When is it adviseable to pick a DO over MD acceptance?

[ConfusedAboutEverything]

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The MD school I was accepted to off the waitlist—I have no idea how, but my MCAT sucks (505). At the interview, the students are at a much higher professional and intellectual level than I am and I felt intimidated by the student body. They have team based learning which I absolutely despise but they also grade you based on your participation in group conversations too (I’m a slow thinker and very shy and intimidated by the students—this isn’t going to go well). Also classes are mandatory here. Considering the average MCAT here, the students are going to be better test takers and in my experience: professors make exams harder when the students are smarter and score well. So I’m not sure I’m going to pass my courses here since this is beyond my pay grade. My MCAT (and my practice MCAT scores) are discouraging and I really tried to do well on that exam...this school’s average MCAT is 512, I am below the 10% line on MCAT according to MSAR.

The DO school, I’ve fell in love with and until yesterday I thought I was going to be a DO and had planned on going to this school since I haven’t gotten an MD acceptance until yesterday. My average MCAT is the schools average MCAT and the students were chiller and there was no team based learning (traditional curriculum). I feel like I can do better here because of the curriculum that I like and am familiar with. They even give you comprehensive lecture notes and there is no textbook readings. The students (who are at my level on average) do not feel overburdened by lecture and actually have a lot of time to do step studying outside of lecture (which is not mandatory—literally lecture notes have everything you need to know and the lectures are recorded). The only problem is it is a DO school. If that weren’t the case, it would’ve been a no brainer.

I know people will say DO limits your choices, but so is failing your classes at a mid tier MD program because the students are at a higher level than you prompting professors to make exams harder and the students are more outgoing than you so will hog the team based learning participation grade (it literally happened during my interview—we had a component of team discussions we’re graded at, and I could not participate much because of shyness and slower thinking).

But, I don’t think I’ll do well in the MD program. Yes, the information we study will be the same, but how it will be tested won’t be—and that scares me. The DO school is my comfort zone and I outperform in my comfort zone.

 

[acciobutterbeer]

Do you know what field you want to go in yet? If not, are you okay with likely going primary care?

Many schools have resources to help students are struggling. Med schools don’t want students to fail—they’ll work with you to get the help you need, if you struggle. I know people who have had lower MCAT scores than their classmates but who perform really well on exams.

Ultimately, you’re going into possibly one of the toughest challenges in your life. You want to be happy and try to enjoy it. If you feel like you’d be unhappy at the MD school and are okay with likely going into primary care, do that will make you happy. Just remember... you’ve made it this far and both schools chose you for a reason!

 

[Rachapkis]

The MD school that admitted you thought you would be successful or they would not have admitted you. The main issue I see is your confidence. Believe in yourself—even when it gets tough—and you will graduate with an MD degree. Very few people fail out of medical school. I would step up to the school, talk to your professors when you’re having problems, and believe that you can achieve. Use the study systems (ANKI, etc.) that others use and see what works for you. Imposter syndrome is real. Don’t give into it.

 

[LizzyM]

It is interesting that people so often speak of "fit" but the minute the decision is between MD or DO, the discussion short-circuits into a foregone conclusion.

I have to assume that you preferred the MD school on some level or you would have withdrawn your name from the waitlist. Now you have the decision to make and it seems to me that you are looking for permission to choose the school where you think you will do well over the one where you did not get a good vibe on interview day.

Where are you going to thrive? Where are you going to do your best work, get your best board scores, make life-long friends and prepare for a fulfilling career? Only you can answer that question and I'm giving you permission to make that decision without regard to the initials that will follow your name but based on what feels right for you.

 

[Cornfed101]

Where are you going to thrive? Where are you going to do your best work, get your best board scores, make life-long friends and prepare for a fulfilling career? Only you can answer that question and I'm giving you permission to make that decision without regard to the initials that will follow your name but based on what feels right for you.

^this, beautifully said. It’s not about the school. It’s about YOU!

 

[Med Ed]

I know people will say DO limits your choices, but so is failing your classes at a mid tier MD program because the students are at a higher level than you prompting professors to make exams harder and the students are more outgoing than you so will hog the team based learning participation grade (it literally happened during my interview—we had a component of team discussions we’re graded at, and I could not participate much because of shyness and slower thinking).

Good thing they administer a different version of Step 1 to DO students, and that residencies will be more forgiving of your shyness and slower thinking because you come from an osteopathic program.

But, I don’t think I’ll do well in the MD program. Yes, the information we study will be the same, but how it will be tested won’t be—and that scares me. The DO school is my comfort zone and I outperform in my comfort zone.

No, your comfort zone lets you grow as little as possible while still getting by. For awhile, at least.

 

[Goro]

Good thing they administer a different version of Step 1 to DO students, and that residencies will be more forgiving of your shyness and slower thinking because you come from an osteopathic program.

Public service notice, OP. The wise Med Ed is being sarcastic, which travels poorly over the electrons.

Heed his words very carefully.

 

[AnMDtoB]

The MD school that admitted you thought you would be successful or they would not have admitted you. The main issue I see is your confidence. Believe in yourself—even when it gets tough—and you will graduate with an MD degree. Very few people fail out of medical school. I would step up to the school, talk to your professors when you’re having problems, and believe that you can achieve. Use the study systems (ANKI, etc.) that others use and see what works for you. Imposter syndrome is real. Don’t give into it.

This. I feel like your OP was asking for permission & justification for choosing your DO school over MD. Sure, there are many reasons why someone might choose one over the other, but because you're intimidated is just not a good reason. That school had hundreds (probably thousands) of really qualified applicants and the adcom picked YOU because they believe that you will be among the best students who applied to take advantage of the opportunity! If you want to choose the DO school, fine, but choose it because it's what you want not because you're afraid of something else (DO is plenty hard too, you know!)

Also, the more you think negative thoughts about yourself, your skills, and your ability to succeed, the truer they will become (whether or not you choose MD or DO!) Would be happy to recommend some really good sports psych/mental management books over PM if you like

 

[Catalystik]

the more you think negative thoughts about yourself, your skills, and your ability to succeed, the truer they will become (whether or not you choose MD or DO!)

Which reminds me of Henry Ford's famous quote: Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t–you’re right.

He also said: Obstacles are those frightful things you see when you take your eyes off your goals.

 

[Lucca]

I'd like to live in a world where I could agree with @LizzyM but the facts before us (namely, these) compel me to second @Med Ed

Unless you're OK going into residency application with something like a roof on your competitiveness choosing DO over MD will add greater obstacles to your career than being intimated by your classmates.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yes, the information we study will be the same, but how it will be tested won’t be—and that scares me.

No it's not. If you think going to a DO school will be any easier then you are in for a seriously rude awakening.

The answer to your question is "never."

 

[LizzyM]

I'd like to live in a world where I could agree with @LizzyM but the facts before us (namely, these) compel me to second @Med Ed

Unless you're OK going into residency application with something like a roof on your competitiveness choosing DO over MD will add greater obstacles to your career than being intimated by your classmates.

You'd argue that graduating at the bottom of one's MD class is better than graduating first in one's DO class? I'm not sure that it holds true.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

You'd argue that graduating at the bottom of one's MD class is better than graduating first in one's DO class? I'm not sure that it holds true.

I'm not sure that's what he was saying but if so then yeah that's not true. The people at the tip top of the class at my DO school have recently produced ACGME matches for Derm, IR, Plastics, ENT, ortho, etc. So yeah they do match pretty well.

In these cases I always choose to look at it as if someone will be exactly average wherever they go. An average MD will simply have more opportunities open to them than the average DO.

 

[chemdoctor]

OP it seems you’re choosing the DO school Bc of fear and a feeling of inadequacy to your peers. If that weren’t an issue and this MD school’s averages were around the same, what would you pick!?

As @Goro says, more doors are open to you as an MD, BUT... if you want to go DO then go DO.

But don’t choose the DO school because you’re already assuming you’re gonna fail out of the MD.

 

[chemdoctor]

Also OP,

A 505 ain’t a terrible score. Not to mention, you being a “slow thinker” and all, is fine because guess what? You got ACCEPTED into an MD and DO school. Stop feeling inadequate. You’re smart and you have the ability to be a physician. And there’re adcoms that think so too

 

[Goro]

But wouldn’t an MD at the top of his class have better opportunities than someone at the top of the DO?

That's not the point.

 

[Moko]

My thoughts:

1) In medical school, tests are written to ensure appropriate competency and mastery of the material. A lecturer's goal is to have a 100% pass rate -- not 90% or 95% -- this isn't college any more. Your school wants you to succeed and believes that you can do well in their program. Otherwise, you would never have been interviewed, or gotten off the wait list!

2) Med schools nowadays love to harp on their 'curricular innovations' such as TBL. However, in my humble opinion, these things are usually oversold and should never be the reason for choosing to go or stay away from a school. The bulk of your learning will still be done through your preferred means of studying (alone or in a small group).

3) If you do poorly in the MD program, you would likely have done just as poorly in the DO program as well.

4) While one's GPA+MCAT does have correlation to one's performance during medical school, the correlation is far from being linear, i.e, there are folks who were run-of-the-mill college students who become superstars on the wards, and there are folks who excelled in college who just burn out during medical school. So no one should go into a school thinking that they will be at the top or bottom -- because no one knows until they're there.

5) I'm a firm believer that when comparing schools (not necessarily for just MD vs DO, but also DO vs DO and MD vs MD), one should assume that they will be a middle-of-the-road student. How does the typical student do at both programs? Would you be happy with those results?

Now, what if for some reason you were to be in the bottom 25% (due to sudden death in the family, poor adjustment to the new environment, personal illness, just not being as good a student as you thought, etc.), how do those students do? Would you still be happy with those results? If so, then essentially you've got yourself a safety net by going there.

Of course, these also need to be considered in context of price, personal/family reasons (needing to stay in one location), etc.

Hope this helps.

 

[chemdoctor]

That's not the point.

I know

 

[Moko]

You'd argue that graduating at the bottom of one's MD class is better than graduating first in one's DO class? I'm not sure that it holds true.

Realistically, the person at the bottom of the MD class would likely have been at or near the bottom of the DO class.

I'm not sure that's what he was saying but if so then yeah that's not true. The people at the tip top of the class at my DO school have recently produced ACGME matches for Derm, IR, Plastics, ENT, ortho, etc. So yeah they do match pretty well.

In these cases I always choose to look at it as if someone will be exactly average wherever they go. An average MD will simply have more opportunities open to them than the average DO.

Agreed

 

[LizzyM]

But wouldn’t an MD at the top of his class have better opportunities than someone at the top of the DO?

Someone who is well below the school's average and who comes off the waitlist may not be the strongest student in the MD class.

Realistically, the person at the bottom of the MD class would likely have been at or near the bottom of the DO class.

True if the reason for the poor performance is mental health issues, which is often the case, but if a student is just out of their league in the MD school (MCAT below 10th percentile in the class) compared with being above average in the DO class it may not be a foregone conclusion that the student would be at the bottom of either class.

 

[chlorocruorin]

I understand your troubles and your mindset. All throughout high school I always backed out from AP courses because I sucked at test taking, SAT was **** (below the 50th percentile) and I was known as the dumb jock (football player). Because of that I took zero AP courses and never challenged myself. In college, I was told college football players don't major in science, and the fact that I was a poor test taker and took zero AP courses while my peers were coming in basically sophomores in credits really discouraged me. I was so close in choosing another major. Then freshman year, I got an A on my bio first test and I finally realized that I controlled my own destiny and I made the decision to not let ANYBODY ELSE choose for me. My confidence not only sky rocketed, but it turned into an edge, almost like a positive feedback loop of motivation that kept growing every semester. I always thought "I'm as smart as the smartest in here" and lo and behold my test taking skills went up.

Don't fall into the trap of self-fulling prophesy and negative stereotype. I too did not preform as well as I should've on my MCAT (much lower than yours) but I still have that edge, and as I go into medical school I know that once given the resources that I've never had before I'll be able to thrive. Bottom line: don't worry/care what others do, focus on yourself. You would not be at this point posting this on SDN if you weren't cut out to be. Think about all of the people (my friends included) that had to change career plans after taking gen chem. You're sitting on a lottery and choosing not to cash it in by selling yourself short. Let go and realize that YOU are as smart as anyone. Go to the MD school


Lastly, you got into med school. WHO GIVES A F*** about the MCAT now. I'll bet money none of the physicians here remember or even care what they got on their mcat.

Also, there's data suggesting that once you get above a 500 the gap in "success" in med school narrows. And it further gets minute after 510. My point: You will be fine. A 510 could be in or below the 10th percentile at Harvard....who cares, they're not wasting a seat on someone they feel is more likely to not pass than is.

 

[ConfusedAboutEverything]

Thanks everyone for responding!! There doesn’t seem to be a unanimous “Go for the MD”, but it seems to be the most popular opinion. And thanks to faculties (@Goro @LizzyM @Catalystik @Med Ed for responding and student posters who gave those words of encouragement!

I just wanted to clarify something and would love to hear if that changes your mind.

- My specialty interests: IM or EM (have no issue with FM but prefer hospital medicine—if I do FM, I’d never do outpatient primary care, maybe urgent care or something). Biggest preference is for EM though.

- I’ve been an ED scribe for 5 years (since I was a college Freshman and shadowed plenty of specialties outside of my scribing)—I think the reason I got in was not because of my scores, but because of my experiences and really really good physician letters (after 5 years, these guys are like parents to me, especially since I was there since I was 18 years old!).

- I know I can do well enough on STEP 1 if I study Board materials like Boards&Beyond, pathoma using Anki as an M1. I can put in the work for STEP 1. My concern is, will I even get to take step 1 at the MD program? I could fail out and not even get the chance—at least with the DO school I’m at the students level and would likely perform like them. Also @LizzyM makes a good point that I’ll likely not be at the top of my MD program but could be at the top of the DO program. Basically, In the MD program you can fail a class even if you pass the class’ exams because of poor TBL performance which depends on participation in discussions and quick problem solving—this is where I think I will be hurt. Also my exam taking skills are clearly not at the level of the MD program students. Moreover, if I have more difficulty passing the classes in the MD program, I’ll focus more on classes than STEP 1 specific resources which could harm my score.

So the idea that every STEP 1 exam is the same and residencies want you to be a fast thinker are true, but if the DO school at the very least allows me to take the exam, I’ll at least have a shot at residency. I’m concerned that I won’t do well in the MD program and I do perceive that the programs exams will be harder than the DO program—if I focus too much on passing the lecture exams because I barely pass, I won’t be able to focus on STEP early.

By no way do I think the DO school is easier, but things are tested in a way I know I can handle. It seems some have affirmed that my concerns of the MD program may be true. I’m just totally lost, and I never realized how much my username I created 2 years ago applies to even this. I’m not a confident person, so it’s hard for me to know whether I’m making the right judgement.

 

[Tenk]

Hate to break it to you op but medicine will walk up to your comfort zone, take out a sledge hammer, pound it to a million pieces, pour gasoline on those pieces, light them on fire and then use that fire to make smores... that you can’t eat.

This job only gets harder the further you go. There is no comfort zone when you’re an attending. There’s just can and can not and if you can not, well, people die.

I don’t care what school you chose but don’t believe for a second that one path is going to be happy go lucky yellow brick road and the other will be filled with rocks and thorns. Both paths are going to be an elevator... straight to hell. Enjoy!

 

[Moko]

I’m just totally lost, and I never realized how much my username I created 2 years ago applies to even this. I’m not a confident person, so it’s hard for me to know whether I’m making the right judgement.

It's natural to be anxious about med school performance. If it wasn't for this perceived difference in test difficulties (realistically, they're going to be about the same) and caliber of the students, which school would you go to? The answer to this question should tell you which school to matriculate at.

While 'better ranked' schools tend to have higher matriculant scores, they tend to also have a greater of proportion of their class go on to more competitive specialties and programs. At both programs, you'll need to get confident and adjust quickly. DOs are no slouches. Some additional food for thought.

Hate to break it to you op but medicine will walk up to your comfort zone... This job only gets harder the further you go... don’t believe for a second that one path is going to be happy go lucky yellow brick road and the other will be filled with rocks and thorns.

Agree wholeheartedly. At the end of the day, it's your decision OP and none of us have skin in the game. Go in expecting both places to be rough and bumpy rides. Work hard, and get help whenever needed. Medical training will test you both physically and mentally in ways most people won't realize until they go through it. When you've made you choice, don't look back and think 'what if'. Best of luck in your choice and future career. Congrats.

 

[Med Ed]

- I know I can do well enough on STEP 1 if I study Board materials like Boards&Beyond, pathoma using Anki as an M1. I can put in the work for STEP 1. My concern is, will I even get to take step 1 at the MD program? I could fail out and not even get the chance—at least with the DO school I’m at the students level and would likely perform like them.

Let me get this straight. You are sure that you will be fine on Step 1, a test of foundational basic science knowledge, if you study the same resources used by literally 100% of other medical students, but you're afraid you won't get to that point because you'll fail the classes that are trying to teach you... foundational basic science knowledge.

Go to the DO school, give the MD seat to someone else, and report back in two years.

 

[Deecee2DO]

The MD school I was accepted to off the waitlist—I have no idea how, but my MCAT sucks (505). At the interview, the students are at a much higher professional and intellectual level than I am and I felt intimidated by the student body. They have team based learning which I absolutely despise but they also grade you based on your participation in group conversations too (I’m a slow thinker and very shy and intimidated by the students—this isn’t going to go well). Also classes are mandatory here. Considering the average MCAT here, the students are going to be better test takers and in my experience: professors make exams harder when the students are smarter and score well. So I’m not sure I’m going to pass my courses here since this is beyond my pay grade. My MCAT (and my practice MCAT scores) are discouraging and I really tried to do well on that exam...this school’s average MCAT is 512, I am below the 10% line on MCAT according to MSAR.

The DO school, I’ve fell in love with and until yesterday I thought I was going to be a DO and had planned on going to this school since I haven’t gotten an MD acceptance until yesterday. My average MCAT is the schools average MCAT and the students were chiller and there was no team based learning (traditional curriculum). I feel like I can do better here because of the curriculum that I like and am familiar with. They even give you comprehensive lecture notes and there is no textbook readings. The students (who are at my level on average) do not feel overburdened by lecture and actually have a lot of time to do step studying outside of lecture (which is not mandatory—literally lecture notes have everything you need to know and the lectures are recorded). The only problem is it is a DO school. If that weren’t the case, it would’ve been a no brainer.

I know people will say DO limits your choices, but so is failing your classes at a mid tier MD program because the students are at a higher level than you prompting professors to make exams harder and the students are more outgoing than you so will hog the team based learning participation grade (it literally happened during my interview—we had a component of team discussions we’re graded at, and I could not participate much because of shyness and slower thinking).

But, I don’t think I’ll do well in the MD program. Yes, the information we study will be the same, but how it will be tested won’t be—and that scares me. The DO school is my comfort zone and I outperform in my comfort zone.

DO schools and MD schools are the same difficulty and yes you will be tested the same in both schools. They are both medical school and both train you to be a medical doctor. You think youre the only shy med student? lol no. Go MD it opens more doors. I had a 497 MCAT and my classes avg is a 506 and I currently stand in the top quartile of the class aka your MCAT means nothing. Bottom line go MD youll be fine-you were smart enough and hardworking enough to get accepted to med school so youll likely be able to succeed wherever you were accepted

 

[Gibbward]

I

Thanks everyone for responding!! There doesn’t seem to be a unanimous “Go for the MD”, but it seems to be the most popular opinion. And thanks to faculties (@Goro @LizzyM @Catalystik @Med Ed for responding and student posters who gave those words of encouragement!

I just wanted to clarify something and would love to hear if that changes your mind.

- My specialty interests: IM or EM (have no issue with FM but prefer hospital medicine—if I do FM, I’d never do outpatient primary care, maybe urgent care or something). Biggest preference is for EM though.

- I’ve been an ED scribe for 5 years (since I was a college Freshman and shadowed plenty of specialties outside of my scribing)—I think the reason I got in was not because of my scores, but because of my experiences and really really good physician letters (after 5 years, these guys are like parents to me, especially since I was there since I was 18 years old!).

- I know I can do well enough on STEP 1 if I study Board materials like Boards&Beyond, pathoma using Anki as an M1. I can put in the work for STEP 1. My concern is, will I even get to take step 1 at the MD program? I could fail out and not even get the chance—at least with the DO school I’m at the students level and would likely perform like them. Also @LizzyM makes a good point that I’ll likely not be at the top of my MD program but could be at the top of the DO program. Basically, In the MD program you can fail a class even if you pass the class’ exams because of poor TBL performance which depends on participation in discussions and quick problem solving—this is where I think I will be hurt. Also my exam taking skills are clearly not at the level of the MD program students. Moreover, if I have more difficulty passing the classes in the MD program, I’ll focus more on classes than STEP 1 specific resources which could harm my score.

So the idea that every STEP 1 exam is the same and residencies want you to be a fast thinker are true, but if the DO school at the very least allows me to take the exam, I’ll at least have a shot at residency. I’m concerned that I won’t do well in the MD program and I do perceive that the programs exams will be harder than the DO program—if I focus too much on passing the lecture exams because I barely pass, I won’t be able to focus on STEP early.

By no way do I think the DO school is easier, but things are tested in a way I know I can handle. It seems some have affirmed that my concerns of the MD program may be true. I’m just totally lost, and I never realized how much my username I created 2 years ago applies to even this. I’m not a confident person, so it’s hard for me to know whether I’m making the right judgement.

The fact that you think you’re gonna fail out of MD school is crazy talk since you haven’t even taken a single lecture or TBL session in this school. Have you even talked to students in this MD program and asked them how many students actually fail classes strictly because of poor participation? How exactly are these TBL sessions done? Is there a faculty member leading the group? I’m assuming there is one and it’s not a straight students-leading-students kinda thing. And if there is a faculty there, don’t you think the faculty has every incentive to facilitate the discussion to make sure everyone gets to try and say something in the discussion so everyone can get credit? You won’t be the first quiet shy kid they’ve had and they for sure would have ways to make sure everyone is engaged in the discussion. Also you don’t even have to get questions right! Just say something, anything, even if you think its wrong so you can contribute, then move on. The faculty won’t mark you down coz you get a question wrong, they just want to see that you’re trying to engage the material.

Go MD dude. I know DO students that would kill to be in a MD school because of all the perks, networking, and admin support that MD programs have. Don’t make the big picture process harder for yourself.

 

[ciestar]

Your attitude will sink you long before any program will.

 

[907914]

Thanks everyone for responding!! There doesn’t seem to be a unanimous “Go for the MD”, but it seems to be the most popular opinion. And thanks to faculties (@Goro @LizzyM @Catalystik @Med Ed for responding and student posters who gave those words of encouragement!

I just wanted to clarify something and would love to hear if that changes your mind.

- My specialty interests: IM or EM (have no issue with FM but prefer hospital medicine—if I do FM, I’d never do outpatient primary care, maybe urgent care or something). Biggest preference is for EM though.

- I’ve been an ED scribe for 5 years (since I was a college Freshman and shadowed plenty of specialties outside of my scribing)—I think the reason I got in was not because of my scores, but because of my experiences and really really good physician letters (after 5 years, these guys are like parents to me, especially since I was there since I was 18 years old!).

- I know I can do well enough on STEP 1 if I study Board materials like Boards&Beyond, pathoma using Anki as an M1. I can put in the work for STEP 1. My concern is, will I even get to take step 1 at the MD program? I could fail out and not even get the chance—at least with the DO school I’m at the students level and would likely perform like them. Also @LizzyM makes a good point that I’ll likely not be at the top of my MD program but could be at the top of the DO program. Basically, In the MD program you can fail a class even if you pass the class’ exams because of poor TBL performance which depends on participation in discussions and quick problem solving—this is where I think I will be hurt. Also my exam taking skills are clearly not at the level of the MD program students. Moreover, if I have more difficulty passing the classes in the MD program, I’ll focus more on classes than STEP 1 specific resources which could harm my score.

So the idea that every STEP 1 exam is the same and residencies want you to be a fast thinker are true, but if the DO school at the very least allows me to take the exam, I’ll at least have a shot at residency. I’m concerned that I won’t do well in the MD program and I do perceive that the programs exams will be harder than the DO program—if I focus too much on passing the lecture exams because I barely pass, I won’t be able to focus on STEP early.

By no way do I think the DO school is easier, but things are tested in a way I know I can handle. It seems some have affirmed that my concerns of the MD program may be true. I’m just totally lost, and I never realized how much my username I created 2 years ago applies to even this. I’m not a confident person, so it’s hard for me to know whether I’m making the right judgement.

Your self esteem seems beaten to a pulp before even matriculating...maybe work on that somehow?

The MD and DO material will be the same. You won’t fail out - almost no one fails out. Those that do fail out are the <498 MCATs who shouldn’t have even gotten in in the first place. Unless you get drunk on duty or throw a cat off your 33rd floor balcony then you are solid.

Build your self confidence l, do the MD, be done. If you can get through a DO school then you can get through an MD school. If you maintain this level of self esteem, you will be in a state of depression filled with imposter syndrome within your first 2 months of matriculation at either institution.

 

[Cornfed101]

Unless you get drunk on duty or throw a cat off your 33rd floor balcony then you are solid.

Especially if that "cat" is Goro. That would be bad... don't throw adcoms off of buildings.

 

[907914]

Especially if that "cat" is Goro. That would be bad... don't throw adcoms off of buildings.

1 less ADCOM means one less “Yes” vote you have to get. Think harder not smarter.

Just joking @Goro people shouldn’t throw ADCOM members, cats, or really anything or anyone out the window.

 

[Goro]

Your self esteem seems beaten to a pulp before even matriculating...maybe work on that somehow?

The MD and DO material will be the same. You won’t fail out - almost no one fails out. Those that do fail out are the <498 MCATs who shouldn’t have even gotten in in the first place. Unless you get drunk on duty or throw a cat off your 33rd floor balcony then you are solid.

Build your self confidence l, do the MD, be done. If you can get through a DO school then you can get through an MD school. If you maintain this level of self esteem, you will be in a state of depression filled with imposter syndrome within your first 2 months of matriculation at either institution.

Actually, the vast majority of people who fail out of med school do so due to mental health issues.

 

[907914]

Actually, the vast majority of people who fail out of med school do so due to mental health issues.

Then my point is furthered - people don’t often fail out due to academic incapability.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My concern is, will I even get to take step 1 at the MD program? I could fail out and not even get the chance—at least with the DO school I’m at the students level and would likely perform like them.

You seriously underestimate a lot of DO students. I have people in my class who I would put toe to toe with the best MD students in the country. The idea that you will fail the MD program and somehow magically do a lot better at the DO program is complete nonsense. If you fail out of one you most definitely fail out of the other, it's the same content and the tests won't be any easier.

but could be at the top of the DO program.

You won't.

Basically, In the MD program you can fail a class even if you pass the class’ exams because of poor TBL performance which depends on participation in discussions and quick problem solving—this is where I think I will be hurt. Also my exam taking skills are clearly not at the level of the MD program students. Moreover, if I have more difficulty passing the classes in the MD program, I’ll focus more on classes than STEP 1 specific resources which could harm my score.

Has it ever occurred to you that at the DO school you will also have mandatory OMM labs and lectures which will inhibit you from studying anything for class OR for boards? You also have to study OMM for boards because it's on COMLEX. You think doing these things will be easier at the DO school for..... what reason exactly? Also, "my test taking skills aren't at the level of the MD program" yes you think you will do well on Step where you are compared, get this, directly with those MD students?

There is literally zero reason for you to go DO.

 

[drducky.]

Dont forget about the time sink that is OMM and having to take 2 sets of boards if you go DO, all while putting yourself at a disadvantage to MD.

 

[907914]

You seriously underestimate a lot of DO students. I have people in my class who I would put toe to toe with the best MD students in the country. The idea that you will fail the MD program and somehow magically do a lot better at the DO program is complete nonsense. If you fail out of one you most definitely fail out of the other, it's the same content and the tests won't be any easier.



You won't.


Has it ever occurred to you that at the DO school you will also have mandatory OMM labs and lectures which will inhibit you from studying anything for class OR for boards? You also have to study OMM for boards because it's on COMLEX. You think doing these things will be easier at the DO school for..... what reason exactly?

From my conversations with peers, there appears to be a general uninformed premed opinion that DO schools = easier to get in to = not as hard

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

that DO schools = easier to get in to = not as hard

Yeah I've heard that too, but it isn't true. People greatly underestimate the top quartile (or more honestly) of DO students, and it's literally the exact same material. "Easier" and "harder" isn't divided along the MD/DO line, it's more the individual schools based on how they test and the set up of the curriculum.

 

[907914]

Yeah I've heard that too, but it isn't true. People greatly underestimate the top quartile (or more honestly) of DO students, and it's literally the exact same material. "Easier" and "harder" isn't divided along the MD/DO line, it's more the individual schools based on how they test and the set up of the curriculum.

If anything DO can be harder to work on board prep due to OMM and to get in-the-know from limited and/or poor clinicals.

 

[Goro]

From my conversations with peers, there appears to be a general uninformed premed delusion that DO schools = not as hard

FTFY

 

[differentiating]

Thanks everyone for responding!! There doesn’t seem to be a unanimous “Go for the MD”, but it seems to be the most popular opinion. And thanks to faculties (@Goro @LizzyM @Catalystik @Med Ed for responding and student posters who gave those words of encouragement!

I just wanted to clarify something and would love to hear if that changes your mind.

- My specialty interests: IM or EM (have no issue with FM but prefer hospital medicine—if I do FM, I’d never do outpatient primary care, maybe urgent care or something). Biggest preference is for EM though.

- I’ve been an ED scribe for 5 years (since I was a college Freshman and shadowed plenty of specialties outside of my scribing)—I think the reason I got in was not because of my scores, but because of my experiences and really really good physician letters (after 5 years, these guys are like parents to me, especially since I was there since I was 18 years old!).

- I know I can do well enough on STEP 1 if I study Board materials like Boards&Beyond, pathoma using Anki as an M1. I can put in the work for STEP 1. My concern is, will I even get to take step 1 at the MD program? I could fail out and not even get the chance—at least with the DO school I’m at the students level and would likely perform like them. Also @LizzyM makes a good point that I’ll likely not be at the top of my MD program but could be at the top of the DO program. Basically, In the MD program you can fail a class even if you pass the class’ exams because of poor TBL performance which depends on participation in discussions and quick problem solving—this is where I think I will be hurt. Also my exam taking skills are clearly not at the level of the MD program students. Moreover, if I have more difficulty passing the classes in the MD program, I’ll focus more on classes than STEP 1 specific resources which could harm my score.

So the idea that every STEP 1 exam is the same and residencies want you to be a fast thinker are true, but if the DO school at the very least allows me to take the exam, I’ll at least have a shot at residency. I’m concerned that I won’t do well in the MD program and I do perceive that the programs exams will be harder than the DO program—if I focus too much on passing the lecture exams because I barely pass, I won’t be able to focus on STEP early.

By no way do I think the DO school is easier, but things are tested in a way I know I can handle. It seems some have affirmed that my concerns of the MD program may be true. I’m just totally lost, and I never realized how much my username I created 2 years ago applies to even this. I’m not a confident person, so it’s hard for me to know whether I’m making the right judgement.

Unless you’re going to a Caribbean school, you won’t be prohibited from sitting for step 1 at an MD school. I don’t know anyone who was kicked out of my class for academic reasons- those who were at higher risk to fail step 1 were given an additional 2 months to study (at the cost of a clinical elective later on), not flunked. Also, specific class material will help you study for step 1 - I solely studied class material until 2-3 months before step and did well.

I’m also not sure where this impression that you’ll excel in DO school but flounder in MD comes from. It’s the same material being tested in similar ways, except DO adds OMM.

ED has been (relatively) competitive the past few years, from what I’ve heard from friends, so I’d think the “leg up” of being an MD would be worth it. IM would be doable with either.

 

[chlorocruorin]

Trust the process, for over a hundred years this system, which has remained intact, has produced competent physicians. You will not be the one exception

 

[Planes2Doc]

If it's a Caribbean or foreign school most definitely.

 

[Lucca]

You'd argue that graduating at the bottom of one's MD class is better than graduating first in one's DO class? I'm not sure that it holds true.

In a world of P/F where AOA is only highly valued under a handful of circumstances, I’d argue that someone with a 505 has a very slim chance of failing out of an MD school and with the right attitude can do just fine on Step 1 at whatever institution they go to, MD or DO, but at an MD they can do so without ever having to face the risk of a DO handicap.

You can be the most borderline mediocre medical student your medical school has ever seen by preclinical metrics but if you can score at or above the average Step 1 and have solid clinical performance you’re going to have more options as an MD than a DO. To me that seems to be the reality of the situation from what others have reported.

 

[LizzyM]

Unless you’re going to a Caribbean school, you won’t be prohibited from sitting for step 1 at an MD school. I don’t know anyone who was kicked out of my class for academic reasons- those who were at higher risk to fail step 1 were given an additional 2 months to study (at the cost of a clinical elective later on), not flunked. Also, specific class material will help you study for step 1 - I solely studied class material until 2-3 months before step and did well.

I’m also not sure where this impression that you’ll excel in DO school but flounder in MD comes from. It’s the same material being tested in similar ways, except DO adds OMM.

ED has been (relatively) competitive the past few years, from what I’ve heard from friends, so I’d think the “leg up” of being an MD would be worth it. IM would be doable with either.

I think that the OP is intimidated by the idea of being graded on TBL and having tougher competition in the MD school (if the cut-point for passing is 2 standard deviations (SD) below the mean you might expect a school of super-stars to have a higher mean and tighter SD than a school of average med students.)

What I'm getting from this thread is that the first decision regarding fit is "is it an MD school in the states?" If "yes", it is a better fit than anything else.

 

[Lawpy]

The MD school I was accepted to off the waitlist—I have no idea how, but my MCAT sucks (505). At the interview, the students are at a much higher professional and intellectual level than I am and I felt intimidated by the student body. They have team based learning which I absolutely despise but they also grade you based on your participation in group conversations too (I’m a slow thinker and very shy and intimidated by the students—this isn’t going to go well). Also classes are mandatory here. Considering the average MCAT here, the students are going to be better test takers and in my experience: professors make exams harder when the students are smarter and score well. So I’m not sure I’m going to pass my courses here since this is beyond my pay grade. My MCAT (and my practice MCAT scores) are discouraging and I really tried to do well on that exam...this school’s average MCAT is 512, I am below the 10% line on MCAT according to MSAR.

The DO school, I’ve fell in love with and until yesterday I thought I was going to be a DO and had planned on going to this school since I haven’t gotten an MD acceptance until yesterday. My average MCAT is the schools average MCAT and the students were chiller and there was no team based learning (traditional curriculum). I feel like I can do better here because of the curriculum that I like and am familiar with. They even give you comprehensive lecture notes and there is no textbook readings. The students (who are at my level on average) do not feel overburdened by lecture and actually have a lot of time to do step studying outside of lecture (which is not mandatory—literally lecture notes have everything you need to know and the lectures are recorded). The only problem is it is a DO school. If that weren’t the case, it would’ve been a no brainer.

I know people will say DO limits your choices, but so is failing your classes at a mid tier MD program because the students are at a higher level than you prompting professors to make exams harder and the students are more outgoing than you so will hog the team based learning participation grade (it literally happened during my interview—we had a component of team discussions we’re graded at, and I could not participate much because of shyness and slower thinking).

But, I don’t think I’ll do well in the MD program. Yes, the information we study will be the same, but how it will be tested won’t be—and that scares me. The DO school is my comfort zone and I outperform in my comfort zone.

I haven't followed this thread but to answer your question, when given the option, you should pick US MD school over US DO school in almost all cases unless you have very specific and personal circumstances that make DO school the better option. These cases are rare but to help you out, I'll tag @Stagg737 for more info since he is far more experienced on this matter.

 

[differentiating]

I think that the OP is intimidated by the idea of being graded on TBL and having tougher competition in the MD school (if the cut-point for passing is 2 standard deviations (SD) below the mean you might expect a school of super-stars to have a higher mean and tighter SD than a school of average med students.)

What I'm getting from this thread is that the first decision regarding fit is "is it an MD school in the states?" If "yes", it is a better fit than anything else.

It definitely depends how the MD school does grading - TBL may be more pass/fail than OP realizes (I passed all my "participation-based" small groups while playing games on my iPad the entire time), and at least at my school, passing is a set number (70%) that has nothing to do with the mean/SD of the class. I'm not sure if OP has mentioned any details about the grading system, so it's possible it's more rigid than what I'm used to.

I do personally think there are reasons why someone would pick DO over MD that are valid. But "I think I'd fail out of MD so I'll do DO" isn't one of them, as others have said.

 

[Medicine Mamba]

You are lacking confidence at the moment in your abilities. Yes your peers at the MD school may be more accomplished on paper... but at the end of the day, all you need to do is simply PASS your classes. You definitely can do that if you got accepted. Go MD, it will open more doors

 

[WedgeDawg]

Hey there,

From your perspective, I can see how this would be a difficult choice. You're concerned that you might be "outmatched" at the MD school but perhaps not so much at the DO school and you feel like the DO school might be more "at your level".

In my experience and based on the information I've acquired on here and irl the past several years, I think that going to the MD school would be what I recommend for you (and most people) for the following reasons.

1) first, it doesn't really matter what your class rank is / how you do relative to your peers unless you are trying to get into a highly competitive specialty or a highly competitive program within any specialty. This holds even more true at an MD school than at a DO school because your baseline for who is going to look at your application is going to be better from the get go.

2) that being said, the level of competition that you'll face at the MD school and the DO school will be comparable. You're not going to go from doing super well at a DO school to doing super poorly at an MD school, or vice versa. Chances are you'll be somewhere in the middle of the pack wherever you go, and if you're at the top or bottom of one, you'll also most likely be at the top or bottom of the other. TBL, lecture, tests, it doesn't mater.

3) A bottom of the pack MD will overall have at least the same options available to them as a middle of the pack DO, and honestly will probably have better options just by virtue of coming from the MD school. Top of DO vs. bottom of MD or any other comparisons are mostly irrelevant. Especially if you want to match IM or EM, which are both somewhat competitive, but not overly competitive and don't require stellar top of the top med school performance or anywhere near that.

4) You have several things going for you: you were accepted to multiple medical schools after a very long, arduous admissions process. You have an above 50th percentile MCAT. You are aware of your weaker areas. If you were admitted, especially twice, admissions committee members think you can succeed in medical school and become a physician.

5) You will face challenges being soft spoken and not as quick a thinker in either MD or DO school - there aren't tangible differences from this perspective that would impact your performance.

6) All this stuff about grading is noise. You know that most likely, you aren't going to be valedictorian of your class or apply into plastics, and so all of this discussion about that stuff that's happening is people missing the forest for the trees. Your biggest concern is that you won't be in your comfort zone at the MD school, but the far and away most likely scenario is that you'll be out of your comfort zone at either school. This is a good thing - medicine takes everyone out of their comfort zones, and it makes you more adaptable and prepares you to be a better physician, and even if it doesn't, it's something you'll have to deal with regardless.

7) The difference in your residency options between doing middle vs very well at a DO school is going to be less than the difference between any performance at a DO school other than maybe the tippy top vs. any performance at an MD school, and even if you happen to be #1, you're still going to be locked out of residencies that would have been open to you as a middle of the road or even well below average MD student. I'm not saying it's right or fair, just the reality of the situation.

So make your own decision, but do so informedly. I think there is a right choice here, but I'm not you, so it is now up to you to weigh the information and make a choice.