When to start scrambling for away rotations?

[DeadCactus]

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I applied to the two main places I wanted to do away rotations. It's been a few weeks and no answer. No response to e-mails. Is it too early to expect an answer or should I start looking at other places? I don't want to end up with no away rotation...

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

Have you had ZERO contact back from the program?

If you have not heard a thing (such as not even a: Thanks for the applications, etc), I think I would get on the phone and call the coordinator tomorrow and just politely ask them. Tell them you sent an application/email/whatever and have not heard any response.

I would hope you can at least get an acknowledgment out of them and a time frame. Depending on where you applied, some places are essentially not competitive and its purely a logistic thing. Other places have a semi competitive list to get a prime time rotation.

Good luck to you.

 

[DeadCactus]

I got an "application received" e-mail, but it struck me as an automated form letter sent by VSAS.

 

[RustedFox]

Does it not bother anyone (besides me) that the process of applying for an away rotation has become turbo-competitive ? The way it seems to me... unless you "know" that you want to "do EM" from the time you're a MS-1/2... then you're already behind the eight-ball.

I'm a bit older and removed from the process... but what constitutes a "competitive" application? When I was going thru this, we didn't have this VSAS thing.

It just seems a touch ridiculous to me that you have to "ready your application" during your MS-2/3 year... when most people don't have an effing clue as to what they want to do.

If you would have talked to me during the latter half of my MS-2 year... I would have sworn to you that I was destined for IM and (particularly) infectious disease or pulmonology. My, my.. how two months change a fella's view.

I hate to say it... but... there's talk of parents "grooming" their kids for sports at the "little league" level... are we also trending in that direction?

Seems to me like we're coming up on the days where if you don't "know" your induction meds prior to walking into undergrad... well.... then... that's like being 19 and expecting to throw a fastball at the minor-league-A level. Pffft.


I stand to be wrong. I'm open to criticism. G'head.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Does it not bother anyone (besides me) that the process of applying for an away rotation has become turbo-competitive ? The way it seems to me... unless you "know" that you want to "do EM" from the time you're a MS-1/2... then you're already behind the eight-ball.

I'm a bit older and removed from the process... but what constitutes a "competitive" application? When I was going thru this, we didn't have this VSAS thing.

I hate to say it... but... there's talk of parents "grooming" their kids for sports at the "little league" level... are we also trending in that direction?

Seems to me like we're coming up on the days where if you don't "know" your induction meds prior to walking into undergrad... well.... then... that's like being 22 and expecting to throw a fastball at the minor-league-A level. Pffft.


I stand to be wrong. I'm open to criticism. G'head.

EM is growing in popularity. I guess people are under the impression it's just candy and puppies, all day, every day. This is moderately irritating to those of us who do "just okay" on exams but work hard and fully expect there may be more bad days than good, but it's still what we want.

I don't know what a competitive application is, but I do know our local PD said a 230+ Step 1 is quickly becoming more necessary.

 

[RafaTech]

EM is growing in popularity. I guess people are under the impression it's just candy and puppies, all day, every day. This is moderately irritating to those of us who do "just okay" on exams but work hard and fully expect there may be more bad days than good, but it's still what we want.

I don't know what a competitive application is, but I do know our local PD said a 230+ Step 1 is quickly becoming more necessary.

Ditto. When I spoke to the faculty of my home program before match, they said they expected their incoming class to have a Step 1 average around 230-235...and my home school is not the one of most competitive program in the country.

 

[namethatsmell]

It just seems a touch ridiculous to me that you have to "ready your application" during your MS-2/3 year... when most people don't have an effing clue as to what they want to do.
...
I stand to be wrong. I'm open to criticism. G'head.

You are 100% correct. I'm a rising 4th year and my school doesn't allow us to do an EM rotation...until our 4th year. I have many classmates who have set up their entire 4th year schedule so they can try to match into EM...without ever having spent meaningful time in the ED. And yeah the entire application process in getting way more competitive in general: applications need to be in earlier, scores need to be higher, and it doesn't hurt if you found a cure for AIDS 'cause some of the other applicants will have).

I don't know what a competitive application is, but I do know our local PD said a 230+ Step 1 is quickly becoming more necessary.

While there's no denying that board scores are going up, scores don't appear to be the end-all/be-all in EM (as opposed to some other fields). My school showed us the Step 1 data from our graduates in the past few years who matched into EM (over 40 students)--the average score was ~217. We're told that if you have a Step 1 above 210 you should be OK to match (assuming everything else in your app is solid).

 

[engineeredout]

You know what really grinds my gears?

Programs who won't even tell me if there is an open spot for a rotation during the timeslot I have available without me doing the whole VSAS application and shelling out the 35$ to apply. VSAS just seems like a great way to make more money off of us.

And I'm glad I'm not the only one whose had a terrible time trying to set up rotations. A lot of these places didn't even want to hear from a visiting student until May and then they're all full. Oh but I can still get that highly coveted April rotation slot...

 

[tsbqb]

You know what really grinds my gears?

Programs who won't even tell me if there is an open spot for a rotation during the timeslot I have available without me doing the whole VSAS application and shelling out the 35$ to apply. VSAS just seems like a great way to make more money off of us.

And I'm glad I'm not the only one whose had a terrible time trying to set up rotations. A lot of these places didn't even want to hear from a visiting student until May and then they're all full. Oh but I can still get that highly coveted April rotation slot...

that made me literally lough out loud. Its so true

 

[dally1025]

Does it not bother anyone (besides me) that the process of applying for an away rotation has become turbo-competitive ? The way it seems to me... unless you "know" that you want to "do EM" from the time you're a MS-1/2... then you're already behind the eight-ball.

I'm a bit older and removed from the process... but what constitutes a "competitive" application? When I was going thru this, we didn't have this VSAS thing.

It just seems a touch ridiculous to me that you have to "ready your application" during your MS-2/3 year... when most people don't have an effing clue as to what they want to do.

If you would have talked to me during the latter half of my MS-2 year... I would have sworn to you that I was destined for IM and (particularly) infectious disease or pulmonology. My, my.. how two months change a fella's view.

I hate to say it... but... there's talk of parents "grooming" their kids for sports at the "little league" level... are we also trending in that direction?

Seems to me like we're coming up on the days where if you don't "know" your induction meds prior to walking into undergrad... well.... then... that's like being 19 and expecting to throw a fastball at the minor-league-A level. Pffft.


I stand to be wrong. I'm open to criticism. G'head.

I agree. I received some good advice from some now graduated M4's going into EM that said forget VSAS and just call the place you want to do your rotation. Not all places do this but it's worth calling to check. Doing this I was able to secure a spot before the program said they were even accepting applications for aways. When I called, she said that I needed to get my app in quickly because they were almost completely full.

What really blows my mind is that many of these programs want LORs from EP's, personal statements, etc when the vast majority of us have yet to do our EM rotations since they're usually 4th year electives (as most of the apps are due, at least according to VSAS in late April/early May). I have no problem with them asking us to show interest but it's really difficult to write about how much you love EM having not been exposed to it! Unless you know you're doing EM by the middle of 3rd year you're at a huge disadvantage and considering most people don't have the exposure to EM until 4th year it makes no sense.

 

[Dane07MD]

Does it not bother anyone (besides me) that the process of applying for an away rotation has become turbo-competitive ? The way it seems to me... unless you "know" that you want to "do EM" from the time you're a MS-1/2... then you're already behind the eight-ball.

I'm a bit older and removed from the process... but what constitutes a "competitive" application? When I was going thru this, we didn't have this VSAS thing.

It just seems a touch ridiculous to me that you have to "ready your application" during your MS-2/3 year... when most people don't have an effing clue as to what they want to do.

If you would have talked to me during the latter half of my MS-2 year... I would have sworn to you that I was destined for IM and (particularly) infectious disease or pulmonology. My, my.. how two months change a fella's view.

I hate to say it... but... there's talk of parents "grooming" their kids for sports at the "little league" level... are we also trending in that direction?

Seems to me like we're coming up on the days where if you don't "know" your induction meds prior to walking into undergrad... well.... then... that's like being 19 and expecting to throw a fastball at the minor-league-A level. Pffft.


I stand to be wrong. I'm open to criticism. G'head.

Yet another reason that RustedFox SOM will stand out above the rest. Less pressure to decide early!

Seriously though, it's ridiculous. I love that you can call a place and they say "we're not accepting apps until May 1." And on May 1, you submit and they say they've been full for 2 months, but we have openings in the 12/10-1/6 slot. (Yeah that sounds great, spend interview time, Christmas and NYE on an away...)

I have a sub-220 step 1 and interviewed at a great range of programs, some considered to be the best in their respective regions. Step 1/2 scores aren't everything, it's a whole package for this specialty I feel like. As opposed to ENT, ortho, and the like.

 

[parkit]

I'm in a similar situation and have applied to about 15 away rotations and have only gotten a couple of rejections for being full. I got started sort of late (around mid April to May) with my applications and still do not have an acceptance in my pocket. If it matters I have around average grades and Step I in the 240s. Any advice on whether I should be scrambling for one or if there is still time to hear back from the ones I've applied to? For those who have experienced this in years past, did you hear back fairly early or did some trickle in 1-2 months prior? Thanks!

 

[Docuronium]

This whole thing just sounds crazy when I know there are multiple programs that don't fill all their away spots, and others that have no limit on the number of students they allow to rotate.

Edit: It's just another reason that SDN gives me heartburn + anxiety.

 

[theWUbear]

Does it not bother anyone (besides me) that the process of applying for an away rotation has become turbo-competitive ? The way it seems to me... unless you "know" that you want to "do EM" from the time you're a MS-1/2... then you're already behind the eight-ball.

MS-1/2 here, looks like I set myself on EM right on time

 

[Docuronium]

It just seems a touch ridiculous to me that you have to "ready your application" during your MS-2/3 year... when most people don't have an effing clue as to what they want to do.

Don't want to be too critical, but I suppose this could just be from selection bias RustedFox. If you see a couple people who knew exactly what they wanted to do (in this case EM) during their 2nd year, and then saw they were successful when applying, it'd make sense to assume that you had to know what you were doing during your 2nd year.

At my school I've seen people change their mind at the last moment and still match into very competitive fields at very competitive places. Granted, they were outstanding applicants to start with, but they hadn't been setting up their application for years... in some cases, they only had a few weeks.

I think the moral of the story here is do the best you can, and hopefully, good things will happen. It helps to know early, but it doesn't kill if you discover late.

 

[RustedFox]

Yet another reason that RustedFox SOM will stand out above the rest. Less pressure to decide early!

Seriously though, it's ridiculous. .

Yep. RustedFox SOM. More clinically relevant knowledge and training, less time in a library re-re-relearning how to draw the amino acids. 'Cause that's so important.

Vick: I hear you on selection bias... a valid point... but the way the system is set-up it really does make it seem like you must have "planned" for EM early-on, often times before you were even ever exposed to it. VSAS wasn't around back in my day. It was "call and ask".

Just the very idea of having to go thru another "application" process drives me nuts. Lets recap: you need to "ready your application... be competitive... and be ready well in advance for....

1. medical school
2. residency
3. state licensure (you guys and gals will learn that when they say - "6-8 weeks.... that they really mean 6-8 months"... and shucks, as a resident - I just don't "have" 2000+ bucks lying around at the ready. Food and rent came first) Granted, you don't have to "be competitive" for this, but the timeframe is asinine.

but now, let's just add "audition rotation(s) for EM" in between "medical school" and "residency", and on top of "STEP-1/2/CK/CS".

Its too much for any reasonable individual. Its absurd to invest time, money, and resources to "apply" to "see if you like" a field of study enough to apply to it again later.

 

[jbar]

I think you guys need to realize how lucky we are in EM. Most people do 1 away rotation, but its not required. And certainly you don't need to rotate somewhere to match there. Compare this to my friends in other fields like ortho where they basically must rotate at a program to match, and do 2-3 away rotations in addition to their home Sub-I.

Yeah, VASAS sucks. But a lot of programs are a lot more flexible than they sound on the websites. I did an away with people who started a week earlier than me because that fit their schedule better, and the program had no problem having them start earlier. Sometimes they can squeeze you in even if they are "full." If you are not getting into your dream away I think it's fine to call up and talk to them. When you are like "hey, I'm from Denver, my family is in Denver, I really want to try to do residency in Colorado, please let me rotate before interview season" most places will try to work with you.

 

[Docuronium]

Yep. RustedFox SOM. More clinically relevant knowledge and training, less time in a library re-re-relearning how to draw the amino acids. 'Cause that's so important.

Vick: I hear you on selection bias... a valid point... but the way the system is set-up it really does make it seem like you must have "planned" for EM early-on, often times before you were even ever exposed to it. VSAS wasn't around back in my day. It was "call and ask".

Just the very idea of having to go thru another "application" process drives me nuts. Lets recap: you need to "ready your application... be competitive... and be ready well in advance for....

1. medical school
2. residency
3. state licensure (you guys and gals will learn that when they say - "6-8 weeks.... that they really mean 6-8 months"... and shucks, as a resident - I just don't "have" 2000+ bucks lying around at the ready. Food and rent came first) Granted, you don't have to "be competitive" for this, but the timeframe is asinine.

but now, let's just add "audition rotation(s) for EM" in between "medical school" and "residency", and on top of "STEP-1/2/CK/CS".

Its too much for any reasonable individual. Its absurd to invest time, money, and resources to "apply" to "see if you like" a field of study enough to apply to it again later.

Totally agree that the whole process is crazy, and probably getting worse, but I also agree with jbar in that we have it very lucky in EM. Some of the stories I hear from my buds trying to get into rad/ortho/derm are pure crazy.

 

[DeadCactus]

To avoid a new thread, I'll post a related question here.

Is it reasonable to schedule an away during interview season. On one hand, everyone knows how this process works and should be aware of schedule constrictions. On the other hand, that doesn't mean programs won't take offence to you going on a date with another girl when you're trying to convince them you want to take things to the next level...

 

[OccupyTheED]

To avoid a new thread, I'll post a related question here.

Is it reasonable to schedule an away during interview season. On one hand, everyone knows how this process works and should be aware of schedule constrictions. On the other hand, that doesn't mean programs won't take offence to you going on a date with another girl when you're trying to convince them you want to take things to the next level...

I would avoid it at all costs. You don't want to ask for time off during an away for ANY reason, much less to go on an interview at another institution. You can pretty much guarantee that you won't match at a place that doesn't get the impression that their institution is a top priority for you.

 

[engineeredout]

I would avoid it at all costs. You don't want to ask for time off during an away for ANY reason, much less to go on an interview at another institution. You can pretty much guarantee that you won't match at a place that doesn't get the impression that their institution is a top priority for you.

That seems completely unreasonable. What, like it's a big secret that we're going to apply to more than one residency? I can see if they got annoyed with you for asking for 10 days off to go on interviews but not going on any whatsoever just to avoid pissing them off?

Not to mention in my case, I have aways scheduled during interview season simply because this is when their programs are available. It was their choice, not mine, and I'll be dammed if I'm not going to go on a single interview the entire month.

 

[OccupyTheED]

That seems completely unreasonable. What, like it's a big secret that we're going to apply to more than one residency? I can see if they got annoyed with you for asking for 10 days off to go on interviews but not going on any whatsoever just to avoid pissing them off?

Not to mention in my case, I have aways scheduled during interview season simply because this is when their programs are available. It was their choice, not mine, and I'll be dammed if I'm not going to go on a single interview the entire month.

I mean if you can't avoid it by no means am I saying to not go on your interviews, I just think that if you can take a month off to interview or try to schedule them during an non-EM month that would be ideal. Not at all that its a big secret I just think that if you ask for too many days off or are constantly asking for your schedule to be adjusted, that you run the risk of negating any advantage you would be gaining by rotating somewhere.

 

[engineeredout]

This made me think of the programs who want LORs just so you can rotate there: