Which DO school has the best clinicals?

[ASDIC]

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I am applying this year...and I need input about which schools have the best clinical rotations during the 3rd and 4th years...thanks

 

[Robz]

This is VERY VERY subjective.

Its like asking any medical school which of them has the best clinicals.

You'll hear a lot of different answers especially on thse boards....

Anyway, my shots for best clinicals are NYCOM and COMP

Then followed by CCOM and PCOM

Just because they are located near big cities....have rotations though a lot of cool hospitals and have been aorund a while.

I'm going to NSUCOM and a lot of my rotation sites are pretty damn cool too cause of locations and hospital affiliations.

But the above 4 would probably be my top choices and again are quite subjective.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Best bet: OSU-COM
Worst bet: AZCOM

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Best bet: OSU-COM
Worst bet: AZCOM

For someone not even in medical school yet, you sure know a lot about other schools clinicals. 🙂

 

[NDESTRUKT]

CCOM's pretty good - they have their own teaching hospital and also use cook county hospital (one of the larger general hospitals in the US). NYCOM and PCOM are also really well established. i would think TCOM and OSU-COM as well as MSU-COM are good too since they're state schools.

i feel that when you do rotations away from your school because there is no teaching hospital it tends to be less stable or not as fun...but each person has their own experiences to share.

 

[Ryan]

I cannot speak for other schools but COMP has a lot of great rotations, many of them right along side LLU and some USC students. There are some that do rotations by arrangement with Stanford (these students are usually doing a try-out rotation for a specific residency like EM). Although I'm only a first year, I have many acquaintances and friends who are COMP Alumni.

Hope this helps...
-Ryan

 

[Eyecon82]

I am applying this year...and I need input about which schools have the best clinical rotations during the 3rd and 4th years...thanks

I'm sure all of the DO schools have great clinicals. It's really up to you to do the research and see which hospitals are affiliated with each of the schools. After evaluating all of the hospitals affiliated with each school, then I would get a US World & News Report on the best hospitals and cross reference your data. I know it sounds like a pain, but when it comes to deciding which medical school to attend, your efforts will pay off.

If you ask people for ther personal opinions, it will most likely be biased.

In my personal opinion, CCOM is at the top tier of clinical education.

 

[OSUdoc08]

For someone not even in medical school yet, you sure know a lot about other schools clinicals. 🙂

I have several friends at both schools, and am very familiar with their clinical situation (these are also the two schools I was deciding between), but that was a good attempt at taking a shot on my credibility....

OSU-COM's hospital is the county hospital for all of Tulsa and is across the street from campus. It is also the LARGEST OSTEOPATHIC HOSPITAL IN THE NATION.

AZCOM doesn't have an osteopathic hospital in the state, and most have to go out of state for clinicals.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I have several friends at both schools, and am very familiar with their clinical situation (these are also the two schools I was deciding between), but that was a good attempt at taking a shot on my credibility....

AZCOM doesn't have an osteopathic hospital in the state, and you have to go out of state for clinicals.

NO one HAS to go out of state for rotations. That a bald faced falsehood. If you don't like having your credibility questioned, don't say ridiculous things.

Now don't misunderstand, I'm not accusing you of lying. But you do need to get the facts before you spout off MULTIPLE times on the subject. Perhaps you need to get better info from your friends, and maybe not believe everything you read on a message board.

As an aside, I think Oklahoma is a great school, almost went there myself. But you don't catch me discussing it on SDN, because I never was a student there, and don't really have the expertise to comment intelligently.

 

[Deno]

This is comming from a second year (once the end of July comes that is) so I haven't been out on the clinical years but I will provided you with the general information I know.

UNECOM 3rd year the rotations are at a variety of core sites throughout New england, New York, and New Jersey. By size our three largest "sites" are: Maine (both southern and northern), Newark NJ, Rhode Island, and... well the last one has left my head.

UNECOM 4th year you schedule all of your own rotations. There are a few required types and a few electives. This year is vary student dependant as you schedule where and when.

In a nutshell that's all I know.

 

[OSUdoc08]

NO one HAS to go out of state for rotations. That a bald faced falsehood. If you don't like having your credibility questioned, don't say ridiculous things.

Now don't misunderstand, I'm not accusing you of lying. But you do need to get the facts before you spout off MULTIPLE times on the subject. Perhaps you need to get better info from your friends, and maybe not believe everything you read on a message board.

As an aside, I think Oklahoma is a great school, almost went there myself. But you don't catch me discussing it on SDN, because I never was a student there, and don't really have the expertise to comment intelligently.

I have a friend who goes to AZCOM that told me that, and I heard it again at my interview. My apologies if it isn't true.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

I have a friend who goes to AZCOM that told me that, and I heard it again at my interview. My apologies if it isn't true.

Apology accepted. Now do us a favor and tell your friend to get the facts straight. 🙂

If you want, PM me who your friend is, and I'll do it. 😉

 

[OSUdoc08]

Ha. Nah I don't want to get him in trouble. He is going out of state for his rotation, and he was complaining about having to travel.

 

[Luck]

Apology accepted. Now do us a favor and tell your friend to get the facts straight. 🙂

If you want, PM me who your friend is, and I'll do it. 😉

Actually, I'm going with OSUdoc on this one. His friend says you have to go out of state on rotations and AZCOM students on the board say it. I believe they have more credence then you since you're just a 1st year there.Let's put it this way. You can stay in state for all rotations but you're probably going to get a weak clinical education. This is why most AZCOM students leave the state to get better rotations.

AZCOM's clinicals just appear to be in a bad situation. However, somehow they manage to produce good doctors as evidenced by their matchlist. Major congrats to them despite the dismal preceptorship. 👍

 

[DaveinDallas]

I have several friends at both schools, and am very familiar with their clinical situation (these are also the two schools I was deciding between), but that was a good attempt at taking a shot on my credibility....

OSU-COM's hospital is the county hospital for all of Tulsa and is across the street from campus. It is also the LARGEST OSTEOPATHIC HOSPITAL IN THE NATION.

AZCOM doesn't have an osteopathic hospital in the state, and you have to go out of state for clinicals.

Thanks for the info on AZCOM. I didn't know that about them.

 

[Boomer]

OSU COM isn't bad--if you don't mind training in the most academically inbred environment in the country.....

Pathology is decent. Faculty is by and large very good. But, for diversity of people involved with the place, well, nevermind......

AZCOM has been discussed at GREAT length on this board.....True, you don't HAVE to leave the state for rotations, however, most CHOOSE to do so for the quality of their education.

 

[mollybo]

OSU COM isn't bad--if you don't mind training in the most academically inbred environment in the country.....

Can you expand a bit on this? Do you mean a lack of diversity in training or opinions, or something else?

 

[Ryan]

Can you expand a bit on this? Do you mean a lack of diversity in training or opinions, or something else?

Uh... I think Boomer was referring to the jokes about Oklahomans and literal inbreeding... you know like "I'm my own grandpa" kinda stuff.

 

[BACMEDIC]

I'm assuming that LECOM has great rotations - since there are over 60 places to go!

 

[oceandocDO]

Who cares about diversity? I would live in California or New York and vote for John Kerry if I cared.

Talk about something that actually is related to medicine, instead of attempting to insult Oklahomans. I am a Texan, but you still offend me.

If you're president of AMSA, arent you required to vote for John Kerry anyway? I used to like AMSA until they started sending me anti-war emails. Please. Enough.

Anyway, regarding the topic at hand, look carefully at where all these "great" rotations from schools are. LECOM may have 60... but you have to move all over the friggin country in the course of a weekend. I know a girl at LECOM who was in Michigan one month, Pennsylvania the next, Georgia the following, and NY after that. Who wants to live like that when you're trying to learn medicine, let alone have friends or a family?

Moral of the story...most rotations are what you make out of them, period. Will you see more in NYC than in Erie, Pennsylvania? Probably, but you still have to take the initiative to learn.

 

[OSUdoc08]

If you're president of AMSA, arent you required to vote for John Kerry anyway? I used to like AMSA until they started sending me anti-war emails. Please. Enough.

Anyway, regarding the topic at hand, look carefully at where all these "great" rotations from schools are. LECOM may have 60... but you have to move all over the friggin country in the course of a weekend. I know a girl at LECOM who was in Michigan one month, Pennsylvania the next, Georgia the following, and NY after that. Who wants to live like that when you're trying to learn medicine, let alone have friends or a family?

Moral of the story...most rotations are what you make out of them, period. Will you see more in NYC than in Erie, Pennsylvania? Probably, but you still have to take the initiative to learn.

Common misperception that AMSA is for democrats only. It is simply the largest medical student organization in the U.S. What happens in Washington by some certain lobbyists that happen to be members isn't affected by me, a Texan, living in Oklahoma.

 

[mollybo]

Uh... I think Boomer was referring to the jokes about Oklahomans and literal inbreeding... you know like "I'm my own grandpa" kinda stuff.

🙄 Well, technically I'm my own aunt. My grandparents adopted me, so I'm both my mother's sister and my mother's daughter.

However, I'm not a native Oklahoman, so conclude what you will.

 

[Boomer]

Who cares about diversity? I would live in California or New York and vote for John Kerry if I cared.

Talk about something that actually is related to medicine, instead of attempting to insult Oklahomans. I am a Texan, but you still offend me.

Well Boo-F'n-Hoo if I offend you.

I'm a native Oklahoman. The comment has nothing to do with Oklahomans and inbreeding. If you read my post, I refer to OSU's hospital as the most academically inbred location in the country.

If you can't understand this, feel free to let me know, and I'll explain slowly, seeing as how yer from Texas and all.....

 

[Boomer]

I feel the need to expand. This is related to medicine. A good 90% of the residents at Tulsa Reg are grads of OSU. In increasing numbers, the faculty are grads of OSU (especially true as some of the older faculty are leaving--see Chair of Internal Medicine). Now, they are opening fellowships--on the surface, good for the osteopathic profession, but how long until one of those spots will be filled by someone from a school OTHER than OSU?

That, is academic incest. You don't see it to this extreme at the top allopathic hospitals. It is bad that you see it at the "largest osteopathic hospital in the country."

 

[(nicedream)]

Who cares about diversity? I would live in California or New York and vote for John Kerry if I cared.

Genuinely scary.

 

[(nicedream)]

LECOM may have 60... but you have to move all over the friggin country in the course of a weekend. I know a girl at LECOM who was in Michigan one month, Pennsylvania the next, Georgia the following, and NY after that. Who wants to live like that when you're trying to learn medicine, let alone have friends or a family?

It is your choice whether you want to go all over the country for your rotations at LECOM or stay in one area. The fact that there are over 60 affiliations means choice. If that girl went to MI, then PA, then GA, then NY she either wanted to (which is a good idea for a wide variety of clinical experience or to audition for programs you're interested in) or made poor choices when it came time to choose rotation sites.

 

[DOtobe]

It is your choice whether you want to go all over the country for your rotations at LECOM or stay in one area. The fact that there are over 60 affiliations means choice. If that girl went to MI, then PA, then GA, then NY she either wanted to (which is a good idea for a wide variety of clinical experience or to audition for programs you're interested in) or made poor choices when it came time to choose rotation sites.

I was going to say the same thing regarding this girl's rotations. At LECOM they have us pick a general area for rotations (Pittsburgh, Erie, etc.) and then you decide between the other people in your area where you are going to go. You absolutely do not have to move all over the country. All of my rotations so far have been within 2 hours of each other - easy to do over a weekend. I'm sure that moving all over the place was either that girl's choice or some bad decision-making.

Having said that, there are some good hospitals in LECOM's list of affiliates, and some not so great ones as well. I'm not sure how LECOM's clinicals compare to other schools, but there definitely is a wide variety of locations, so if you want to high-tail it out of Dreary Erie once the first two years are over you can 😀

 

[Ryan]

I feel the need to expand. This is related to medicine. A good 90% of the residents at Tulsa Reg are grads of OSU. In increasing numbers, the faculty are grads of OSU (especially true as some of the older faculty are leaving--see Chair of Internal Medicine). Now, they are opening fellowships--on the surface, good for the osteopathic profession, but how long until one of those spots will be filled by someone from a school OTHER than OSU?

That, is academic incest. You don't see it to this extreme at the top allopathic hospitals. It is bad that you see it at the "largest osteopathic hospital in the country."

Boomer,
Thanks for the clarification. I did not know this and read a joke into your post that wasn't there...sorry....but if you re-read your post that way it is pretty funny!

-Ryan 🙂

 

[OSUdoc08]

I feel the need to expand. This is related to medicine. A good 90% of the residents at Tulsa Reg are grads of OSU. In increasing numbers, the faculty are grads of OSU (especially true as some of the older faculty are leaving--see Chair of Internal Medicine). Now, they are opening fellowships--on the surface, good for the osteopathic profession, but how long until one of those spots will be filled by someone from a school OTHER than OSU?

That, is academic incest. You don't see it to this extreme at the top allopathic hospitals. It is bad that you see it at the "largest osteopathic hospital in the country."

It physically IS the largest osteopathic hospital in the country. It is a school affiliated institution, so obviously the faculty there will likely be from the institution. Who cares if one doctor is from Kansas City and one is from Kirksville or both are from Tulsa? We all learn the same thing. I suppose if your concern is going to a school that has faculty unfamiliar with the school itself, then you can seek alternatives. Personally, this type of situation doesn't bother me.

The availabilty of almost any residency & fellowship, as well as the patient diversity is what is most important---not the faculty diversity. The curriculum is already set by certain standards. You will find all of this at OSU, so discontinue your attempts to state otherwise.

 

[jtorres]

i know at TCOM there is an osteopathic hospital right across the street from the school and you also do rotations at john peter smith county hospital. and trust me, you WILL see all kinds of stuff at jps. all kinds of stuff!

 

[Boomer]

It physically IS the largest osteopathic hospital in the country. It is a school affiliated institution, so obviously the faculty there will likely be from the institution. Who cares if one doctor is from Kansas City and one is from Kirksville or both are from Tulsa? We all learn the same thing. I suppose if your concern is going to a school that has faculty unfamiliar with the school itself, then you can seek alternatives. Personally, this type of situation doesn't bother me.

The availabilty of almost any residency & fellowship, as well as the patient diversity is what is most important---not the faculty diversity. The curriculum is already set by certain standards. You will find all of this at OSU, so discontinue your attempts to state otherwise.

After you start medical school, you can tell me what matters. Now that I'm finished, I know what is important. And I know what to look for.

Diversity is important. If you don't think so, and it doesn't bother you, so be it. But you cannot dispute what I have stated. I have never said that TRMC doesn't get good pathology, or that the teaching is bad (in fact, I stated the opposite), but rather that the feeling you get is that you are in a frat house in Stillwater.

Feel free to look at faculty and housestaff at well known allopathic hospitals. While graduates from the affiliated school may make up a plurality of the staff, generally, they do not make up the majority . That is what I stated, and you have yet to rebutt.

 

[OSUdoc08]

It is not needed, since your argument doesn't pertain to the quality of the facilities or its education.

 

[Jalopycat]

If you're president of AMSA, arent you required to vote for John Kerry anyway? I used to like AMSA until they started sending me anti-war emails. Please. Enough.

You noticed that too? And I thought it was just me! And to verify, I took, a look at their website. They are against medical malpractice.

Yep, you gotta vote for Kerry if you're going to be president of AMSA!


Hey Boomer, it's good to see you post again. Are you coming back to Oklahoma for residency?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Bush/Cheney '04

 

[Robz]

Bush/Cheney '04

here here....

(watch out or were heading to the dum dum dooo...everyone forum!)

 

[Robz]

Just to get back on track with this thread....I will say one wish I had during the interview season.

If I could ask for one thing.....and one thing only during my interviews at DO schools is I would LOVE a tour or at least some interaction (media, video, walk through) of some of the clinical hospitals. Almost all of my alloptahic interviews (except one) offered a hospital tour but none of my osteopathic ones. Yes, I know its easier to do a tour if a hospital is on campus but it would be nice to see/understand the 3rd/4th years during the interviews.

I didn't interview at TCOM or OSUCOM but I would assume they had a hospital tour due to the promixity of thier schools to the hospital?

 

[DireWolf]

Just to get back on track with this thread....I will say one wish I had during the interview season.

If I could ask for one thing.....and one thing only during my interviews at DO schools is I would LOVE a tour or at least some interaction (media, video, walk through) of some of the clinical hospitals. All my alloptahic interviews (except one) offered a hospital tour but none of my osteopathic ones. Yes, I know its easier to do a tour if a hospital is on campus but it would be nice to see/understand the 3rd/4th years during the interviews.

I didn't interview at TCOM or OSUCOM but I would assume they had a hospital tour due to the promixity of thier schools to the hospital?

OSU does conduct a hospital tour on interview day.

In light of what has been stated in this thread, I have to agree with Boomer. While OSU does have a great advantage with its own teaching hospital, it does lack diversity.

In speaking with residents and attendings at some large allopathic institutions, they all mentioned diversity as a huge component of residency training and medical student clinical education. There are always several ways to solve a problem, and having many residents/attendings from the same institution considerably narrows your diagnostic and treatment perspectives.

I just started 3rd year, so I am no expert on what constitutes superior clinical education. But in speaking with many residents/attendings at a couple large academic hospitals, here is what I have gathered.

1. Having one large teaching hospital is very important. This "home hospital" serves as the base for research, experienced faculty, and a wide array of pathology. In this sense OSU, TCOM, etc. do have a big advantage over other schools.

2. Having a couple affiliates that are geographically close by. Usually this means a VA medical center and a community hospital. Here students can see even more pathology, learn how things work outside of an academic facility, and can gain insights from different attendings. I'm not sure how many DO schools have this kind of network, but many allopathic schools do. The key here is that these affiliates are geographically close, so students do not have to move, commute, etc. large distances.

3. Having many affiliates (i.e. 10+) can actually be a disadvantage. Obviously if students have the opportunity to rotate at some reputable programs that are relatively close by (i.e. Chicago schools), then this would be an advantage. But having tons of affiliates spread all over the state or country is more of a negative than a positive. The teaching is less likely to be consistent, and these affiliates may not have enough experience dealing with medical students. OSU, like many other schools does send students to various sites around the state for certain rotations. But by keeping a lot of them within driving distance of Tulsa, I think it works. Ideally, all of our rotations would be in Tulsa, but at least we don't have to relocate around other parts of the country.

Again, the above comments have been gathered from residents/attendings and not myself.

And I can only comment on OSU in regards to the above. I do have friends at many other DO schools, but that would be second-hand info, so I will refrain from commenting on their clinical education.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Actually, I'm going with OSUdoc on this one. His friend says you have to go out of state on rotations and AZCOM students on the board say it. I believe they have more credence then you since you're just a 1st year there.Let's put it this way. You can stay in state for all rotations but you're probably going to get a weak clinical education.

Given your trollish history, I sure wouldn't take an endorsement from you as a compliment. For example:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=132633

If his friend said we did our rotations with veterinarians, would you believe this too? 🙂

 

[sia_simba]

I think NYCOM has good clinical sites for your 3rd and 4th year. I've also heard NOVA was pretty good too down in Florida

 

[Eyecon82]

Bush/Cheney '04

Yea...and the glory of USA will go down the garbage if those 2 monkeys are elected again

I'm not a democrat or republican....I vote by a case by case basis

 

[misyel]

Yea...and the glory of USA will go down the garbage if those 2 monkeys are elected again

I'm not a democrat or republican....I vote by a case by case basis

Hey, don't insult monkeys, what did they ever do to you?

 

[Robz]

Yea...and the glory of USA will go down the garbage if those 2 monkeys are elected again

I'm not a democrat or republican....I vote by a case by case basis

yay!!! Kerry's hate campaign does work! WOoooooooooo!

(sad when people don't vote FOR someone but against them.....if you vote then vote for someone thats good for the office not just to try and get someone out)

Back to the topic or to the everyone forum with this!

 

[pafbdoc]

In an effort to get back to the original topic... i'm gonna wave my flag for nycom for a minute. I think one of the best things about this school are the clinical rotation sites. Almost all are located in the metro NYC area, which means you almost never have to move unless you want to. There's some decent hospitals in the mix too...

off the top of my head:
-Long Island Jewish- 500+ beds, major teaching affiliate of Albert Einstein
-North Shore Univ Manhasset- major teaching affiliate of NYU School of Medicine, level I trauma center, 600+ beds, "best hospital in America according to the AARP"-- whatever that means
-St. Barnabus- level I trauma center, teaching affiliate of Cornell
-Maimonides medical Center- teaching affiliate of Downstate Medical School
-Newark Beth Israel- teaching affiliate of Mt. Sinai
-Nassau Univ Med Center- level I trauma center, 1000+ beds, teaching affiliate of Stonybrook
-Griffin Hospital- teaching affiliate of Yale

Hence, lots of large academic centers, which often arent found too often in the DO clinical world.

 

[jhug]

SJS...lucky and oklahoma suffer from a severe form of S.L.O.C.

Best bet: OSU-COM
Worst bet: AZCOM

Uneducated....i believe i read that you were wait-listed at azcom and didn't find out till late of acceptance (once you'd already decided on oklahoma??)
so bitterness is understood (although it still makes you uneducated, just passionately uneducated)

It is also the LARGEST OSTEOPATHIC HOSPITAL IN THE NATION.

you may soon see (once you start school😉)that biggest isn't always best...personally i really enjoy having a friendship with my classmates and professors and deans...you don't get lost in the numbers.

True, you don't HAVE to leave the state for rotations, however, most CHOOSE to do so for the quality of their education

yet another uneducated comment, rather un-lucky-ish. Again, hearsay is a beast, and most often an misguided one.
The most vocal (as seen on both on sdn and peoples "friends") are usually A: the laziest, thus they have negative experiences that are always "someone elses fault", B: malignant personalities whose sole purpose in life is to suffer from SLOC, or finally, C: ignorant.
AZCOM's clinical education is wonderful, why do we year in and year out have a 100% FIRST TIME pass rate? Phoenix has plenty of opportunities, some not available until your fourth year, but that is not all that unusual. The preceptor idea is excellent, but you must do the work to ensure that you are with a doctor that meets your needs/personality. You have ample opportunity to do hospital rotations...don't let the malignants fool you.
To the OP, although i would not say AZCOM is the "BEST" in clinical ed, simply because of what someone else previously said...it is very objective, i don't think there can be a "best", AZCOM will provide you a quality education that, with work on your part, will take you where you want to go.

 

[DireWolf]

AZCOM's clinical education is wonderful.

Why do so many at your school have negative things to say about the clinical years at AZCOM? There is an entire thread dedicated to it. Since you have not started 3rd year yet, it would be difficult to understand where they are coming from.

 

[Boomer]

yet another uneducated comment, rather un-lucky-ish. Again, hearsay is a beast, and most often an misguided one.

Hey pal, I'm an alumnus of your beloved school, so you may wish to think twice before considering my comment uneducated or based on hearsay. I know what the vast majority of my classmates chose to do for their education. What about yours? What do you know FIRSTHAND of AZCOM's rotations?

 

[jhug]

Since you have not started 3rd year yet, it would be difficult to understand where they are coming from.

i find it harder to understand if you don't even attend the school (or not in the same time zone for that matter)
boomer, buddy, that was copied from a post by luck, not you. You, obviously, know more about how things run our last two years...maybe i have lucked out, i've had a great preceptor experience and have met 4 different people (outside the school) with whom i'll rotate here in the valley. My point in posting is that AZCOM will take you where you want to go...did you not find that to be true for yourself and your classmates?
no offense was meant in my post, least of all toward you.

 

[DireWolf]

i find it harder to understand if you don't even attend the school (or not in the same time zone for that matter)

I'm not trying to comment on AZCOM's clinicals. I was simply reiterating what some AZCOM students have said on this board. If you would have read my original post, I stated that I cannot comment firsthand on any school but my own.

 

[Luck]

i find it harder to understand if you don't even attend the school (or not in the same time zone for that matter)
boomer, buddy, that was copied from a post by luck, not you.

Actually, jhug, you duped yourself. THAT WAS A POST FROM BOOMER NOT ME!!!

So yes I would believe Boomer's comment that you don't have to leave Arizona but it's better if you want a good clinical education. His word would be more credible than yours sir jhug, especially now since it appears you cannot even quote right. 😱 😉

Here it is from the first page of this thread.

AZCOM has been discussed at GREAT length on this board.....True, you don't HAVE to leave the state for rotations, however, most CHOOSE to do so for the quality of their education.

 

[jhug]

Let's put it this way. You can stay in state for all rotations but you're probably going to get a weak clinical education. This is why most AZCOM students leave the state to get better rotations.

stated by luck, post #14, july 1st at 12:51 am...now, if you are copying what boomer said at some other point in time that would be tough for me to know, especially since boomer hadn't even posted on this thread yet don't you think?
unless.....luck IS boomer!!!! 🙂