When applying towards residency, what information is included on the resume?

[Dark Magician]

My friend asked me this question recently, and I was wondering if someone could shed light on this just to ease my curiosity. I know that for med school, things are included only if they happen after high school. Is residency the same way (ie things after graduating college/happen during med school)?

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[qwerty2012]

all the stuffs u do in med schools + research stuffs(publications) you have done in undergrad and on your own time. All the other stuffs like grades from undergrad are pointless.

 

[Catalystik]

My friend asked me this question recently, and I was wondering if someone could shed light on this just to ease my curiosity. I know that for med school, things are included only if they happen after high school. Is residency the same way (ie things after graduating college/happen during med school)?

The ERAS application form includes Experience categories for Work (includes Clinical and Teaching), Research, and Volunteer. There's another area for Publications which includes Posters/Presentations (a total of 9 subcategories). I've seen Residency applicants include college-level Research and related activities like highly-significant leadership, work, and volunteer activities from college that shed light on a relevant component of their personality. Some med schools' advisors discourage this inclusion and others feel it's appropriate.

 

[487806]

My friend asked me this question recently, and I was wondering if someone could shed light on this just to ease my curiosity. I know that for med school, things are included only if they happen after high school. Is residency the same way (ie things after graduating college/happen during med school)?

Have you or your friend been accepted to medical school?

 

[Dark Magician]

Have you or your friend been accepted to medical school?

yup 🙂

The ERAS application form includes Experience categories for Work (includes Clinical and Teaching), Research, and Volunteer. There's another area for Publications which includes Posters/Presentations (a total of 9 subcategories). I've seen Residency applicants include college-level Research and related activities like highly-significant leadership, work, and volunteer activities from college that shed light on a relevant component of their personality. Some med schools' advisors discourage this inclusion and others feel it's appropriate.

Ok, thanks for clearing this up! I appreciate it. I was just worried that if you were mediocre at best in the EC department during undergrad, it could haunt you for residency applications.

 

[Bacchus]

I included on my ERAS all my jobs I held during college (some starting in high school) and all activities I did in college. I didn't include high school activities.

My reasoning was 2-fold: 1) I felt my application was rather bare without doing it to be honest and 2) It gave a better idea of where I was coming from and what my general background and interests were along with setting up a general perception of who I was.

 

[angldrps]

I included on my ERAS all my jobs I held during college (some starting in high school) and all activities I did in college. I didn't include high school activities.

My reasoning was 2-fold: 1) I felt my application was rather bare without doing it to be honest and 2) It gave a better idea of where I was coming from and what my general background and interests were along with setting up a general perception of who I was.

Just to clarify, you included the same ECs from your application when applying for medical schools ?

 

[487806]

yup 🙂

Congrats! I wanted to make sure you're set in the game before thinking too ahead. As others have mentioned, it's ok to indirectly mention your college work in personal statement to reflect about yourself, but your main work will be focused on what you did in med school. So, I guess there's some small leeway for residency applications than med school applications.

 

[mimelim]

Just to clarify, you included the same ECs from your application when applying for medical schools ?

You are applying for jobs. You want to present the best possible application that you can to get people to want to hire you. Activities in medical school are more relevant than UG or HS because they are more current. At the same time, medical school is academically more demanding than the other two and necessitates a reduction in time spent on ECs. There are no guidelines, much less rules regarding what you put on your application. You don't get hand held through it. You are responsible for picking out what you have done with the last decade of your life and presenting it as a compelling argument for hiring you. If what you did in undergrad is relevant, then you put it down.

You realize very quickly how little people care about the number of hours that you do things. They care far more about what you produce and what you spend your time on. Hopefully, you are productive outside of the classroom in medical school so that you have something to talk about at interviews. At the same time, nobody is expecting that you will hold down jobs while you are in medical school.

 

[Bacchus]

Just to clarify, you included the same ECs from your application when applying for medical schools ?

Yes, many of the same.

I am applying family medicine. The true family doctor (as well as other providers, obviously) has a vested interest in patients. I framed my college activities in such a light to convey my ability to care for a patient. I tied it in to my ability to teach and work with varied individuals. My jobs were framed to demonstrate I like many different things. I've had a few interviewers comment on my job experiences and how they were "hard/blue collar" labor and it makes me better sympathize with my patients.

This is all a matter of how you framed it. I wanted to make myself look like the most rounded individual possible while being able to provide, well rounded and comprehensive care.

As mentioned above, med school can demand a large amount of time. I did piece meal things in medical school and participated in a few interest groups. If I would have only included this I wouldn't have been able to paint the exact portrait I wanted of myself.

 

[sommerwing]

Keep in mind that different program directors look for different things in an application.

I spoke with a MS3 friend who works with a Plastics resident who was choosing students to interview, and he noted that he initially ONLY looks at four things:
Step 1, Research, Medical school, and Letters.

he says that he doesn't even factor in grades/ ECs/class rank unless he needs to resort to some sort of "tie-breaker."
Quite interesting, and shocking. But of course, this probably isn't standard.

 

[alamo4]

Keep in mind that different program directors look for different things in an application.

I spoke with a MS3 friend who works with a Plastics resident who was choosing students to interview, and he noted that he initially ONLY looks at three things:
Step 1, Research, Medical school, and Letters.

he says that he doesn't even factor in grades/ ECs/class rank unless he needs to resort to some sort of "tie-breaker."
Quite interesting, and shocking. But of course, this probably isn't standard.

As far as I know that IS the standard. Your EC's and other activities are completely irrelevant unless you are applying for some oddball, niche residency program, for example some family medicine program in a rural area, or with a focus on Native Hawaiian health, or completely Spanish speaking patient base, etc. Then they want to see you have some commitment in that area.

Overall, they want you to come to their program and excel as a resident, either through taking on a heavy clinical load, or writing tons of papers or both. If you coach middle school basketball every weekend on the wrong side of the tracks, that might strike some residency director's fancy, or not. It's more a question of if you will fit in with the other residents and staff and at the very least not increase anyone else's work, not cause drama, and occasionally will come with a smile or joke to help you colleagues along.

Keep in mind, you clinical clerkship grades and your letters are giving them a good impression of how you will be in residency, much better than your orgo grades predict med school performance. The peer interviews (what the current residents think of you) is usually a much bigger component in the interview process than in medical schools, as they are hiring a coworker.

 

[mimelim]

Keep in mind that different program directors look for different things in an application.

I spoke with a MS3 friend who works with a Plastics resident who was choosing students to interview, and he noted that he initially ONLY looks at three things:
Step 1, Research, Medical school, and Letters.

he says that he doesn't even factor in grades/ ECs/class rank unless he needs to resort to some sort of "tie-breaker."
Quite interesting, and shocking. But of course, this probably isn't standard.

That is standard. Nobody cares about pre-clinical grades or class rank. As in nobody. Most programs will consider clinical grades since they are reflective of you in the hospital. Many will cite it as the second most important, after your Step 1. Also, most programs would consider what school you go to less relevant. But, all in all...

Step 1 > Clinical grades > LOR >>> Research > everything else

 

[Bacchus]

.

 

[drizzt3117]

That is standard. Nobody cares about pre-clinical grades or class rank. As in nobody. Most programs will consider clinical grades since they are reflective of you in the hospital. Many will cite it as the second most important, after your Step 1. Also, most programs would consider what school you go to less relevant. But, all in all...

Step 1 > Clinical grades > LOR >>> Research > everything else

I think it's field dependent; I think research is much more impt in some fields; I'd say it's more like step > clinical grades > research > lor = school name/rep > ck > other ecs

 

[Bacchus]

I'm gonna take back what I agreed to above. On field dependency^

This is true. I'll speak for FM. If you're not trying to do FM at a "big name" then there's a lot of leeway in your criteria. As a DO candidate applying to AOA or dually accredited programs, every program has told me thus far they don't care what my board scores are. They're happy I've passed. That suffices. However, I've had great emphasis placed on my LORs and they're always talked about. Dr. So-and-So said this or that and we're glad to hear that. Obviously, research isn't the mainstay of FM so it doesn't get a huge priority on your application. The FM folks seem to be worried most about fit. They've said they can train anyone to be a good resident/physician; however, they can't train someone to have the character necessary for family medicine.

 

[487806]

I think it's field dependent; I think research is much more impt in some fields; I'd say it's more like step > clinical grades > research > lor = school name/rep > ck > other ecs

Wait... how? Most of the med students state that med school doesn't matter as long as you get in somewhere. Why would school name/rep matter? As long as it's not Caribbean?

 

[mimelim]

I think it's field dependent; I think research is much more impt in some fields; I'd say it's more like step > clinical grades > research > lor = school name/rep > ck > other ecs

This is probably true. Surgical subspecialties depend on LOR. I'm pretty sure more PDs call letter writers on people they are most interested in. I certainly was told that on the interview trail.

Not to be too stereotypical, but do you think LOR are less important in rads, more so than other specialties because of the nature of those rotations/the field? I'd say 90% of what ends up in surgery letters is derived from working with the student on the floor and their general procedural aptitude. Kinda hard to get that in rads.

Wait... how? Most of the med students state that med school doesn't matter as long as you get in somewhere. Why would school name/rep matter? As long as it's not Caribbean?

This is based on a couple hours of looking at rank lists last night because of a caribbean vs. US MD debate, but really just me guessing at stuff...

For the vast majority of medical students, where you go makes very little difference when it comes to matching. While residency is competitive, there are just way too many other factors that drastically outweigh where you went. That having been said, it certainly will not hurt to come from a 'big name' and all else being equal, I think we'd all agree that most people will easily take the 'big name' over the others. This is especially true in the smaller fields. Previous students from your school and their associated rep can seriously hurt you in the match. If your school has a rep for sending sub-par students, touted to be average/above average, the fact that you are average makes programs leery about taking you. Kinda goes without saying, but HMS doesn't have that problem.

 

[drizzt3117]

This is probably true. Surgical subspecialties depend on LOR. I'm pretty sure more PDs call letter writers on people they are most interested in. I certainly was told that on the interview trail.

Not to be too stereotypical, but do you think LOR are less important in rads, more so than other specialties because of the nature of those rotations/the field? I'd say 90% of what ends up in surgery letters is derived from working with the student on the floor and their general procedural aptitude. Kinda hard to get that in rads.

I think it's true in almost all the advanced residencies except perhaps neuro. Obviously you're not doing rad onc, managing patients' anesthesia, doing LASIK, etc and getting evaluated on that in med school. Letters are important in services that are wards based and less so in clinic based ones.

This is based on a couple hours of looking at rank lists last night because of a caribbean vs. US MD debate, but really just me guessing at stuff...

For the vast majority of medical students, where you go makes very little difference when it comes to matching. While residency is competitive, there are just way too many other factors that drastically outweigh where you went. That having been said, it certainly will not hurt to come from a 'big name' and all else being equal, I think we'd all agree that most people will easily take the 'big name' over the others. This is especially true in the smaller fields. Previous students from your school and their associated rep can seriously hurt you in the match. If your school has a rep for sending sub-par students, touted to be average/above average, the fact that you are average makes programs leery about taking you. Kinda goes without saying, but HMS doesn't have that problem.

I think if you want to match into top programs in whatever specialty, your school makes a big diff.

 

[johnwandering]

Just a question, how is class rank traditionally viewed?

I have heard that it's important... but considering it's DIRECTLY CORRELATED to first two year grades, if they don't really matter then class rank theoretically shouldn't either.

Was I perhaps misinformed?

 

[aloepathic]

Just a question, how is class rank traditionally viewed?

I have heard that it's important... but considering it's DIRECTLY CORRELATED to first two year grades, if they don't really matter then class rank theoretically shouldn't either.

Was I perhaps misinformed?

class rank is correlated to preclinical grades?



Most of the top schools are entirely pass fail for the first two years, and every AOA chapter I've heard of has preclinical grades as an almost negligible factor in selection (step 1 matters though, so it's sort of linked). It's the clinical years that matter bruh

 

[Dark Magician]

So I'm not doomed to a mediocre residency going to a meh school and having meh ECs in college? I want to start med school right so I can land a great residency, so I wanna make sure I cover all my bases to get into the most competitive ones just in case I want to go into one of those fields.

 

[sommerwing]

So I'm not doomed to a mediocre residency going to a meh school and having meh ECs in college? I want to start med school right so I can land a great residency, so I wanna make sure I cover all my bases to get into the most competitive ones just in case I want to go into one of those fields.

I should stress something because it hasn't really been mentioned directly.

In our first meeting with our med school advisor, he strongly stressed that we should not put anything from UG into the residency application. He said it would send the message that you're "reaching" for ECs that are not entirely relevant anymore to your current experience and training. (kind of like including high school activities into your med school app)

The Only thing that really should be considered is research/publications that you obtained in UG. Those can be a big help, so if you want to get a foot up, you can start in that department. But other than that don't expect any college ECs to really help you. Having been a treasurer in your Frat, the president of your acapella club, or having 1000 volunteer hours at your big name hospital may have been helpful in getting you into medical school, but they won't help you on the other side. Leave those out.

Oh and also, I have heard from nearly every residency interview selector that Personal statements are almost superfluous, and almost strictly used as an occasional "tie-breaker." (very different from the med school app)



People may have generally different ideas, but I am only parroting what I was told by my advisor, my dean of student affairs, and the physicians I've spoken with.

 

[johnwandering]

class rank is correlated to preclinical grades?



Most of the top schools are entirely pass fail for the first two years, and every AOA chapter I've heard of has preclinical grades as an almost negligible factor in selection (step 1 matters though, so it's sort of linked). It's the clinical years that matter bruh

I ask because, unfortunately, my school is not P/F.
It's Honors/HP/P/F over here, which might as well be "graded." And these grades are weightily integrated into our generated class rank.

I understand that clinicals are far more important, but you have to understand that it's a contradiction to say that class rank is important but preclinical grades are not. (considering that you get "grades," and are not associated with AOA)

 

[Gut Shot]

class rank is correlated to preclinical grades?

Yeah, , it is.

Most of the top schools are entirely pass fail for the first two years, and every AOA chapter I've heard of has preclinical grades as an almost negligible factor in selection (step 1 matters though, so it's sort of linked). It's the clinical years that matter bruh

Read AOA's criteria for how members are chosen. At approximately 16 months prior to graduation (about midway through third year) a list is generated with the top quartile of students based on academic performance. That includes preclinical grades. Each school is then given flexibility in assigning which members within that quartile receive AOA status.

 

[Gut Shot]

My friend asked me this question recently, and I was wondering if someone could shed light on this just to ease my curiosity. I know that for med school, things are included only if they happen after high school. Is residency the same way (ie things after graduating college/happen during med school)?

I will echo what some others on this thread have stated, in that ECs are generally quite worthless. It may be tough to accept that after being on the premed treadmill, but it's true. Residency programs want people who are smart, hard working, and can get along with the rest of the team. Nobody gives a flip that you handed out teddy bears to volcano victims in Honduras.

You should still do some ECs while in med school, but not for box-checking purposes. Find a few things you enjoy and spend some time on them. Volunteer at some free clinics, play with children on the oncology ward, do some advocacy, whatever, it will help your sanity and your professional development more than it will help your ERAS application.

One thing I don't believe anyone has mentioned is the Dean's Letter. At the end of M3 your Dean of Student Affairs will write a rec letter for each student in the class. He or she will sit down with everyone's academic transcript, Step scores, and evaluations and bang something out. My Dean relied heavily on narrative evaluations from our clerkships, so screwing up on those could turn your letter into a pile of crap.

Short version: someone with influence is always watching.

 

[MilkIsGood]

I will echo what some others on this thread have stated, in that ECs are generally quite worthless. It may be tough to accept that after being on the premed treadmill, but it's true. Residency programs want people who are smart, hard working, and can get along with the rest of the team. Nobody gives a flip that you handed out teddy bears to volcano victims in Honduras.

You should still do some ECs while in med school, but not for box-checking purposes. Find a few things you enjoy and spend some time on them. Volunteer at some free clinics, play with children on the oncology ward, do some advocacy, whatever, it will help your sanity and your professional development more than it will help your ERAS application.

One thing I don't believe anyone has mentioned is the Dean's Letter. At the end of M3 your Dean of Student Affairs will write a rec letter for each student in the class. He or she will sit down with everyone's academic transcript, Step scores, and evaluations and bang something out. My Dean relied heavily on narrative evaluations from our clerkships, so screwing up on those could turn your letter into a pile of crap.

Short version: someone with influence is always watching.

Ive read that the dean's letter is pretty low on the list of things PD look at?

 

[sommerwing]

Ive read that the dean's letter is pretty low on the list of things PD look at?

I've actually heard the opposite~
The individal LORs and the Dean's Letter are supposed to be extremely important?

 

[PTPoeny]

Ive read that the dean's letter is pretty low on the list of things PD look at?

It varies by program. But there are different parts of the dean's letter, there is the first page which is all subjective stuff from your dean. Then there are direct quotes from your third year evaluations and there are graphs showing what % of your class got each grade. I think the last two parts get looked at to help interpret your transcript.

For what it is worth, I've had 2 residency interview days with a total of 6 interviews and have been asked a grand total of 2 questions about my research and spent the rest of the time talking about things I did in undergrad/high school and my dog.