Whats the real difference between MD schools and DO?

[SadreapplicantQQ]

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Checking out match lists and NYIT seems to have matches quite similar to my state schools and other low ranking MD privates.

 

[Goro]

Do a search, please

 

[Isoval]

The short answer is that there really isn’t one.

If you want a longer, more detailed answer, follow the wise cat’s advice above.

In before I accidentally turn this into an MD vs DO thread.

 

[JPmoleymole]

Residency match rates.

 

[Schwifty]

At one you become an MD, at the other you become a DO

 

[premedalt]

One difference I heard about is less research opportunities at DO schools. Matters more for the more competitive specialties.

 

[Rogue42]

The real difference? There isn't one. And look, honestly, I am about to catch a lot of shade for saying that, but - IN THE END - there isn't. Sure, people will say there are less opportunities for research, or the match rates are not as good, or you will have a tough time matching for competitive specialties, or you have to study more for this and that. Whatever, those things are still dependent on YOU. I have shadowed and worked with both MDs and DOs in family medicine and in specialties. And at the end of the day, they are physicians. They practice medicine, and in honesty, they do not do it very differently - the patients do not even know the difference. They make the same salary.

Now, I am not saying that matching into to something competitive is not as difficult - because it is. I am not saying that you will not have to study more for two boards, because you will. I am not saying that finding research will be as easy - because it isn't. What I am saying is this; do NOT be mediocre. If anything in life is worth doing, it is worth overdoing. It is worth being the very best you can be. You want research as a DO, then GO GET IT. You want to make phenomenal board scores, then STUDY YOUR TAIL OFF AND KILL MEDICAL SCHOOL. There are plenty of DOs getting great, amazing matches - even into competitive specialties. Heck, there are even DOs in high powered positions at MD schools and in general. For example, the Physician to the President currently is a DO who graduated from PCOM.

TLDR: At the end of school and residency, there is no difference. MDs and DOs will both be in debt, they will both make the same money, they can both achieve the same residencies, they can both do it all and are licensed to do it all (pending specialty choice obviously), they can both advance exceptionally far in their career. At worst, there are just a few more obstacles to get there as a DO. But a mediocre student will be a mediocre student regardless of whether they attend allopathic or osteopathic schools. Be different.

 

[Dwan]

The real difference? There isn't one. And look, honestly, I am about to catch a lot of shade for saying that, but - IN THE END - there isn't. Sure, people will say there are less opportunities for research, or the match rates are not as good, or you will have a tough time matching for competitive specialties, or you have to study more for this and that. Whatever, those things are still dependent on YOU. I have shadowed and worked with both MDs and DOs in family medicine and in specialties. And at the end of the day, they are physicians. They practice medicine, and in honesty, they do not do it very differently - the patients do not even know the difference. They make the same salary.

Now, I am not saying that matching into to something competitive is not as difficult - because it is. I am not saying that you will not have to study more for two boards, because you will. I am not saying that finding research will be as easy - because it isn't. What I am saying is this; do NOT be mediocre. If anything in life is worth doing, it is worth overdoing. It is worth being the very best you can be. You want research as a DO, then GO GET IT. You want to make phenomenal board scores, then STUDY YOUR TAIL OFF AND KILL MEDICAL SCHOOL. There are plenty of DOs getting great, amazing matches - even into competitive specialties. Heck, there are even DOs in high powered positions at MD schools and in general. For example, the Physician to the President currently is a DO who graduated from PCOM.

TLDR: At the end of school and residency, there is no difference. MDs and DOs will both be in debt, they will both make the same money, they can both achieve the same residencies, they can both do it all and are licensed to do it all (pending specialty choice obviously), they can both advance exceptionally far in their career. At worst, there are just a few more obstacles to get there as a DO. But a mediocre student will be a mediocre student regardless of whether they attend allopathic or osteopathic schools. Be different.

There are many programs that simply won't take DOs no matter what, for example, the high majority of the top 20 IM programs. If that is your goal, it won't matter how hard you work or how exceptional you are. And if you want to break into the programs just outside the top 20, then you'll need to be that star DO who would've been qualified for JHU or UCSF if they were an MD, just to have a chance (I know a DO with 260s step 1/2 who interviewed at one of these places, ranked by prestige, but dropped to a low-tier school with many carrib IMGs- pretty much impossible as a USMD unless by choice). Also, the high majority of med students work hard and don't want to be mediocre, in both MD and DO schools - it's not quite as simple as saying you plan to work hard. I had strong performances in undergrad, continued to work extremely hard as a USMD (I wanted to match at a competitive academic center), and I still got beat academically by tons of people, both MDs and DOs. The difference is that despite mediocre med school performances, I was still able to interview at top tier IM programs that don't take even the most exceptional DOs in the nation. Not everyone cares about prestigious places or competitive specialties, but for those interested, it's important to give an informed perspective.

 

[LukaDoncicLuk]

Just an admitted MD student so take my comments with a massive grain of salt ( I applied to a few DO schools but didn't get any interviews from them). These are my own personal reasons why I would not attend a DO if I had an acceptance to an MD school.

1- OMM is mostly BS. There is pretty much no evidence to support OMM and all of the DOs I've talked to said they have never seen an indication for it. Any time spent studying or doing OMM is pretty much wasted time that you will never get back. I put a high premium on time so this was the biggest turn off for me.

2- Two sets of boards. COMLEX is useless for matching into programs that were/are historically allopathic. You are still forced into taking COMLEX in order to graduate and have to take USMLE to match.

3- Sketchy rotation sites. It seems that DO schools do not have to have rotation sites locked down for their students. Some schools send their students all around the country or around the state. I have a SO that I will be living with so this was a non-starter for me.

4- Minimal or no research support depending on school. Most MD schools with the exception of newer ones will have ample research opportunities

5- Harder to match. You can do a forum search for this one.


The first two in particular are unique to DO schools. Even if they do end up matching similar to low tier or state MDs why bother going through this unnecessary junk if you don't have to?

 

[Rogue42]

There are many programs that simply won't take DOs no matter what, for example, the high majority of the top 20 IM programs. If that is your goal, it won't matter how hard you work or how exceptional you are. And if you want to break into the programs just outside the top 20, then you'll need to be that star DO who would've been qualified for JHU or UCSF if they were an MD, just to have a chance (I know a DO with 260s step 1/2 who interviewed at one of these places, ranked by prestige, but dropped to a low-tier school with many carrib IMGs- pretty much impossible as a USMD unless by choice). Also, the high majority of med students work hard and don't want to be mediocre, in both MD and DO schools - it's not quite as simple as saying you plan to work hard. I had strong performances in undergrad, continued to work extremely hard as a USMD (I wanted to match at a competitive academic center), and I still got beat academically by tons of people, both MDs and DOs. The difference is that despite mediocre med school performances, I was still able to interview at top tier IM programs that don't take even the most exceptional DOs in the nation. Not everyone cares about prestigious places or competitive specialties, but for those interested, it's important to give an informed perspective.

He asked what the difference is. The difference - in practice - is that there is not one. I mentioned clearly that there are hurdles and obstacles for being a DO, but once in practice there is not a difference. I am not disagreeing with you on the residency issue; what I am saying is that as a DO you might have to work harder than an MD for the same residency, sure. But that is still dependent on the person - you still have to work hard, study hard, do research, make connections, and do what you can to overcome those obstacles. Further, it is important to note that the majority of applicants end up at a DO school for a reason. For example, I wanted to do Ortho for a long time, but heck, I am not even a top 1% medical school applicant much less a top 1% medical school performer, so I, personally, have already lowered my goals to be realistic. And anyone going into DO schools should realistically look at their own goals. If you want to be a top 20 IM resident, you have to be prepared to do everything possible and still fail. BUT, you end up as a doctor at the end.

 

[Dwan]

He asked what the difference is. The difference - in practice - is that there is not one. I mentioned clearly that there are hurdles and obstacles for being a DO, but once in practice there is not a difference. I am not disagreeing with you on the residency issue; what I am saying is that as a DO you might have to work harder than an MD for the same residency, sure. But that is still dependent on the person - you still have to work hard, study hard, do research, make connections, and do what you can to overcome those obstacles. Further, it is important to note that the majority of applicants end up at a DO school for a reason. For example, I wanted to do Ortho for a long time, but heck, I am not even a top 1% medical school applicant much less a top 1% medical school performer, so I, personally, have already lowered my goals to be realistic. And anyone going into DO schools should realistically look at their own goals. If you want to be a top 20 IM resident, you have to be prepared to do everything possible and still fail. BUT, you end up as a doctor at the end.

The OP was asking for differences in regards to match potential - read the opening post. If your only goal is to become a doctor, regardless of field or institution, then there are little differences, as most will make it there from either. For everything else, it is dependent on the applicant's goals and field of choice, but it can be a real difference for those who fail to achieve their goals, even if they're still a doctor.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

 

[Rogue42]

The OP was asking for differences in regards to match potential - read the opening post. If your only goal is to become a doctor, regardless of field or institution, then there are little differences, as most will make it there from either. For everything else, it is dependent on the applicant's goals and field of choice, but it can be a real difference for those who fail to achieve their goals, even if they're still a doctor.

Ah, yes. I thought the title of his thread read, "What is the real difference between MDs and DOs." Again, I agree there is a difference on the ability to match into competitive specialties / places.

 

[787593]

 

[Angus Avagadro]

There are many programs that simply won't take DOs no matter what, for example, the high majority of the top 20 IM programs. If that is your goal, it won't matter how hard you work or how exceptional you are. And if you want to break into the programs just outside the top 20, then you'll need to be that star DO who would've been qualified for JHU or UCSF if they were an MD, just to have a chance (I know a DO with 260s step 1/2 who interviewed at one of these places, ranked by prestige, but dropped to a low-tier school with many carrib IMGs- pretty much impossible as a USMD unless by choice). Also, the high majority of med students work hard and don't want to be mediocre, in both MD and DO schools - it's not quite as simple as saying you plan to work hard. I had strong performances in undergrad, continued to work extremely hard as a USMD (I wanted to match at a competitive academic center), and I still got beat academically by tons of people, both MDs and DOs. The difference is that despite mediocre med school performances, I was still able to interview at top tier IM programs that don't take even the most exceptional DOs in the nation. Not everyone cares about prestigious places or competitive specialties, but for those interested, it's important to give an informed perspective.

2 of my students matched IM at the Cleveland Clinic, considered by many to be a top 20 program. Lots of great fellowship opportunities there. It's not all gloom and doom. Board scores get you in the door, but are no guarantee. If you dont interview well, then you go elsewhere . No one wants to hire a problem

 

[Dwan]

2 of my students matched IM at the Cleveland Clinic, considered by many to be a top 20 program. Lots of great fellowship opportunities there. It's not all gloom and doom. Board scores get you in the door, but are no guarantee. If you dont interview well, then you go elsewhere . No one wants to hire a problem

CCF isn't considered to be in the top 20 for IM (most would rank it as a mid-tier, they are recognized more for their fellowship programs), but if that is the goal, they take plenty of DOs and IMGs every year. It's not a particularly competitive program for US-MDs. DOs have had matches to great places though, it's just most of the top 20 won't even consider them.

 

[Isoval]

CCF isn't considered to be in the top 20 for IM (most would rank it as a mid-tier, they are recognized more for their fellowship programs), but if that is the goal, they take plenty of DOs and IMGs every year. It's not a particularly competitive program for US-MDs. DOs have had matches to great places though, it's just most of the top 20 won't even consider them.

However, the IM fellowships are all top-tier. If that’s the goal, CCF is a very solid match.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

CCF isn't considered to be in the top 20 for IM (most would rank it as a mid-tier, they are recognized more for their fellowship programs), but if that is the goal, they take plenty of DOs and IMGs every year. It's not a particularly competitive program for US-MDs. DOs have had matches to great places though, it's just most of the top 20 won't even consider them.

Beckers hospital review quoted Doximetry and had CCM listed as # 20 for internal.medicine. So some do consider it top 20. Its an easy Google.

 

[Dwan]

Beckers hospital review quoted Doximetry and had CCM listed as # 20 for internal.medicine. So some do consider it top 20. Its an easy Google.

Are you actually in internal medicine? Anyone in the field knows the general gist of the rankings and competitiveness of the programs, and Doximity does not reflect that. The Doximity rankings also have Pennsy, the community affiliate of Penn (along with CCF), above BIDMC, U-Chicago, Cornell, Yale. Feel free to compare the residents and fellowship matches of those with Pennsy (or CCF) and decide for yourself if they are comparable. CCF is a solid mid tier program with great research opportunities and if that is your goal, that's fine - it's not a competitive place for US-MDs unlike the actual top 20s, and doesn't have the best reputation for clinical training. Their rating system gives priority to US-MDs to have leeway for lower steps, yet they still struggle to recruit them. DOs have matched into programs more competitive and prestigious than CCF, and if you were in IM, you'd use those as a selling point instead. My point stands, however, that much of the top 20 will not even consider DOs no matter how stellar they are. Search the yearly IM Match results here on SDN (google IM match results *Year* sdn) or the reddit doc and you can see drastic differences in interview invites among the DOs with 250s-260s vs US-MDs, even with average steps.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

You ask....Are you actually in internal medicine?

No, so it would be true that I might be up to date with the gestalt of IM.

Yet,...….CCF is a solid mid tier program with great research opportunities, according to you.

So how does a mediocre program have great research and clinical fellowships?

I posted.....Beckers hospital review quoted Doximetry and had CCM listed as # 20 for internal medicine. So some do consider it top 20. Its an easy Google.
Clearly opinions vary

You said.....My point stands, however, that much of the top 20 will not even consider DOs no matter how stellar they are.

This is somehow news? Its been that way for over 100 years. Our local University has never taken a DO in IM as to date. If any DO student doesn't realize bias toward them exists, they have been living under a rock or just joined SDN. If you want a shot at such a program, you have to work harder and play the match game better, finding programs that are more DO friendly, improving your app. etc. If this does not appeal to you and you want to be a neurosurgeon, take that gap year and get your MD. Then compete with classmates who got 515 on the MCAT and 260 on Step 1 for that Neurosurgery residency.

Let me dispel an SDN fallacy, that being if you have a very strong step 1 score, 255+ or better, this entitles you to a Top Tier residency slot. You see posts, not infrequently, of someone with such a score and not matching. I used to sit on the residents selection committee for several years at our local university and know what kind of candidates they are looking for. A good Step 1 score does 2 things IMO:

1, it keeps your application from being screened into the "do not interview pile"

2. it allows further evaluation of you application.

It does NOT guarantee acceptance. Knowing the applicant from an audition rotation is a big help. From that experience, we can be assured if we can teach this person or not.
Interviewing skills are critical. No one wants to hire a problem. Do some people with great Step 1 scores not match? Of course. They either bombed the interview, were rude/arrogant to other applicants and department staff, or played the match game poorly; not applying broadly enough, no plan B programs, etc. Competitive programs by nature attract good candidates and the applicant may not have as competitive an application as the other applicants in the room.

Beating your head against the wall trying to get into a program that is geographically convenient for you may not be the best choice either. As a DO you will have to be willing to relocate to get the best training.

Wringing your hands about DO bias is non productive. Be grateful to DOs of my generation who started kicking down the doors at many programs. Upcoming applicants, its your turn, to keep kicking harder for the next generation.

 

[Dwan]

You ask....Are you actually in internal medicine?

No, so it would be true that I might be up to date with the gestalt of IM.

Yet,...….CCF is a solid mid tier program with great research opportunities, according to you.

So how does a mediocre program have great research and clinical fellowships?

I posted.....Beckers hospital review quoted Doximetry and had CCM listed as # 20 for internal medicine. So some do consider it top 20. Its an easy Google.
Clearly opinions vary

You said.....My point stands, however, that much of the top 20 will not even consider DOs no matter how stellar they are.

This is somehow news? Its been that way for over 100 years. Our local University has never taken a DO in IM as to date. If any DO student doesn't realize bias toward them exists, they have been living under a rock or just joined SDN. If you want a shot at such a program, you have to work harder and play the match game better, finding programs that are more DO friendly, improving your app. etc. If this does not appeal to you and you want to be a neurosurgeon, take that gap year and get your MD. Then compete with classmates who got 515 on the MCAT and 260 on Step 1 for that Neurosurgery residency.

Let me dispel an SDN fallacy, that being if you have a very strong step 1 score, 255+ or better, this entitles you to a Top Tier residency slot. You see posts, not infrequently, of someone with such a score and not matching. I used to sit on the residents selection committee for several years at our local university and know what kind of candidates they are looking for. A good Step 1 score does 2 things IMO:

1, it keeps your application from being screened into the "do not interview pile"

2. it allows further evaluation of you application.

It does NOT guarantee acceptance. Knowing the applicant from an audition rotation is a big help. From that experience, we can be assured if we can teach this person or not.
Interviewing skills are critical. No one wants to hire a problem. Do some people with great Step 1 scores not match? Of course. They either bombed the interview, were rude/arrogant to other applicants and department staff, or played the match game poorly; not applying broadly enough, no plan B programs, etc. Competitive programs by nature attract good candidates and the applicant may not have as competitive an application as the other applicants in the room.

Beating your head against the wall trying to get into a program that is geographically convenient for you may not be the best choice either. As a DO you will have to be willing to relocate to get the best training.

Wringing your hands about DO bias is non productive. Be grateful to DOs of my generation who started kicking down the doors at many programs. Upcoming applicants, its your turn, to keep kicking harder for the next generation.

CCF is known for their research, not the clinical training. If you go to SCVMC or UCLA-olive view, you have easy access to all the research and faculty at Stanford and UCLA respectively (and even solid training), however, that doesn't mean they are top tiers. We're speaking from a competition standpoint which is the most relevant to any ranking system for applicants - any of the 400+ IM programs can be considered "top" for anyone subjectively, but if your goals involve one of the traditional competitive top places, then DO may not be the best bet. As I said before, if you want to go to CCF, then DO is a fine option - they take tons of DOs and IMGs every year. I don't get why you're talking about step scores here, are you trying to debate that those DOs with 250s to 260s posting here all had other flaws, while the MDs on the same threads just happen to be perfect? No one debates that you can do badly if you have great steps but other major flaws; the DO I spoke about in my first ex. with 260+ steps did not, and ended up being known as the best resident in the low-tier program. As a US-MD, you are not out of the running even with mediocre scores and some weaknesses in your application, as with mine. I don't agree it's a myth that 260 = guaranteed top tier even if you're a weirdo with flags (everyone knows that), I think the bigger myth here is that even as an MD, you are unlikely to get NSG without a 260 (or any other exaggeration of "top student") as you imply in your example. The match rate to NSG as a USMD with a 220-230 step is 68%, 230-240 is 75%, and 240-250 93%, without even controlling for the fact that some of these may be weirdos. I'm sure many of your school's DO students achieved scores in this range.

 

[Instatewaiter]

2 of my students matched IM at the Cleveland Clinic, considered by many to be a top 20 program. Lots of great fellowship opportunities there. It's not all gloom and doom. Board scores get you in the door, but are no guarantee. If you dont interview well, then you go elsewhere . No one wants to hire a problem

Very few people consider that a top 20 medicine program. Most in the know on this board wouldn't put it in the top 30 or 40 for IM residency.

 

[Instatewaiter]

So how does a mediocre program have great research and clinical fellowships?

I posted.....Beckers hospital review quoted Doximetry and had CCM listed as # 20 for internal medicine. So some do consider it top 20. Its an easy Google.
Clearly opinions vary

Cleveland Clinic was created as a specialty hospital. Internal medicine was created as an afterthought there. This means that the specialties have traditionally been strong (ie cardiology has been number one for a quarter of a century) but medicine was left the scraps. So, the fellowship training there is strong which is why you will see (in the strong IM fellowships) fellows from top teir residencies. Contrast this with where the IM residents come from - non-top tier medical schools.

other things that don't make the residency as strong as toptier residencies include:
1)Autonomy: the residents do not get the same kind of autonomy as the top tier programs.

2) lack of a presence in most specialty areas - there are appoximately 200-250 beds in cardiology -a quarter have any IM resident involvement- half of that quarter where the fellow runs the show.

Now it is not all bad. The residents at CCF get exposure to things that most people will never see, have opportunities for research and it can be matched as a DO or FMG. However, when compared to the quality of training seen at the major programs like Hopkins, MGH, the Brigham, Penn, Columbia, Duke, Stanford, UCSF, UAB, Emory, UTSW, Michigan, wash U, oshu, wahsington u, northwestern, Mt sinai, vandy, yale, UNC, BIDMC, and mayo (FYI that was 22 off the top of my head) it doesn't compare favorably. It is a strong upper midtier program but it doesn't belong with the big boys, at least yet.

The issue with doximity are the methods. Much of it is from people who are asked their opinion and don't necessarily know which are strong residency training programs but hear of a place because of the strength of it's medicine subspecialties. A strong GI department does not automatically square a strong IM residency