When do PDs receive a list of their interns/residents?

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If I remember correctly, someone posted that tomorrow 12PM is when programs get their list.

Annoyed that we don't get the same privilege. 🙄
 
I have wondered what the rationale is for giving the list to the programs a day earlier.
 
hot sauce said:
I have wondered what the rationale is for giving the list to the programs a day earlier.
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I think a lot of programs try to make contact with their new interns as soon as possible after the match. I interviewed at some programs that said they send out things like elective rotation request forms, immunization forms, etc. right away after the Match. The extra day probably gives them time to get all of that together.
 
programs find out at 2 pm est on wednesday. they cannot divulge this information to applicants until after 1 pm thursday to maintain the integrity of the match. whats worse is your school knows at 8 am on wednesday but they cant say anything for the same reason.

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/special_part/inst_officials/match_results.html

the link is for the programs finding out at 2 pm, i cant find where i saw the schools find out at 8 am. ill post if i find it again.
 
This might be a totally different situation, but my friend who matched advanced position but not preliminary was told by our dean what program he matched at on Monday. I thought they told you the state only in that situation but she had the actual location. I matched Ophthalmology and my dean told me I matched and the location 24hrs before match day. I sometimes question who has what info and when they get it.
 
fergustsi said:
programs find out at 2 pm est on wednesday. they cannot divulge this information to applicants until after 1 pm thursday to maintain the integrity of the match. whats worse is your school knows at 8 am on wednesday but they cant say anything for the same reason.

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/special_part/inst_officials/match_results.html

the link is for the programs finding out at 2 pm, i cant find where i saw the schools find out at 8 am. ill post if i find it again.
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Who at the school would know?
Honestly, I don't understand the "integrity" thing when it's done and the match has occurred... not like anyone can "legally" back out of a contract since it'd be a violation and you risk destroying your young future.

I'm a DO, and I don't have a match ceremony. I'd like to know now rather than wait 1pm tomorrow and suffer through day-dreaming while on AM rounds wondering if I got my top 4.
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
Who at the school would know?
Honestly, I don't understand the "integrity" thing when it's done and the match has occurred... not like anyone can "legally" back out of a contract since it'd be a violation and you risk destroying your young future.

I'm a DO, and I don't have a match ceremony. I'd like to know now rather than wait 1pm tomorrow and suffer through day-dreaming while on AM rounds wondering if I got my top 4.
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it would be whoever coordinates the match stuff at your school.

here is the link from the nrmp about schools finding out at 8 am est today vs us tomorrow at 1 pm.

http://www.nrmp.org/annualmeeting2010.pdf

slide 17
 
I cannot understand why everyone except the applicants finds out earlier. What is the point of making us wait when our deans, the programs, half the secretaries at the school all know? That's one thing I prefer about the DO match. You don't get a "Hey you matched, we'll tell you were in 3 days" email, you find out if and where in the same email.
 
Colbert said:
I cannot understand why everyone except the applicants finds out earlier. What is the point of making us wait when our deans, the programs, half the secretaries at the school all know? That's one thing I prefer about the DO match. You don't get a "Hey you matched, we'll tell you were in 3 days" email, you find out if and where in the same email.
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Agreed. As it should be.

This is one aspect of the MD tradition I have to do a *face palm* over.
 
Smpco02 said:
This might be a totally different situation, but my friend who matched advanced position but not preliminary was told by our dean what program he matched at on Monday. I thought they told you the state only in that situation but she had the actual location. I matched Ophthalmology and my dean told me I matched and the location 24hrs before match day. I sometimes question who has what info and when they get it.
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I think the Dean's offices at schools find out on Monday. NRMP likes to watch us squirm, haha.
 
What is Match Results By Ranked Applicant? Is that the one where programs find out where everyone they RANKED matched at?

Also, what is the Applicant Choices By Specialty that the school gets to see? Is that our ROL basically?
 
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Doctor4Life1769 said:
School wouldn't tell me... lame.
Don't understand this rule at all...
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ppl are still matching as of today and maybe even tomorrow. the rule is there i'm guessing to allow everyone to find out at the same time and celebrate with their entire class (instead of not celebrating at all or celebrating after the fact).

i'm a DO as well and we don't have a match ceremony either. however, the NRMP is not the DO match and just because we don't have a ceremony etc does not mean that we are exempt from the rule, while we are essentially playing in their court. trust me, these 3 days have been the longest and most agonizing but that doesn't mean i should hastily request a breach in NRMP regulations or complain.
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
Agreed. As it should be.

This is one aspect of the MD tradition I have to do a *face palm* over.
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See thread on why physicians allow this organization so much power. They act like we are children. It's really pretty ridiculous that you don't find out location on Monday. It makes absolutely NO difference.


But, they are all about "integrity, professionalism, and ethics".

At least our classmates that scrambled know where they are going. Ha.
 
MJB said:
At least our classmates that scrambled know where they are going. Ha.
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Probably the most insensitive comment I have seen all day. The scramble sucks. It's completely miserable, even if you get a spot. I expect that anyone who actually went in the scramble would happily trade that experience for waiting an extra 3 days to find out where they matched.

Are we really arguing about an extra 3 day delay? Would your life really be that much better if you found out today?
 
aProgDirector said:
Would your life really be that much better if you found out today?
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YES! :laugh:

No seriously, I tried to keep my calm and was super ecstatic after finding out I had matched... but, the wait truly is killing me, especially today. I'm having a really bad case of acid reflux and gastritis from these nerves. However, if you wish to write me some protonix and xanax, then I might not care as much ... even being on a fairly busy medicine service isn't helping me keep my mind off this, especially with everyone at the hospital asking me...

Do they seriously think that people will band together with all their matches and someone figure out which programs are scrambling in whatever specialty? Give me a break, this is all a buncha shenanigans, as has been this whole application season...
 
aProgDirector said:
Probably the most insensitive comment I have seen all day. The scramble sucks. It's completely miserable, even if you get a spot. I expect that anyone who actually went in the scramble would happily trade that experience for waiting an extra 3 days to find out where they matched.

Are we really arguing about an extra 3 day delay? Would your life really be that much better if you found out today?
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Well, I believe you likely took my comment the wrong way. It's just another example of the hypocrisy surrounding this whole process.


And no, I don't really care about the 3 days. I just don't see the point of it. It would have absolutely NO impact on the scramble or the match's "integrity".

The way the whole thing is run is just a farce, imo. Believe me, I know the scramble sucks. Imagine a world where you could go out, interview, get an offer and accept a job without some governing body charging you money to dictate when and how you can communicate with potential employers. You know...freedom.

Oh wait, I've worked in that type of environment too. It works pretty well.
 
well as someone who did get a spot through the scramble life is pretty decent right now... or would have been if I hadn't been taking CS for the second time today, and realizing my ability to start in July is dependent how I did on an entirely subjective test. Trust me, I got your sob story beat.

/I wonder if my school will let me bring alcohol to match day.
 
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So what is the "Applicant Choices By Specialty" report that schools got today? Is that basically our ROLs?
 
myPsychAlt said:
well as someone who did get a spot through the scramble life is pretty decent right now... or would have been if I hadn't been taking CS for the second time today, and realizing my ability to start in July is dependent how I did on an entirely subjective test. Trust me, I got your sob story beat.
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Yeah, the scramble sucks, no doubt. I'm glad you found a spot!

However, the CS part was on you though. You didn't have to reschedule this late in the game (especially match week), and you DO have multiple testing sites as well, unlike us.
 
Dermologue said:
So what is the "Applicant Choices By Specialty" report that schools got today? Is that basically our ROLs?
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They get where we matched and which specialty.
Unfortunately, they won't tell you.

I don't even know why my advisor even bothered to ask me, I'm sure he knows.
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
Yeah, the scramble sucks, no doubt. I'm glad you found a spot!

However, the CS part was on you though. You didn't have to reschedule this late in the game (especially match week), and you DO have multiple testing sites as well, unlike us.
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well this was the first spot I could get. I took the thing in late January. Unfortunately being one of 3% of people wasn't something I was expecting.

edit: yeah, i realize my comment sounded insensitive to those who couldn't get spots. sorry. 🙁
 
myPsychAlt said:
well this was the first spot I could get. I took the thing in late January. Unfortunately being one of 3% of people wasn't something I was expecting.
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Again, your decision to take the CS in late January.

I took mine in July... fully aware that I could fail and still be able to take it by Dec or Jan with plenty of time to get my result before graduation..
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
They get where we matched and which specialty.
Unfortunately, they won't tell you.

I don't even know why my advisor even bothered to ask me, I'm sure he knows.
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No...That's not what I meant. I know they find out where you matched and what you matched...In the Match schedule it says they also get a separate report titled, "Applicant Choices By Specialty." I think it's referring to our ROLs but maybe someone knows.
 
MJB said:
Well, I believe you likely took my comment the wrong way. It's just another example of the hypocrisy surrounding this whole process.
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I don't see any other way to take it. And I don't see my interpretation of your statement as hypocritical.


And no, I don't really care about the 3 days. I just don't see the point of it. It would have absolutely NO impact on the scramble or the match's "integrity".
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No argument here. As I said, they could tell those who didn't match 24 hours in advance (which seems like a reasonable thing to do, so they can prepare), and then the next day release all of the data -- programs would know whom they matched, applicants would know where they matched, and everyone would know which programs were unfilled. There are several related threads, and I stated all of this elsewhere. The only reason for the 3 day delay is to allow those who did not match to attempt to scramble, and if successful get an envelope at a match ceremony just like everyone else. Without the delay, dean's offices would be focused on scramblers so likely no match ceremony. That's it. Whether that's worth a 3 day delay, I have no idea. You matched, so perhaps it's meaningless to you. Perhaps those that didn't match would disagree. Perhaps not.

Imagine a world where you could go out, interview, get an offer and accept a job without some governing body charging you money to dictate when and how you can communicate with potential employers. You know...freedom.

Oh wait, I've worked in that type of environment too. It works pretty well.
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Except that the residency job market is different. The match has been in place so long, it's impossible/difficult to really remember what it was like beforehand -- and honestly the world has changed in so many ways it wouldn't be comparable anyway. But, the medical specialties were not in a match just a few years ago, and the fellowship application process was just as you said -- you simply applied and found a spot.

Here's what happened:

Some fields were not competitive. In those fields, it was no problem. There were often more spots than applicants, and you could simply apply and find a job. Endocrine and nephrology were like this.

Some fields were very competitive, like GI. Residents would apply to programs. Programs would offer interviews. And then the nightmare began.

There were often several interview days to choose from. However, programs used a rolling admission process. It was not uncommon for them to fill all positions before the last interview day. Hence, everyone knew that you needed to go on the first (or second) interview or you simply were not going to get a spot. So, the insanity of people trying to swap their workshifts at the last moment to get to interviews starts.

Then, you go on your first interview. They like you, and offer you a job. Happened to one of my chief residents. Wasn't his first choice -- his first choice was our program, but their interview wasn't for another 4 weeks. The program he was interviewing at expected an answer before he left. Basically, they put a contract on the table and told him it was his to sign, or they were revoking it. Take it or leave it.

He convinced them that he needed to speak with his wife about moving. They were nice and gave him 24 hours. He came back, spoke to our program. They interviewed him the next day, offered him a spot which he took. That was their last spot for that year (the others were for research residents). So, my program contacted everyone they had invited for an interview, and told them not to bother coming anymore because there were no more slots. This in turn caused each of those people (including some of my own residents) to reschedule all of the rest of their interviews even earlier, worried that the same thing would happen. So, each year the application process moved 2 weeks earlier as each program tried to sign the "best" applicants.

It was an absolute nightmare.

England tried a residency application process without a match a few years ago. What happened was that a small number of applicants got a bunch of offers, while most applicants got nothing. It took many rounds of offers/acceptances before many started getting an offer. And, people felt forced into taking spots that they weren't excited about but didn't want to "hope" for a better offer to come along.

If you allow people to hold several offers at a time (which would allow people to weigh offers as they come in), then you have a similar problem to England's. Positions get "tied up" as people hold onto a spot hoping for something better, and you'd never really know when to actually sign a contract (vs wait to hope something better comes along). Or, programs will simply insist that you sign right away.

So there is a price for your freedom. The GI match was completely free, and it was the Wild West. It was really ugly.

Is the match perfect? Of course not. Could it be improved? I think so. Should it be abandoned? Not until someone shows me another system that wouldn't be a nightmare.
 
Dermologue said:
No...That's not what I meant. I know they find out where you matched and what you matched...In the Match schedule it says they also get a separate report titled, "Applicant Choices By Specialty." I think it's referring to our ROLs but maybe someone knows.
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No one but you can see your ROL. This is clearly posted on the NRMP website.

The report you are referring to is here, table 13. I have no idea why this would be of use to Dean's. It's all released after the match. (Note: the link is to LAST year's data, not this year which will be released next week)

Post a link to the "match schedule" to which you are referring, as I can't find anything which suggests that Dean's offices get any special reports.
 
aProgDirector said:
No one but you can see your ROL. This is clearly posted on the NRMP website.

The report you are referring to is here, table 13. I have no idea why this would be of use to Dean's. It's all released after the match. (Note: the link is to LAST year's data, not this year which will be released next week)

Post a link to the "match schedule" to which you are referring, as I can't find anything which suggests that Dean's offices get any special reports.
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http://www.nrmp.org/soap.pdf
Second to last page, where it lists the info for Wednesday of Match Week.
 
Thanks. I knew I had seen it somewhere. The link I provided is the table they get. It's not part of the "Advanced data tables" which I have access to, but is released to the public next week. Again, it has NOTHING to do with your rank list. Only you know how far down your list you went, unless you've told other people.
 
to aProgDirector: your explanation of why the match exists is the best anecdote illustrating why this process is so important that I have even read. I actually think the match is great, though the "all or nothing" nature of being assigned to one program does feel foreign versus other fields. But I gladly would accept this system versus the horrible "permanent scramble" for positions that seems to have defined medicine in the past. Good riddance!
 
aprog,

I wasn't saying you were being hypocritical. Merely the NRMP, again.


I do appreciate your frank discussion of the topic, and what you say makes a ton of sense.

The main source of my frustration with the process is the problem of dual accredited programs and 2 matches...and that the whole thing just feels dirty. I equate the whole process to what it's like to buy a used car, and that's not a good thing.

Honestly, I'd prefer the open market where you apply, interview, get offered, and accept. But, that's me. This process just allows the unethical folks to be even more unethical. At least in the old days when people were full they would quit interviewing people for spots.
 
metallo said:
I think a lot of programs try to make contact with their new interns as soon as possible after the match. I interviewed at some programs that said they send out things like elective rotation request forms, immunization forms, etc. right away after the Match. The extra day probably gives them time to get all of that together.
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I still find it kind of irritating that everyone else gets to know before me. Internship is still several months away do the programs really need that extra day? I'm sure I'll be over it after I open the envelope tomorrow but right now I'm nervous and cranky.
 
Meh, if I had wanted something like GI, I would go anywhere and wouldn't care if it was UCSF or Mass Gen... or...some community program. GI is GI, you're board certified and can practice anywhere and make the same money. All this "let me hoard acceptances" thing is ridiculous.

However, I know most people in medicine aren't like that...
 
Wow...sucks that next year in the "SOAP" or whatever, you still find out IF you matched on Monday....but now Match Day and finding out WHERE was pushed back to Friday!! Can't imagine waiting another day!
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
Meh, if I had wanted something like GI, I would go anywhere and wouldn't care if it was UCSF or Mass Gen... or...some community program. GI is GI, you're board certified and can practice anywhere and make the same money. All this "let me hoard acceptances" thing is ridiculous.

However, I know most people in medicine aren't like that...
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Some people want to be in academic medicine though and not all GI programs can offer the appropriate resources to launch their fellows into research careers. The fellowship match makes sense for those interested in the research/academic pathway but you're probably right that for those more clinically oriented there isn't a whole lot of difference between programs.
 
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