Which Top Schools Allow Redoing Undergrad?

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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quitethenovelty

quitethenovelty

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  1. Pre-Medical
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I tried to do pre-med in undergrad, but didn't get great enough grades to merit continuing, and so I switched over to Econ and am going to get a doctorate in that so I can teach and do research for a while. But I really want to go back and become a doctor (neurosurgeon) after a while, maybe 4 or 5 years of teaching and research, and so am trying to figure out which American (seems necessary for matriculation into a US med school) undergrad schools (top ones) take on people redoing their undergrad coursework. I think this time I will major in the biological sciences.
 
It really doesn't matter what undergrad school you go to. If you've already got your undergrad degree, just take the prerequisite classes for medical school at any four-year college. Your state school will work nicely. You might need to declare a major, but you don't actually have to get a second degree.
 
Yeah, as Chip said you just need the prereqs. If you mean a school that would let you start over GPA wise, that isn't going to happen. The gpa reported to medical schools is determined by The AMCAS application service, not your undergrad institution. You'll apply thru AMCAS (and/or the DO equivalent) and report all college courses that you've ever taken. They calculate a GPA and send it to medical schools.

AMCAS uses all courses in the calc (if you retake a course, both are counted) and the DO app service allows grade replacement. ( if you retake a course they only count the second one in the calc I believe).

Most undergrad schools will let non degree seeking students take courses, so you don't need to get a whole new degree. You just won't have priority over the degree seeking students if a course fills up. A formal post bac or SMP could be an option but not necessary if you don't want to spend the money on one.
 
What I want to do is get a Neurobiology or Biology/Political Science degree, with the associated coursework. I don't think it's over the top to do this, but would people see it as excessive or redundant? I also think that it's a lot more professional to actually get a degree since I'm, you know, matriculated. Conversely, if I just take the prereqs and leave after two years, I suppose that would put a lot more weight onto my prior coursework, which is not medically-related for the most part, and isn't even the life sciences. I would be truly uncompetitive against applicants who actually have alot of exposure to biology courses of various kinds, undergrad research experiences, international health service, et cetera. My money and time spent on completing prereqs would be a joke. And, the good part is that I've often heard of people having somehow redone their entire undergrad experiences. So I am hoping this applies to me too.
 
If your goal is medical school, there is absolutely no point in spending three years getting a second degree when you can do the prereqs in one. It doesn't matter what your previous major was; all majors have roughly equal acceptance rates to medical school. I had no problems getting in with a European History major and no science classes except the prereqs and astronomy. The question of my major was never brought up, and I got more interview invites (2 MD, 6 DO) than I knew what to do with. When you hear of people redoing their entire undergrad, it probably refers to the Texas Fresh Start program, which allows you to erase all college coursework over ten years old. That's a radical solution suitable only for nontrads with irreparable pasts. You probably don't qualify, so your job is to do well in the prereqs and retake classes as necessary to improve your GPA.

What is your current cumulative GPA, including all college credits you've ever taken?
 
My GPA as of last fall is: 3.21. Pretty dismal, if you ask me. Congratulations on your interview invites, @Chip N Sawbones, by the way!

I'm quite bent on getting a new degree. The problem will be finding a good school that will let me do this. @wholeheartedly, why do you say it wouldn't happen? Is there some kind of tacit code that prevents this?
 
quitethenovelty said:
I'm quite bent on getting a new degree. The problem will be finding a good school that will let me do this. @wholeheartedly, why do you say it wouldn't happen? Is there some kind of tacit code that prevents this?
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I didn't say anywhere in my post that undergrad schools won't let you get a whole new degree. In fact, I technically have 3 bachelors degrees, but I didn't do that to get into medical school. I just noted that it might be overkill in a lot of cases depending on how much GPA repair you need. It's also a lot of money when you're staring down a med school debt load afterwards. As far as being professional goes, it isn't unprofessional for students to just come back and do pre reqs. Plenty of people do this and schools are well aware of this, most don't have any problem with it. They realize it isn't time or cost effective to have ppl do a whole new degree.

What I said wouldn't happen is that you wouldn't get a redo on your GPA with a new degree. Some ppl think they'll be able to get another degree and only have the second one count for GPA and I just wanted to make sure ppl know it doesn't work that way for medical school.

Also, as Chip stated med schools don't favor science grads as long as you do well in the pre reqs and the mcat. In fact I believe statistics show humanities majors have a higher acceptance rate than bio.

But you have to weigh your entire package ( gpa/#credits taken, extracurriculars, clinical experiences, age and how long it'll take you to apply) to figure out what route you want to take. I'd be surprised if after a phd and a few years of work exp getting a whole new degree still seems like a good option when you still have 4 years of medical school plus at least 3 years of residency and maybe a fellowship tacked on afterwards (7 yrs residency for neurosurgery).

A few ppl around here have done a whole new degree to get their GPA in the range they wanted in order to apply and hopefully they will chime in here. A lot of people will just do the prereqs and some other upper division sci courses (along with the other ECs) and apply.

There's a good thread on here about Nontrad low GPA success stories that has some excellent posts about what others have done that worked for them. Definitely check it out if you haven't already. there's some really great information here in the Nontrad forum. Welcome btw. 🙂
 
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My cGPA after undergrad was sub 3.0, but showed a strong upward trend. I got out of medicine completely for a few years after graduation, then came back, got an advanced EMS certification, and retook Orgo 1 and 2, and Physics 2 at CC while working. Then I applied to a formal post-bacc program, crushed it, and am sitting in my med school classroom typing this up currently.

I agree with Chip that getting a whole new degree with your cGPA is overkill. Since you do say you are bent on the new degree, make sure it's a degree that you can crush. Your undergrad major will mean absolutely zilch once you matriculate to med school. Neurobiology may help you with some material in med school, but it's hard and if you can't get the 4.0 this time around then you've only shot yourself in the foot.

And I'd also like to say that it's admirable that you want to go into Neurosurgery. If I was younger and not married I'd probably be looking at it real hard too. But you have to know that it's one of the most competitive specialties out there. You must be willing to keep your options open in med school and accept the fact that even if you have the stats it just might not happen.

Your plan certainly won't keep you out of med school, and I wish you luck in your endeavor. Going into medicine is certainly a wild ride. Enjoy it.
 
I decided not to do a full second degree because I didn't want to have to take all the random requirements. I took almost 100credits postbacc so I could have but there were school and major specific required courses ie writing, fine arts, invertebrate anatomy, plant physiology, etc, that I would have needed.
 
What nobody seems to want to mention is that there are no academic do-overs, unless you live in Texas or Michigan, and the TX/MI do-overs don't get you anywhere near a top school.

Every college grade you ever received counts in a med school app. Colleges don't get to pick what grades are included, and you don't get to pick. Even in TX & MI, you have to report every class you ever took and the grade you received. Even if you retake coursework that isn't counted in GPA calcs for DO schools, you still have to list every class and grade. If you fail to submit a college transcript, you are committing easily-detectable fraud.

The idea that from a non-science 3.21 you could then do an econ PhD and then go to med school means you need to stop watching TV, stop posting in online forums, and start putting work into comprehending the complexity and rigor of your fields of interest. Have some respect for the seriousness of academics and practice. At this point, you sound like my 8 year old niece who wants to be an astronaut and a paleontologist.

Best of luck to you.
 
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DrMidlife said:
What nobody seems to want to mention is that there are no academic do-overs, unless you live in Texas or Michigan, and the TX/MI do-overs don't get you anywhere near a top school.
.
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Lol, I mentioned it twice and Chip touched on it too, but I agree the OP should do a little more research on the career goals. I'm all for taking time out and experiencing/enjoying life for a bit before diving in to medical school, but getting a phd to just work for a few years then doing more undergrad to get into medical school doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense long term.
 
At this point, you sound like my 8 year old niece who wants to be an astronaut AND a paleontologist.
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This is easily my all-time favorite of statements posted to SDN. Thank you, Dr. Midlife, for the smile.
 
DrMidlife said:
At this point, you sound like my 8 year old niece who wants to be an astronaut and a paleontologist.

Best of luck to you.
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I would say that this is more plausible of a dream. Expect manned missions to Mars and asteroids in the next 30 years... fossilized life is always possible...though maybe not probable at this point in our knowledge.
 
Okay, so I did better research, and the result is that I think I will go with UC Berkeley's Neurobiology program. I can do lab research with one of their faculty early on, and being such a large public university, there is a fairly good chance that I will be permitted to, how to say this, make more undergrad scribbles on top of my past undergrad scribbles. Whether or not there is a cutoff for college coursework to report, I think the more recent degree will count significantly more weightily.

Hey, nothing wrong with being two things - @DrMidlife, your niece can be an astronaut first, and then a paleontologist afterwards! Now, if she wants to be an astronaut at the tenderized age of 90, she might find herself faced with some stiff obstacles, but I think what she wants is totally reasonable! 🙂
 
A 3.21 isn't bad at all. If you get perfect grades in the prereq classes you'll end up with something like a 3.4. That's enough to make you a very strong DO candidate and have a fighting chance for MD, depending on your MCAT of course. If you really want another degree, by all means go for it, as long as you realize that you will be doing much more than is necessary to get into a good medical school. Remember also that every year you spend in undergrad is one year less you have do do a doctor's job and collect a doctor's paycheck.

If you are going to go to California for this second degree and you are currently a resident of a different state, try to keep residency in the other state. Better yet, go someplace like Texas or North Carolina for undergrad and establish residency there. Even if you have to pay OOS tuition for undergrad classes, the savings in med school tuition will more than make up for it, and it will be easier to get into a good med school there.
 
I concur, @Chip N Sawbones, that establishing residency is an important step; one that could save $100,000 or more, even, and this is just for the short-run. I saw that UC Berkeley's OOS tuition is $35,000, and the in-state tuition is approximately $11,000. So we're talking $25,000 per year, determined solely by residency. I think California residency is definitely a plus. But right now, I'm a Hawaii resident. Don't know which one I want, but again, $25,000 a year is a nice savings, I would say. Which DO program are you in, Chip?

I've looked at postbaccs, @whatbout2morrow, but they're just not exhaustive enough for the preparation I want to cultivate. Most of them want a 3.5 undergrad GPA, which I don't have, or no prior coursework in the prereqs, which I don't have, or just aren't that great of programs. The one postbacc I really looked at was, ironically, UC Berkeley's Extension program, where one could take up to, I believe, 3 years to take as many classes as he or she could fit in.
 
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quitethenovelty said:
I concur, @Chip N Sawbones, that establishing residency is an important step; one that could save $100,000 or more, even, and this is just for the short-run. I saw that UC Berkeley's OOS tuition is $35,000, and the in-state tuition is approximately $11,000. So we're talking $25,000 per year, determined solely by residency. I think California residency is definitely a plus. But right now, I'm a Hawaii resident. Don't know which one I want, but again, $25,000 a year is a nice savings, I would say. Which DO program are you in, Chip?
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California residency is definitely a big fat minus when it comes to getting into medical school. Tuition is reasonable but it's insanely difficult to get accepted with low stats. Try to remain a Hawaii resident instead. Check the instate requirements for Hawaii's med school first. Sometimes state med schools have requirements that are more than just being a state resident.

I got accepted to Tulane and I've got an interview invite at Alaska's WWAMI program/UW. Both are MD programs. I declined the DO acceptances after getting into Tulane.
 
Congratulations on all your acceptances!

For those in a boat like mine, if you're interested, California residency can be established after 366 (I'm guessing continuous) days of physical presence in California, finding a place to live in California (probably not a dorm room), registering a vehicle within 20 days of arriving in California, voting in elections and paying taxes, and that's most of it. Nice!
 
A dorm room will qualify as a residence for anyone crazy enough to try and establish California residency for the purpose of getting into medical school.
 
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Because California is a large state with lots of decently good undergrad schools, and so there are loads of California residents applying to medical school? I think while state diversity is sought by medical schools for their collection of diverse and competent minds, there is a point where individual competency exceeds state residency, and this point occurs when the adcom admits enough students from a variety of backgrounds, leaving the rest of the slots open to applicants who will contribute scientifically or ethically or socially, and if a good number of these slots go to California residents, then maybe it's because they're just different from everyone else. Medical schools, I think, don't say they want 2 people from Arizona, 2 people from Nevada, and 2 people from California. I think what they do is holistically approach applications such that the middleground, between what the medical school's code of diversity and their mission for intellectual commitment, are, and maybe California has a reputation for having lots of nerds, but nerds won't necessarily be competent in the medical field, per se, or maybe you have seen data reflecting that California residents fare worse on admissions. Whatever your argument may be, I don't see California residency as any worse than, and is possibly better than, Hawaii residency. Sorry.
 
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quitethenovelty said:
Whatever your argument may be, I don't see California residency as any worse than, and is possibly better than, Hawaii residency. Sorry.
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You might not see it that way, but he's actually right. California is a notoriously hard state for residents to get accepted into medical school and a lot of highly qualified (read high gpa & mcat plus extras) CA residents don't get in and wind up in other places.


If you're going to move somewhere else and want to give yourself the best chance of getting in somewhere, Texas is probably the best way to go. Plus the medical school tuition rates there are some of the lowest in the country. If it's been long enough after undergrad you can take advantage of the Texas Fresh Start program (only works in Texas with Texas schools) to help with any gpa issues..

There's a book everyone uses called the MSAR that you'll want to check out when it gets close to the time you want to apply. It breaks down admissions statistics for all the schools either mean or median gpa and mcat plus ranges and how heavily the school favors state residents vs. non-residents, does it have a primary case emphasis or not. It gives the percentage of students who have volunteer service, percentage who have research experience. It gives you an overview of the school and it's mission as well. This is one of the tools people use to gauge whether or not they will be competitive for certain schools and guides where they should apply.
 
Get a copy of the MSAR and look up the average matriculant stats at California schools. The average for all the UC's is something like a 33 MCAT and 3.7 GPA. Hawaii's average is a 30 MCAT and 3.6 GPA. Not only are the stats lower, there are also far less Hawaiian residents applying per class seat. The data I have is a year old, but it shows 207 applicants for 50 instate seats. Those are pretty good odds as far as medical schools go. California schools get something like 3,500 applicants for 110 instate seats at each UC school. Those are pretty low odds. Unless you get a freakishly high MCAT, you will have a very difficult time getting into a California school. There are simply too many highly qualified applicants for the number of available spots in the class. Look at the numbers, play it smart and maintain residency in Hawaii, or establish residency in almost any state except California.
 
The caveat here is that I'm not trying to apply only to California medical schools. Sure, I will apply to them, but there are lots of others that are just as fascinating.

The California applicant stats are better, I guess, but marginally. But, like I wrote earlier, it doesn't matter as much as people might otherwise believe. If they're more - I don't know if this is the right word, but - competent, then good on them! In the same way adcoms diversify state residencies, they also don't (hopefully) go the completely opposite direction and ignore good stats in deference to statehood.

Boy, I sure am looking forward to being a California resident! 🙂
 
quitethenovelty said:
The caveat here is that I'm not trying to apply only to California medical schools. Sure, I will apply to them, but there are lots of others that are just as fascinating.

The California applicant stats are better, I guess, but marginally. But, like I wrote earlier, it doesn't matter as much as people might otherwise believe. If they're more - I don't know if this is the right word, but - competent, then good on them! In the same way adcoms diversify state residencies, they also don't (hopefully) go the completely opposite direction and ignore good stats in deference to statehood.

Boy, I sure am looking forward to being a California resident! 🙂
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There were over 5000 CA applicants last year for just over 1000 first year allopathic positions. Only around 800 actually went to CA students. Over 1600 CA applicants had to leave the state to start med school making CA the largest exporter of pre meds in the nation. UCLA alone contributed over 840 applicants!
 
Either you are trolling, or you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. Either way, have fun being a neurosurgeon. It's a pretty realistic plan.
 
quitethenovelty said:
Boy, I sure am looking forward to being a California resident! 🙂
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You don't have to believe us, but you're shooting yourself in the foot by ignoring knowledgable posters about a process you don't seem to know much about, no offense. Getting into medical school is a process full of hoops you have to jump through and a lot of them you aren't going to like or won't seem to make sense, but that doesn't mean you can avoid doing them. You can have all of the ideas you want about how things should be, but the reality is something different. It's something like 60% of the people who apply to medical school each year don't get in and if you don't go more into "I need to learn about this mode" vs. "I'm going to do this my way and ignore good information mode" you're signing yourself up to be one of them.

A jump from a 29 MCAT to a 33 isn't marginal. Those students with high gpa's and MCAT scores also have all of the other things medical schools are looking for as well (compassion, integrity, strong history of community service, good communication skills, etc).

As far as being a California resident applying outside of California, that's problematic as well. A residents state schools are usually people's safety schools or schools people have a good chance of getting into. States (and thus taxpayers) invest a lot of money into medical schools and it's in the best interest of their investments to train residents of the state who will stay in the state and practice. It's been shown that where someone trains is a strong predictor of where they will stay.

So most state school's have quotas on how many students from out of state (OOS) that they will accept and for a lot of school's it's a really small number. For example the University of North Dakota only accepts like maybe 8-10 out of state residents for its class some of those are locked for the INMED program for Native American students and the rest are for students from states without any medical schools and a couple of MN residents, preferably those who live near the ND/MN border. U of MN and U of Oregon and a bunch of other schools all heavily favor instate residents, or if you are OOS you need strong ties to the area and much stronger stats than the instate applicants because there are fewer slots and they can be more selective.

It isn't like undergrad where you can just apply where ever and have a decent shot at getting in. The private schools are often quite a bit more competitive, not to mention expensive. There area always exceptions, but with all of the time energy and money that goes into this process it's not a good idea to plan on being one of the exceptions.

You're going to do what you want, but people on here are trying to give you helpful and accurate information to increase your odds of success. Don't go into this blind.
 
Some of the best information on SDN is in this thread and I believe it's all fallen on deaf ears.

Oh well.
 
ChiroDC said:
Some of the best information on SDN is in this thread and I believe it's all fallen on deaf ears.

Oh well.
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You can lead a horse away from California but you can't make him drink. In cases like these it's nice to know that there are lots of lurkers who are probably more willing to listen to what has been said in the thread.
 
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Even if you don't think a Hawaii residency is worth keeping (side note: they have one of the most transparent point systems they use to choose applicants for interviews) why do you want to establish a California residency so much? Just cuz it's California or do you think it's an advantage for med school or none of the above?
 
anguisette said:
Even if you don't think a Hawaii residency is worth keeping (side note: they have one of the most transparent point systems they use to choose applicants for interviews) why do you want to establish a California residency so much? Just cuz it's California or do you think it's an advantage for med school or none of the above?
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Stop trying to have a rational conversation with a troll/crazy person. This person is talking about majoring in econ, going to a PhD in econ, re-doing undergrad for a bio degree after a PhD, getting state residency at the worst state for medical applicants, go to med school after and then become a neurosurgeon. Does this sound to you like a credible rational person?
 
Hi @anguisette: I don't think Hawaii residency is an advantage, and the benefit of California residency is $25,000 x 3 years, approximately. As far as getting into medical school goes, I think the preparation is at least 50% of the fun!

And, @TriagePreMed: I would imagine that I am rational in wanting to save at least $75,000 in undergrad expenses by receiving California residency. Additionally, this is by no means a life-long commitment, and there is a very good chance that I will get to practice medicine in the continental northeast, rather than in California; but to be honest, California is such a lovely place that I would be greatly honored to be their official resident, even if only for a short while. As far as credibility goes: I hope people don't dismiss me as a liar!
 
quitethenovelty said:
Hi @anguisette: I don't think Hawaii residency is an advantage, and the benefit of California residency is $25,000 x 3 years, approximately. As far as getting into medical school goes, I think the preparation is at least 50% of the fun!

And, @TriagePreMed: I would imagine that I am rational in wanting to save at least $75,000 in undergrad expenses by receiving California residency. Additionally, this is by no means a life-long commitment, and there is a very good chance that I will get to practice medicine in the continental northeast, rather than in California; but to be honest, California is such a lovely place that I would be greatly honored to be their official resident, even if only for a short while. As far as credibility goes: I hope people don't dismiss me as a liar!
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If you have a bachelors degree, international or not, forget ever getting into one of our UC campuses. On average each school takes about <35 second bachelor students, typically in engineering. The big CSU campuses (SFSU, East Bay, etc.) don't even accept 2nd bachelors students. With a PhD in economics added, you're crazy if you think any school will care to take you for second bachelors.
 
Slightly less than 35 is a substantial number to take in, I'd say. Especially if I've wanted to be a doctor since I was 6 but got bad grades the first time around in undergrad and then went on to get teaching and research experience in Economics so that I could try to fulfill my vocational goal of being in academic medicine a mere five years after the PhD has been awarded. Plus I'm really into extracurricular supporting activities, reading relevant literature, planning ahead, et cetera. 35 or so second-bachelor's students is a gift, quite frankly, people!
 
So lets say you continue with this plan and get a PhD in Economics AND your primary goal is to save cost on tuition, I think your biggest waste of time/money would be getting the second bachelors. In less than two years, you could fulfill all your prerequisites not taken plus a couple upper division bio courses and that would be all you need. It's silly to claim that being a CA resident would save you $75,000 when you wouldn't even need to spend that amount to begin with.
 
So all you do is accuse me of a mental disorder based exclusively on the grounds of my diction and your - may I say, haphazard and possessed - perceived reasoning? Is this how you're going to treat your patients? Accuse them of some overrated and stigmatized malady that first pops into your mind, like you're some kind of pop psychiatrist? Based on what? Seriously, you need to get your head out of that gutter.

Who doesn't agree that 35 is a generous number, considering many schools don't even accept re-entry students?

@galaxyx: The point is, again, to expand my knowledge base in the life sciences. I could get prereqs done in a postbacc program, if I fancied to. Minimalist survival is not my objective. I understand that this thread is not directly related to your life, and so you may have some bias against its propositions, but I feel this to be truthful and inspiring.
 
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I'm not biased. I don't actually care what you do with your life. It's your life. I was merely pointing out that your logic was flawed if saving money was the objective.
 
The objective is, to get a competitive education in the biological/life sciences AND be economical about it. But really, thanks for writing, I realize it's not your life.
 
what do you mean by competitive education? competitive to get into or one that will make you competitive for medical school?
 
What a strange word choice, "accuse".

Doctors don't "accuse" patients of diabetes or cancer or mental illness. You're in a forum full of med students and premeds. Do you think we aren't interested in signs and symptoms? Do you think "concern" is derogatory?

I am seriously concerned about your mental health. I think you should tell your primary care doctor what your career plans and rationale are. Print out this thread and bring it in. Sometimes what's cute in an 8 year old is pathology in an adult.

I wouldn't be paying any attention if you were just another delusional annoying underachiever. We see hordes of that. Or if you were just another overconfident ego junkie. Or if you were just another "I'm getting all A's starting tomorrow". This is something else entirely.

Although most likely you're a troll, in which case, carry on.
 
@DrMidlife: If you insinuate that I have some sort of mental condition once more, I will have to report you to the SDN on the charge of assault. I'm not joking, you are in no position to repeatedly throw ventured guesses about the biological state of my mind in such the fashion as you have been the past two posts, and definitely not on a public forum. That shows incredibly poor taste. You should consider tapering your, yes, accusations, or at the very least wild ventures, to more suitably take into account the principles of tact, manner, and integrity. Also, do not dismiss trolls as frivolous. That's just my opinion.
 
Might I suggest getting a second PhD, instead of (or in addition to) a second bachelors, when you go back to do your biological science course work? I'm not sure that a mere bachelors degree will confer to you the necessary depth of knowledge you will need to understand some of the intricacies of human biology.
 
ChE04 said:
Might I suggest getting a second PhD, instead of (or in addition to) a second bachelors, when you go back to do your biological science course work? I'm not sure that a mere bachelors degree will confer to you the necessary depth of knowledge you will need to understand some of the intricacies of human biology.
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well played, sir!
 
Are you indirectly suggesting that our present doctors do not have a sufficient background in the life sciences? Because my aim is to be a master of my craft, and not to be a stilted repository of knowledge in scientific peripheral matters that are not at all relevant to medicine (for instance, plants and green energy). I think this is the aim of medical schools as well, to teach their students to be masters of their craft. A PhD in biology may be nice, and I am actually aiming for the MSTP route which includes a PhD, but this is for formal research purposes, and not for the sake of biological prowess.
 
quitethenovelty said:
Are you indirectly suggesting that our present doctors do not have a sufficient background in the life sciences? Because my aim is to be a master of my craft, and not to be a stilted repository of knowledge in scientific peripheral matters that are not at all relevant to medicine (for instance, plants and green energy). I think this is the aim of medical schools as well, to teach their students to be masters of their craft. A PhD in biology may be nice, and I am actually aiming for the MSTP route which includes a PhD, but this is for formal research purposes, and not for the sake of biological prowess.
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Actually, YOU, were suggesting that doctors do not have sufficient background in the life sciences by saying that merely doing the pre-reqs and getting into medical school was not sufficient.
 
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