on this:

Manifestations of personality in Online Social Networks: self-reported Facebook-related behaviors and observable profile information - PubMed

Despite the enormous popularity of Online Social Networking sites (OSNs; e.g., Facebook and Myspace), little research in psychology has been done on them. Two studies examining how personality is reflected in OSNs revealed several connections between the Big Five personality traits and...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

and another:

Face to (face)book: the two faces of social behavior? - PubMed

The results indicate substantial similarity between online and offline social behavior and identify avenues for future research on the possible use of Facebook to compensate for difficulty in everyday interactions.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Oh man this post almost made me feel better about myself

 

[Peter Pan.]

If I cure chicken pox maybe I can get into a top 20 school.

 

[MexicanMamba]

Can confirm you don’t need to be an astronaut that cured a disease to get into T25

source: I didn’t do it.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

What might I be able to do to show adcoms that I really want to become a doctor? Would it help if I took a job as a CNA in a hospice?

 

[freelancePsychic]

To OP, Elite is basically...would a random person in the UK recognize the name of your school? That is elite.

Top tier...would your average American recognize the name of the school? That is top tier.

Everything else is just state schools and lots of privates.

None of this matters, an MD is an MD.

This is a decent rule of thumb but laypeople base everything on undergrad rankings. Most haven't heard of some elite schools like WashU or UCSF. And the US news rankings aren’t much better. For instance, premeds sleep on Case Western and their match list is deific: 18 Ortho, 10 Optho, 9 neurosurgery, 9 derm, 9 urology, and 5 ENT last year which is way better than most T10s.

All the ranking systems are misleading. If a program matches people to specialties you like in good locations, who cares if it’s ranked 10 or 110? We’re just using rankings as a proxy for match list anyway.

 

[deleted962973]

This is a decent rule of thumb but laypeople base everything on undergrad rankings. Most haven't heard of some elite schools like WashU or UCSF. And the US news rankings aren’t much better. For instance, premeds sleep on Case Western and their match list is deific: 18 Ortho, 10 Optho, 9 neurosurgery, 9 derm, 9 urology, and 5 ENT last year which is way better than most T10s.

All the ranking systems are misleading. If a program matches people to specialties you like in good locations, who cares if it’s ranked 10 or 110? We’re just using rankings as a proxy for match list anyway.

Yeah this. Laypeople genuinely don’t know what’s up besides Harvard being #1. I don’t really know how to classify the “elite” schools since they change so much over the years (vs law or business where there is a very stable T14 and M7). The best thing is not to worry about it lol. If your school consistently matches people into top specialties and residencies year after year, then it’s probably a good enough school.

Also “deific”- learnt a new word today

 

[Osminog]

This is a decent rule of thumb but laypeople base everything on undergrad rankings.

SDNers are sometimes quick to overestimate the common American's familiarity with and interest in the topics that SDNers tend to care about.

Laypeople don't base everything on undergrad rankings, because laypeople don't know what the undergrad rankings are. Most laypeople know virtually nothing about the pedigree of higher education institutions, and they couldn't care less about it. The only thing they may know is that Harvard (or Yale or Stanford) is the "best college ever" because somebody said so in a movie or TV show they like, or because their favorite politician went there for law school. Only around a third of Americans have a four-year college degree, and most Americans were B or C students throughout high school. Why would a construction worker or cashier or data entry clerk care about the selectivity of WUSTL's medical program or its performance in the match? To the average person, a doctor's a doctor; Johns Hopkins is equivalent to Ross University.

 

[deleted962973]

SDNers are sometimes quick to overestimate the common American's familiarity with and interest in the topics that SDNers tend to care about.

Laypeople don't base everything on undergrad rankings, because laypeople don't know what the undergrad rankings are. Most laypeople know virtually nothing about the pedigree of higher education institutions, and they couldn't care less about it. The only thing they may know is that Harvard (or Yale or Stanford) is the "best college ever" because somebody said so in a movie or TV show they like, or because their favorite politician went there for law school. Only around a third of Americans have a four-year college degree, and most Americans were B or C students throughout high school. Why would a construction worker or cashier or data entry clerk care about the selectivity of WUSTL's medical program or its performance in the match? To the average person, a doctor's a doctor; Johns Hopkins is equivalent to Ross University.

Even laypeople that are knowledgeable about higher education aren’t necessarily knowledgeable about med school rankings. Your typical college student in the US or Europe knows that Harvard Yale and Princeton are the top undergrad schools in the country, but wouldn’t be able to tell you whether their associated med schools have the same prestige.

That’s why I disagreed with @MemeLord saying “elite = someone in the UK knows how good your med school is” because your average student in the UK won’t know anything other than those select few undergrad schools. Forget knowing anything about med schools like UCSF or Mayo Clinic which don’t even have undergrad institutions but are still top in the country. Elite = whether or not residency directors think your school is elite.

 

[KnightDoc]

They get better students, on a consistent basis, than the likes of Harvard?! There are Harvard med students with better publication records than many of the faculty members there; there are double amputee war heroes there and former refugees. Harvard can get the best of the best of the best - the decorated Navy SEALs, the professional athletes, the occasional NASA rocket scientist - and bring them to Massachusetts for training with the best professors that medical science has to offer.

This actually remains to be seen, since this upcoming cycle will be the first cycle (from the beginning of the cycle) in which people are applying to NYU knowing that it is tuition-free. Let's see what the Navy SEALs, professional athletes, NASA scientists, etc. do if/when a Harvard MD turns out costing $250,000 more than one from NYU before declaring that Harvard will attract better students, on a consistent basis, going forward. Let's see whether Harvard is forced to make more merit awards to avoid losing students they would have attracted in the past, or, assuming it refuses to do so (because it is Harvard), whether what was true in the past will continue to be true in the future. Ken Langone and NYU made a huge bet that you are wrong. We'll know when the results from the 2019-20 cycle are reported in 2021!

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Agreed. They might manage to get not only a class full of people with world-class accomplishments like concert pianists, NASA rocket scientists, MacArthur Genius Grant winners, Green Beret officers, and founders of billion-dollar companies...but have a median MCAT/GPA of 3.9/522 to boot. If they did that, NYU might become the best school in the country.

However, Harvard's got a huge endowment; they're rich as Croesus and could simply offer full rides to every accepted student if they liked.

 

[KnightDoc]

Agreed. They might manage to get not only a class full of people with world-class accomplishments like concert pianists, NASA rocket scientists, MacArthur Genius Grant winners, Green Beret officers, and founders of billion-dollar companies...but have a median MCAT/GPA of 3.9/522 to boot. If they did that, NYU might become the best school in the country.

However, Harvard's got a huge endowment; they're rich as Croesus and could simply offer full rides to every accepted student if they liked.

Agreed, and it would be great to see it happen. My hope is that all of the top schools engage in an arms race resulting in free tuition for all!!

Also, as I'm sure you know, the "quality" of a school depends on many factors other than the stats of the students, so Harvard would probably remain the "#1" school by many metrics, even if NYU ends up being the toughest school to get into, with the highest median MCAT and GPA!

 

[Harambe]

What might I be able to do to show adcoms that I really want to become a doctor? Would it help if I took a job as a CNA in a hospice?

I don't think the issue is showing adcoms that you really want to become a doctor, but rather showing them that you wouldn't be an insufferable colleague due to some weird obsession with achievements and prestige. I'd recommend taking another year off before reapplying and like, making new friends through a hobby or going on some dates lol - something where you can get some sort of real-time feedback on your ability to mesh well with others socially.

 

[Goro]

I don't think the issue is showing adcoms that you really want to become a doctor, but rather showing them that you wouldn't be an insufferable colleague due to some weird obsession with achievements and prestige. I'd recommend taking another year off before reapplying and like, making new friends through a hobby or going on some dates lol - something where you can get some sort of real-time feedback on your ability to mesh well with others socially.

On top of that, not being clueless really helps.

Residents get fired for being unteachable.

 

[MyOdyssey]

Even laypeople that are knowledgeable about higher education aren’t necessarily knowledgeable about med school rankings. Your typical college student in the US or Europe knows that Harvard Yale and Princeton are the top undergrad schools in the country, but wouldn’t be able to tell you whether their associated med schools have the same prestige.

That’s why I disagreed with @MemeLord saying “elite = someone in the UK knows how good your med school is” because your average student in the UK won’t know anything other than those select few undergrad schools. Forget knowing anything about med schools like UCSF or Mayo Clinic which don’t even have undergrad institutions but are still top in the country. Elite = whether or not residency directors think your school is elite.

Huh?

 

[Harambe]

Huh?

Yeah, Princeton doesn't have an associated medical school.

 

[deleted962973]

Huh?

Yes I’m aware Princeton doesn’t have a med school... was trying to make a point that the average person might not even know that

 

[ciestar]

Yes I’m aware Princeton doesn’t have a med school... was trying to make a point that the average person might not even know that

And the show House also told you there was lol

 

[deleted962973]

And the show House also told you there was lol

Tbh I avoid New Jersey as a rule of thumb so even if there was a Princeton Med School (PMS?) I would stay away at all costs

 

[M&L]

Top tier: those that accepted me.
Middle tier: those that interviewed me
Bottom tier: those that rejected me

Can't go to a place you're not accepted into

yeah!!! Mayo SUCKS!!!! 🙂)) hahahhaha. (obviously they rejected me)

 

[M&L]

Keep in mind this is the same person who posted a thread, because he has to reapply, about joining the military just to boost ECs.

Seriously? that's a joke, right? Joining military just to boost ECs is a "great" option. Will be a real great wake up call. I say go for it 🙂)))

 

[M&L]

I don't think the issue is showing adcoms that you really want to become a doctor, but rather showing them that you wouldn't be an insufferable colleague due to some weird obsession with achievements and prestige. I'd recommend taking another year off before reapplying and like, making new friends through a hobby or going on some dates lol - something where you can get some sort of real-time feedback on your ability to mesh well with others socially.

yeah.... great advice.
I might also suggest a "rough" approach. Go intern in a pathology lab or morgue, look at dead bodies, see that waste and loss of life firsthand, and I swear, your perspective will change REALLY quick.

 

[kellybkk]

Even laypeople that are knowledgeable about higher education aren’t necessarily knowledgeable about med school rankings. Your typical college student in the US or Europe knows that Harvard Yale and Princeton are the top undergrad schools in the country, but wouldn’t be able to tell you whether their associated med schools have the same prestige.

That’s why I disagreed with @MemeLord saying “elite = someone in the UK knows how good your med school is” because your average student in the UK won’t know anything other than those select few undergrad schools. Forget knowing anything about med schools like UCSF or Mayo Clinic which don’t even have undergrad institutions but are still top in the country. Elite = whether or not residency directors think your school is elite.

I know what you mean, especially about Princeton Medical School. Literally invisible.

 

[Lucca]

This is a decent rule of thumb but laypeople base everything on undergrad rankings. Most haven't heard of some elite schools like WashU or UCSF. And the US news rankings aren’t much better. For instance, premeds sleep on Case Western and their match list is deific: 18 Ortho, 10 Optho, 9 neurosurgery, 9 derm, 9 urology, and 5 ENT last year which is way better than most T10s.

All the ranking systems are misleading. If a program matches people to specialties you like in good locations, who cares if it’s ranked 10 or 110? We’re just using rankings as a proxy for match list anyway.

If the idea is to use match lists then you can’t rly make any blanket statements based on how many go into what specialty. I think one should judge a match list, roughly, on a two dimensional axis: location and reputation of residency program within that specialty. Matching anywhere in ortho is a pretty impressive feat...but if you have no interest or don’t just want to do ortho but want to train at the best academic center for ortho in the country then you need to ask yourself if that school will make it easier for you to do so by looking at where people are going within their desired specialty. You also have to ask where in the country you want to live long term as it’s honestly pretty likely that you will begin or want to begin to put down roots towards the end of med school.

Also have to keep in mind that there are many invisible variables within match lists like opportunities for partners, families, geographic preferences, etc. It’s also important to note that places that are prestigious for med school May not have strong residency programs in every discipline. Similarly, lesser known médical schools may be associated with top tier residency programs.