When do you plan on retiring?

[F0nzie]

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How do you envision your retirement? Work hard now and retire early? Retire at 66? Reduce hours? Keep working until you kick the pail?

I have been thinking about this myself and I can't decide. I am leaning towards reduced hours and never retiring.


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[randomdoc1]

Likewise. Assuming I'm not demented. I have a FH of people living well into their 90's.

 

[cookymonster]

I can't imagine doing this forever. I will likely reduce hours in a couple of years, then hopefully use that extra time to figure out what I want to "retire to." Then retire fully sometime in my 40's.

 

[Trismegistus4]

I can't imagine having the financial means to sleep in every day and putter around the house in my PJs sipping coffee, but instead choosing to set an alarm clock and go into an office.

But I just saw on online interview with Jack Bogle saying that stock market returns from now on are going to be much lower than they have been historically, so maybe never.

 

[wolfvgang22]

I hope to reduce my hours to half time by age 55 and then continue for another 15 to 20 years, with considerably lower tolerance for institutional bull ****.

 

[F0nzie]

I can't imagine having the financial means to sleep in every day and putter around the house in my PJs sipping coffee, but instead choosing to set an alarm clock and go into an office.

But I just saw on online interview with Jack Bogle saying that stock market returns from now on are going to be much lower than they have been historically, so maybe never.

We have been in a bull market since 2009. What goes up must come down. [emoji51]


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[Trismegistus4]

We have been in a bull market since 2009. What goes up must come down. [emoji51]


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I agree, but Bogle's predictions weren't just based on the most recent bull market. He believes we're never again going to see the kind of economic growth we had throughout the twentieth century. Other people have made similar predictions, based on the idea that such growth was driven by cheap energy, which is supposedly now coming to an end. Who knows whether that will turn out to be true or not, but if it does, it's depressing. I always wanted to attain true independent means--i.e., sufficient wealth to live indefinitely off of passive income like interest and rents--and it's sad to think that by a combination of being a nontrad, not going into a super-high-paying field, and changes in the economy, I'll never get there, and instead be like every other schmo, for whom retirement means spending down principal.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Either cut back at 68 or so and go until I feel like it, or ditch it all tomorrow.
Can't decide...

 

[Armadillos]

I feel like it's kind of risky to completely retire in your early 60s these days. Who knows what advances there will be in next 20 years that could push someone who is 55 today to end up being 75 and suddenly be looking at a legitimate life expectancy of 105. Seems like it would be good to keep yourself in the game working minimally part time or something. That being said, absolutely no reason to work yourself to the bone and then die 5 years after you retire.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I fail to quit every day. I actually like my job and I also like money. If it stops being fun, I'm out of here.

 

[Shikima]

If I could be done tomorrow, I would.

 

[erg923]

If I could be done tomorrow, I would.

Why does this come to mind when i hear you say this?

 

[Ahamis]

I keep thinking to myself if I don't have kids I will be able to retire earlier.
Kids add many years of extra work in your career.
🙁

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I keep thinking to myself if I don't have kids I will be able to retire earlier.
Kids add many years of extra work in your career.
🙁

Tell me about it...

At current rate of progress, youngest graduates college just after my 65th birthday...

 

[Mad Jack]

How do you envision your retirement? Work hard now and retire early? Retire at 66? Reduce hours? Keep working until you kick the pail?

I have been thinking about this myself and I can't decide. I am leaning towards reduced hours and never retiring.


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Retirement isn't necessarily when you don't work, it's when you don't need to work beyond what work you do for self-satisfaction.

 

[northernpsy]

I'm trying to be aggressive about socking away money for retirement now in the hope that I can stop working full time at a reasonably young age. I would love to be able to get out of the full time rat race by 55 or so. By then, my kids will be pretty much grown and I can use the time I am not spending at work on doing fun stuff like traveling.

I could definitely see doing one day a week teaching or some light outpatient work just to stay in the game and be part of the community, though. Even though there are few days when I actually look forward to going to work, there is a part of me that can't picture totally giving up my identity as a doctor. It would seem weird and sad to see a patient knowing that it was last time I would EVER see a patient.

 

[SomeDoc]

The plan is to get to a point where I have saved enough so that I can live comfortably off interest. This includes saving heavily, with a plan of paying off the home in about eight years- it's a guaranteed negative return versus putting the same funds into an individual taxable account with no guarantees. I'll deal with issues of market fluctuations and dollar cost averaging after having the security of a paid mortgage. The plan is to do this while maxing out tax advantaged accounts. Any excess will probably go into 529s which are low priority- kids can take loans out for college, whereas you can't take a loan for retirement.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Retirement isn't necessarily when you don't work, it's when you don't need to work beyond what work you do for self-satisfaction.

All these people who are working for self-satisfaction despite not needing the money are free to give me their excess money, so I can achieve self-satisfaction by staying home and puttering around the house.

 

[Mad Jack]

All these people who are working for self-satisfaction despite not needing the money are free to give me their excess money, so I can achieve self-satisfaction by staying home and puttering around the house.

I used to have a professor that had basically made enough money to never work again from other endeavors. He didn't even cash the school's checks, and I was like... But I could use that money... Turn it into a scholarship or something...

 

[F0nzie]

I agree, but Bogle's predictions weren't just based on the most recent bull market. He believes we're never again going to see the kind of economic growth we had throughout the twentieth century. Other people have made similar predictions, based on the idea that such growth was driven by cheap energy, which is supposedly now coming to an end. Who knows whether that will turn out to be true or not, but if it does, it's depressing. I always wanted to attain true independent means--i.e., sufficient wealth to live indefinitely off of passive income like interest and rents--and it's sad to think that by a combination of being a nontrad, not going into a super-high-paying field, and changes in the economy, I'll never get there, and instead be like every other schmo, for whom retirement means spending down principal.

That's interesting. Hopefully improvements in solar will reduce energy costs and lower the demand for fossil fuels.


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[DisorderedDoc417]

.

 

[nexus73]

I'm retiring as soon as my powerball investments pay off

 

[postbacpremed87]

I'm retiring as soon as my powerball investments pay off

Isn't that amazing? The right 6 numbers sets you free.

 

[FlowRate]

I recognize that I need some degree of pseudo-extrensic motivation to be productive, whether that be a research deadline, meetings with people, but work is the most convenient and regular source of that motivation. Working from home during my research year was certainly a learning experience; started off with working an 80 hour week one week (enjoyed what I was doing) and then goofing off for another week before I finally settled into a more regular routine. Anyway, that informs my future vision of retirement because I think I would benefit from having a reason to get up at a reasonably early hour 4-5 days a week, even if it's just to work for 4-5 hours. So I don't currently plan on ever fully retiring.

As for how much I'll be able to cut back, that's up to my market and how much I can invest in the first 10 years out.

 

[Psychotic]

If I am still working full time at age 60, something went terribly wrong...

 

[PistolPete]

I plan to work full time until age 55-56, then cut hours back a bit to 3/4 time or 1/2 time, then retire at 60. We shall see how that pans out in the future.

 

[Jules A]

It makes me sad to see the once amazing psychiatrists who have outlasted their relevance and refuse to pass the baton. Several became down right wifty and their prescribing was atrocious. I want to leave while I'm still on top of my game both professionally and personally.

If my health holds out the plan is to retire at 62. We've lived fairly simply, paid off mortgages early, max out retirement accounts and have several investment properties. I'm hoping to have at least a decade of modest travel and relaxing prior to croaking, offing myself or going to the cheapest nursing home with the worst care possible to hasten my death.

 

[PsyDr]

I agree, but Bogle's predictions weren't just based on the most recent bull market. He believes we're never again going to see the kind of economic growth we had throughout the twentieth century. Other people have made similar predictions, based on the idea that such growth was driven by cheap energy, which is supposedly now coming to an end. Who knows whether that will turn out to be true or not, but if it does, it's depressing. I always wanted to attain true independent means--i.e., sufficient wealth to live indefinitely off of passive income like interest and rents--and it's sad to think that by a combination of being a nontrad, not going into a super-high-paying field, and changes in the economy, I'll never get there, and instead be like every other schmo, for whom retirement means spending down principal.

Bogle's ideas are based upon the status quo continuing and is limited to the equity markets. Energy costs matters more in physical product production and delivery than in more modern fields. Comparing the business model of Mattel to Google or HFT equities is not great practice. Even if it were, there are macroeconomic models for this stuff which would just mean moving assets from equity securities to debt securities and other investments.

 

[prominence]

I'm hoping to have at least a decade of modest travel and relaxing prior to croaking, offing myself or going to the cheapest nursing home with the worst care possible to hasten my death.

Sad to hear a psychiatrist joke about suicide like that, smh

 

[Shikima]

Sad to hear a psychiatrist joke about suicide like that, smh

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Humor is considered a mature defense last time I checked. 🙄

 

[Jules A]

Fonzie my sincerest apologies for the hijack. Being adept at managing finances and having a retirement plan are are crucial in my opinion.

Prominence, truly sorry to have offended you and fwiw if you had PM'd me I would have removed it.

 

[witzelsucht]

Sad to hear a psychiatrist joke about suicide like that, smh

when med students say "why do i need to do 4 weeks in the ICU if im doing psych!?"...this is why. no thanks.

 

[PikminOC]

I can't imagine doing this forever. I will likely reduce hours in a couple of years, then hopefully use that extra time to figure out what I want to "retire to." Then retire fully sometime in my 40's.

What do you do? You finish residency at 30 or so. So in less that 20 years youre retired? I gotta get on your train unless its a massive trust fund..

 

[cookymonster]

What do you do? You finish residency at 30 or so. So in less that 20 years youre retired? I gotta get on your train unless its a massive trust fund..

No titanic trust fund. My income is good but not astronomical. Guess I just know how to save and invest from reading whitecoatinvestor.com all these years. There's no reason most psychiatrists (exceptions being those with large families, educational debt, health issues) can't have a seven-figure net worth within ten years of finishing residency.

 

[PikminOC]

No titanic trust fund. My income is good but not astronomical. Guess I just know how to save and invest from reading whitecoatinvestor.com all these years. There's no reason most psychiatrists (exceptions being those with large families, educational debt, health issues) can't have a seven-figure net worth within ten years of finishing residency.

Thank you for your response.
Is a seven figure net worth something you can retire on? I dont think so.
Many physicians have educational debt...

 

[Trismegistus4]

At one of the places where I did locums work, the administrator tried to entice me to stay on permanently by saying I could make $450k per year. But that was a busy inpatient unit in an undesirable locale, and would have entailed working every other weekend. That life isn't for me, but if you're a workaholic, you could make $9 million in 20 years. Of course Uncle Sam takes a big chunk of that, but save and invest aggressively in the early years, and thanks to the power of compound interest you'd be in good shape in 20 years.

 

[PikminOC]

At one of the places where I did locums work, the administrator tried to entice me to stay on permanently by saying I could make $450k per year. But that was a busy inpatient unit in an undesirable locale, and would have entailed working every other weekend. That life isn't for me, but if you're a workaholic, you could make $9 million in 20 years. Of course Uncle Sam takes a big chunk of that, but save and invest aggressively in the early years, and thanks to the power of compound interest you'd be in good shape in 20 years.

Theres compound interest still? For a decade prime interest has been zero.
Stock market is unreliable.

 

[Shikima]

Thank you for your response.
Is a seven figure net worth something you can retire on? I dont think so.
Many physicians have educational debt...

I was just going to say the same thing.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Theres compound interest still? For a decade prime interest has been zero.
Stock market is unreliable.

I'm certainly a financially naive person, but I'm not aware of any financial advisers or experts who advise NOT investing in the stock market when you've got a 20 year time frame.

The geometric mean of the S&P 500 annual return over the past 20 years is 15.6%.

 

[sazerac]

Theres compound interest still? For a decade prime interest has been zero.
Stock market is unreliable.

No. Over the course of 20 years the stock market is incredibly reliable, and it's pretty much the only passive option (e.g. not taking on a second job as a landlord) to beat inflation and build that nest egg.

The blogosphere is full of people who run the numbers every which way, and their results are published in places like boggleheads, physician on fire, early retirement now, etc. The opportunity cost of NOT being in the market is compounding as well.

Come join us / ask questions in the Finance & Investment sub forum on SDN.

To answer the OP's question, I don't plan on retiring from psychiatry. I'll work until I am at least 70. I already tried retirement when I was younger and able to enjoy it. Had a great time, saw the world from a pair of skis and the deck of a boat and stuff, and I have no regrets. But now I'd rather be a psychiatrist.

 

[PikminOC]

No. Over the course of 20 years the stock market is incredibly reliable, and it's pretty much the only passive option (e.g. not taking on a second job as a landlord) to beat inflation and build that nest egg.

The blogosphere is full of people who run the numbers every which way, and their results are published in places like boggleheads, physician on fire, early retirement now, etc. The opportunity cost of NOT being in the market is compounding as well.

Come join us / ask questions in the Finance & Investment sub forum on SDN.

To answer the OP's question, I don't plan on retiring from psychiatry. I'll work until I am at least 70. I already tried retirement when I was younger and able to enjoy it. Had a great time, saw the world from a pair of skis and the deck of a boat and stuff, and I have no regrets. But now I'd rather be a psychiatrist.

Thanks for the info regarding the forum.
Many docs i know with money in stocks were unable to retire and are still working at an advanced age.

 

[PikminOC]

I'm certainly a financially naive person, but I'm not aware of any financial advisers or experts who advise NOT investing in the stock market when you've got a 20 year time frame.

The geometric mean of the S&P 500 annual return over the past 20 years is 15.6%.

Some advisers make a commission off every transaction

 

[Trismegistus4]

Some advisers make a commission off every transaction

I'm not talking about the "financial advisors" you hire to manage your money. I'm talking about pundits and authors, people like Jack Bogle or the guys behind Motley Fool or the White Coat Investor.

I just crunched some more numbers since I already had the historical annual S&P 500 returns in a spreadsheet. If you'd put $100k a year away into an S&P 500 index fund (a lot, but feasible if you took that $450k/year job) starting in 1987, at the end of 2016 you'd have over $15 million.

 

[cookymonster]

Thank you for your response.
Is a seven figure net worth something you can retire on? I dont think so.
Many physicians have educational debt...

I was just pointing out what you could accumulate in ten years. If you can do that in ten years, imagine what you can build up in twenty years.
But if you're single, why can't you retire on a seven figure net worth? On a 3% withdrawal rate, which is very conservative, that's $2750 a month. And that doesn't even count what we get from Social Security. Our patients get by on disability checks worth one third of that.
I'd prefer to work longer to enjoy a higher standard of living (and that probably goes for most of us), but if you hate practicing medicine enough to live like a resident forever, punching out with $1 million is very doable.

 

[PikminOC]

I was just pointing out what you could accumulate in ten years. If you can do that in ten years, imagine what you can build up in twenty years.
But if you're single, why can't you retire on a seven figure net worth? On a 3% withdrawal rate, which is very conservative, that's $2750 a month. And that doesn't even count what we get from Social Security. Our patients get by on disability checks worth one third of that.
I'd prefer to work longer to enjoy a higher standard of living (and that probably goes for most of us), but if you hate practicing medicine enough to live like a resident forever, punching out with $1 million is very doable.

People live a long time. Retire at 49 and you can live for 30 or 40 more years. How much money do you need for that?

 

[st2205]

People live a long time. Retire at 49 and you can live for 30 or 40 more years. How much money do you need for that?

Well with you suggesting you need 8 figures to retire, then even if you've got the minimum 8 figures and 1% interest, then you live off the $100k/yr interest.

 

[cookymonster]

People live a long time. Retire at 49 and you can live for 30 or 40 more years. How much money do you need for that?

30x annual expenses is probably enough, assuming you're in a reasonable investment allocation.

 

[Jules A]

30x annual expenses is probably enough, assuming you're in a reasonable investment allocation.

I'm aiming for 25x to retire at 62. With only a spouse who can take care of himself I plan to hopefully spend it all. What I have seen even with those who were extremely active is that as we age our circle becomes notably smaller. Even people who loved traveling become more comfortable at home in later years. The snowbirds eventually sell their home up north and stay in FL etc. This will likely reduce annual expenses in the last decade.

I wish I could find and credit the poster who described rental properties as a part-time job because that is a perfect description. I'm not as knowledgeable or comfortable with the stock market, have about 25% of my assets there, and have always loved not only how concrete real estate is but the return on my investments. Unfortunately it does require time, although in my experience that hasn't been excessive and would be even less if I paid a management company. During the years when securing a tenant I'd estimate less than 40 actual hours of my actual time and maybe 10 hours in years when I have the same tenant. There are the expenses because the repairs and upkeep are never ending. My rental income per property right now averages $18,000 a year which goes toward mortgages and builds equity so not bad for the amount of time and money I have invested.

Has anyone tried the crowd funding real estate investing thing? Its interesting and I like that at least according to White Coat Investor the amount to buy in isn't huge so I can justify taking a loss if things don't work out.

 

[NickNaylor]

My goal is to be able to retire - if I want to - by the time I'm in my 50s. I don't think that I will actually want to do that, but I'd at least like to have the ability to do so if I wanted to. More realistically, I think it's more likely that I will simply transition to doing non-medical work. I'm very interested in healthcare administration and academia, so transitioning to a non-clinical role in these areas is something I may want to try and do as I get older and/or if clinical work becomes too much of a beatdown.

I enjoy working too much (right now at least) to see myself wanting to chillax for any long periods of time. I think I will always be doing some kind of work as long as I'm physically and mentally able. But I don't see myself doing clinical medicine for the entirety of my life.