White coat ----> Sweating!

[JeffLebowski]

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Are there any social psych studies about this issue?

Any hospitals in the U.S that have tried to lose the white coats, and work in sneakers and t-shirts?

Who needs professionalism?

Why do doctors need to be respected?

...are you serious?

 

[Decepticon]

...are you serious?

They were serious questions, yeah. What problem would I have with the patients if I had my own practice, and dressed in jeans and a hoodie? Would the parkinson patients no longer trust my advice?

 

[LUBDUBB]

It's conformers vs. non-conformers.

If you want to look different go ahead - but don't be upset when people single you out.

I can't stand it when I walk down the street and stare at some poor soul with a blue mohawk and 11 facial piercings - and he/she gives me a "wtf are you looking at" look. Gee, I thought that's what you wanted, was for me to stare.

Underlying every social setting/situation are a set of informal rules which dictate the appropriate behavior/dress/speech etc. - it's called etiquette.

Finally, for all you young bloods still in the pre-all forums, just remember that each one of us tie-nazi SDNers will one day be tie-nazi attendings

 

[Decepticon]

It's conformers vs. non-conformers.

Underlying every social setting/situation are a set of informal rules which dictate the appropriate behavior/dress/speech etc. - it's called etiquette.

And these informal rules and the importance of them, is what I question. I have been to several hospitals in different parts of Europe, and it is not uncommon to see doctors not wearing ties, or doctors wearing jeans, even among the professors. Meaning: it doesn't seem like the association between clothing and profession is a nature-given constant that can't be tweaked.

Finally, for all you young bloods still in the pre-all forums, just remember that each one of us tie-nazi SDNers will one day be tie-nazi attendings

Well then consider this. Every stupid little detail you insist on forcing onto your subordinates, goes with a risk of creating passive-agressive resistance and conflict. Is it worth it?

 

[surrender903]

It's conformers vs. non-conformers.

If you want to look different go ahead - but don't be upset when people single you out.

I can't stand it when I walk down the street and stare at some poor soul with a blue mohawk and 11 facial piercings - and he/she gives me a "wtf are you looking at" look. Gee, I thought that's what you wanted, was for me to stare.

Underlying every social setting/situation are a set of informal rules which dictate the appropriate behavior/dress/speech etc. - it's called etiquette.

Finally, for all you young bloods still in the pre-all forums, just remember that each one of us tie-nazi SDNers will one day be tie-nazi attendings

you sound like an agent from the matrix.

 

[JeffLebowski]

And these informal rules and the importance of them, is what I question. I have been to several hospitals in different parts of Europe, and it is not uncommon to see doctors not wearing ties, or doctors wearing jeans, even among the professors. Meaning: it doesn't seem like the association between clothing and profession is a nature-given constant that can't be tweaked.

Just so you know - it doesn't make you original or progressive or better able to relate to your patients or any more likeable or clinically competent just because you're challenging the status quo. Is this really a status quo you want to challenge? One that doesn't add anything to your patient care? Dressing professionally adds positively to the patient care you deliver. Does a tie? No. Do dress socks? No. Does shaving? No. But together you're damn right they add to patient care. I'm sorry - they've done studies and the jury is in - patients want professional appearance. Can you get away with deviating from that expectation? Of course. Is it a big deal if you do it now and then in some small way? No. But you're talking about a whole attitude of "this doesn't matter and it doesn't affect the doctor I'm going to be" and that's just false.

Well then consider this. Every stupid little detail you insist on forcing onto your subordinates, goes with a risk of creating passive-agressive resistance and conflict. Is it worth it?

Wow...you're seriously worried about "creating passive-aggressive resistance and conflict"? This convention has been in place for over a century, the only thing that is causing this conflict is a new generation of self-entitled people who insist on bending the informal rules of doctor-patient care in a way that adds nothing to the patient's experience but allows them to humor their own comfort and sense of "heck, I'm so good I can wear blue jeans and everyone still thinks I'm a great doctor". Don't ask the people who are willing to invest the effort they knew they would be expected to invest from the get-go "Is it worth it?", we're not the ones making waves. Part of us would like to have a more casual day-to-day dress code as well, but it's selfish to insist on it and we're willing to meet patients' expectations for what professionalism is in our interactions with them, because it's not that big of a deal to iron our pants and throw on a tie. If you think higher-ups insisting on ties in those they supervise is "creating passive-aggressive resistance & conflict", that's just sad. I feel SO sorry for someone so fragile that they harbor deep emotional wounds at being chastised for failing to meet accepted standards of professionalism - when they knew damn well that it was the expectation from day one, knew patients and colleagues preferred it, and that it really didn't have to mean compromising comfort.

 

[LADoc84]

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[JaSam]

The short white coat looks stupid. It's like an embarassment wearing it. You end up sticking out like a sore thumb.

I've been wearing my white coat & tie for several days on the first week of each new rotation. I then change my dress based upon what my attending wears. If he does not wear a tie, then I'll stop wearing it after a while.

Since the white coat has becoming increasily bothersome, I wear it in front of my attending, but when I see patients on my own or write in charts, I will take it off. It is too uncomfortable for me (besides being ugly).

i hear ya my friend. I'm 6 foot 3 so that white coat looks even more ridiculous on me. I'm tempted to just swing it to the front and use it as a bib to catch food particles from getting on my nice dress shirts during lunch. Honestly, I don't know if anyone feels the same way but I feel kinda naked and exposed in a way wearing that thing cuz it doesn't cover anywhere from the end of my lower back down. So i constantly try to tug that thing down but to no avail. I just saw a chick in the hall today, 4th year, she's like 4 foot 10 and her white coat actually looks like an attending's long coat (so jealous in a way). I had to do a double take before realizing she wasn't an attending. Oh the disadvantages of being tall.

 

[JaSam]

They were serious questions, yeah. What problem would I have with the patients if I had my own practice, and dressed in jeans and a hoodie? Would the parkinson patients no longer trust my advice?

it is a valid question, completely agree. I think all these people stressing the importance of an absurd nazi-like adherence to some "time honored" dress code and fussing about the need to wear ties are missing the point and they themselves might be shallow in reality and completely immersed in their whole arrogant "I'm a doctor" image. I mean let's not even consider people who don't wear ties, what if I wore a bowtie. Would you look down on me for that? Because I'm different? What if I think bowties are more professional than wearing some long piece of fabric 80% of which you can't even see if you button up your white coat?

Don't judge a book by its cover folks. Just remember, the person who finished last in your class might be the best dresser but that don't make him/her a better doctor. She might be some chick that cares more about her hair and fingernails than the patients she's taking care of. The top student might not give a rats ass about his appearance cuz he's too busy taking care of business and aceing the boards.

Sorry for the rant, but I really can't believe how shallow some of you people are. IF looks were so damn important to you all, then there needs to be an addendum added to each school's medical dress code : IF you're in the lower 25% of your class in terms of physical appearance (ie. You're Fugly), you need to put on makeup (guys included) before coming into the hospital on top of dressing well so you can be at least presentable to your patients. And if your patient finds you unbearably repulsive, they should have the right to kick you out of the room and ask for another more "professional" looking doctor.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Don't judge a book by its cover folks. Just remember, the person who finished last in your class might be the best dresser but that don't make him/her a better doctor. She might be some chick that cares more about her hair and fingernails than the patients she's taking care of. The top student might not give a rats ass about his appearance cuz he's too busy taking care of business and aceing the boards.

The above is a glowing example of rationalization. I got news for you buddy --the best and brightest residents (at least in ophtho and ENT) that I've seen/known were also among the best dressed. Imagine that!

Listen, this argument will never end. We think you're a lazy bastard with no sense of style (rationalized with comments like "piece of cloth around my neck") and you think we're shallow. So be it...

God save you if you end up rotating where I'm a resident and you show up with no tie and a surfer attitude...😎

 

[LUBDUBB]

it is a valid question, completely agree. I think all these people stressing the importance of an absurd nazi-like adherence to some "time honored" dress code and fussing about the need to wear ties are missing the point and they themselves might be shallow in reality and completely immersed in their whole arrogant "I'm a doctor" image. I mean let's not even consider people who don't wear ties, what if I wore a bowtie. Would you look down on me for that? Because I'm different? What if I think bowties are more professional than wearing some long piece of fabric 80% of which you can't even see if you button up your white coat?

Don't judge a book by its cover folks. Just remember, the person who finished last in your class might be the best dresser but that don't make him/her a better doctor. She might be some chick that cares more about her hair and fingernails than the patients she's taking care of. The top student might not give a rats ass about his appearance cuz he's too busy taking care of business and aceing the boards.

Sorry for the rant, but I really can't believe how shallow some of you people are. IF looks were so damn important to you all, then there needs to be an addendum added to each school's medical dress code : IF you're in the lower 25% of your class in terms of physical appearance (ie. You're Fugly), you need to put on makeup (guys included) before coming into the hospital on top of dressing well so you can be at least presentable to your patients. And if your patient finds you unbearably repulsive, they should have the right to kick you out of the room and ask for another more "professional" looking doctor.

You have made a lot of generalizations here. I will try to address them.

1.The physical appearance of our face/body is a totally different topic from presenting yourself in a professional/respectable way. Your attempt to draw a parallel between the two is inadequate.

2. Your use of "her" to denote the person at the bottom of the class, and "his" to denote the kid at the top of the class - is sexist.

3. The dirty slobs who wear pajamas to class everyday are not the top students. They are the folks who are so overwhelmed they can't manage their time properly to shower and put on decent clothes in the moring, yet knowing that they will sit in front of a professor who respects students enough to wear a suit.

4. Yes Doctorsaib is uptight. Yes I am even more uptight.

5. For all you out there whose whitecoats look like you've been using it to mop under the urinals in the men's restroom, PM me and I will order you a new coat as a gift.

 

[JeffLebowski]

it is a valid question, completely agree. I think all these people stressing the importance of an absurd nazi-like adherence to some "time honored" dress code and fussing about the need to wear ties are missing the point and they themselves might be shallow in reality and completely immersed in their whole arrogant "I'm a doctor" image. I mean let's not even consider people who don't wear ties, what if I wore a bowtie. Would you look down on me for that? Because I'm different? What if I think bowties are more professional than wearing some long piece of fabric 80% of which you can't even see if you button up your white coat?

Don't judge a book by its cover folks. Just remember, the person who finished last in your class might be the best dresser but that don't make him/her a better doctor. She might be some chick that cares more about her hair and fingernails than the patients she's taking care of. The top student might not give a rats ass about his appearance cuz he's too busy taking care of business and aceing the boards.

Sorry for the rant, but I really can't believe how shallow some of you people are. IF looks were so damn important to you all, then there needs to be an addendum added to each school's medical dress code : IF you're in the lower 25% of your class in terms of physical appearance (ie. You're Fugly), you need to put on makeup (guys included) before coming into the hospital on top of dressing well so you can be at least presentable to your patients. And if your patient finds you unbearably repulsive, they should have the right to kick you out of the room and ask for another more "professional" looking doctor.

Alright your first two paragraphs were flat-out cliched opinions ("don't judge a book by its cover"? You've got to be kidding me, it's obvious you're missing the point here...), so I won't even address those.

But your third paragraph I will comment on - we're not talking about physical attractiveness, we're talking about professionalism. They're two separate issues. That's also why it's annoying when girls tell each other they look "cute" when they're dressed for clinic, if I were them I'd be a little insulted. A doctor shouldn't be dressing to attract anyone at work, they should dress according to the expectations of his (or her, for Lubdubb) position.

No one's judging anyone else for not looking attractive or having poor taste. We're saying your judgment is off if you think it's unreasonable to expect a doctor to simply wear a clean & tidy shirt & tie and slacks and dress shoes in a clinical setting. I mean jesus, some of you act like your civil rights are being violated. You know what happens to a mailman who refuses to wear the uniform? He gets fired. Fireman? Fired. Police officer? Fired. Lawyer? Fired. Open your own clinic and you can do whatever you want, but I'll have no pity for you when you get hell for deviating from expectations of personal appearance in a professional context in the clinical setting.

 

[LADoc84]

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[45408]

But your third paragraph I will comment on - we're not talking about physical attractiveness, we're talking about professionalism. They're two separate issues. That's also why it's annoying when girls tell each other they look "cute" when they're dressed for clinic, if I were them I'd be a little insulted. A doctor shouldn't be dressing to attract anyone at work, they should dress according to the expectations of his (or her, for Lubdubb) position.

srsly? I think I look great every day. these color combos are killer.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Thankfully there is the Match...

I am going to choose a program with less-uptight people. A program with no requirements for ties, and heck, maybe not even the white coat.

I don't think there's anything wrong with dressing professional, but I do believe you can still dress professionally without a tie. A tie is not that essential to professional dress. I think the shirt and pants are a lot more obvious to the patient.

Aren't there some hospitals that have banned ties for promoting the spread of bacteria? I remember a few studies have been published about this. I hope the trend catches on quickly.

One thing to note - most of us on this forum are within a few years of each other (in terms of education - ie. MS3,4,intern,resident). So, with that said, I feel as though intimidating your fellow colleague by saying that you will "do something" if they don't wear a tie is quite inappropriate. Remember, you may be a resident and we may be medical students, but we won't be medical students forever.

Things brings me to another point - does anyone ever feel as though their attendings have no recollection of what it is like to be a student or resident anymore? Especially considering that the amount of information each year is exponentially increasing, and so are the requirements to graduate??

Cool man. Just show up on interview day without a tie.

Actually, why don't you leave your blazer at home too if you want b/c it's kind of uncomfortable wearing that thing. A pair of wrinkled khakis and a button-down shirt with rolled up sleeves should be fine. Gives you that "I'm working hard" look.

Then tell all the other interviewees that they're too uptight b/c they're dressed up.

Just make sure you're next to a fax machine, computer and at least 2 phones the day after Match day.

G'luck!

 

[JeffLebowski]

Aren't there some hospitals that have banned ties for promoting the spread of bacteria? I remember a few studies have been published about this. I hope the trend catches on quickly.

Yes, but it's a big smoke screen for the "casual campaign". There's another thread about this. The summary is you could just have them button their white coat, tuck their tie into their shirt, or wear a vest to avoid the problem, there's no reason to totally outlaw the garment altogether. It's not like if you wear a tie, there's no way to keep it from dangling all over every patient's open wounds and mucosal membranes, that's ridiculous. And white coats are probably bacteria-laden, why don't we outlaw white coats too? And then once there's no white coats, I'm sure shirts and scrubs will no longer be protected, so they'll be bacteria laden, so we should probably outlaw those too.

srsly? I think I look great every day. these color combos are killer.

That Prowler is so hot right now.

 

[MSHell]

You have made a lot of generalizations here. I will try to address them.

1.The physical appearance of our face/body is a totally different topic from presenting yourself in a professional/respectable way. Your attempt to draw a parallel between the two is inadequate.

2. Your use of "her" to denote the person at the bottom of the class, and "his" to denote the kid at the top of the class - is sexist.

3. The dirty slobs who wear pajamas to class everyday are not the top students. They are the folks who are so overwhelmed they can't manage their time properly to shower and put on decent clothes in the moring, yet knowing that they will sit in front of a professor who respects students enough to wear a suit.

4. Yes Doctorsaib is uptight. Yes I am even more uptight.

5. For all you out there whose whitecoats look like you've been using it to mop under the urinals in the men's restroom, PM me and I will order you a new coat as a gift.

Count me in too.

I can't see how professional dress is an unreasonable expectation.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

Yes, but it's a big smoke screen for the "casual campaign". There's another thread about this. The summary is you could just have them button their white coat, tuck their tie into their shirt, or wear a vest to avoid the problem, there's no reason to totally outlaw the garment altogether. It's not like if you wear a tie, there's no way to keep it from dangling all over every patient's open wounds and mucosal membranes, that's ridiculous. And white coats are probably bacteria-laden, why don't we outlaw white coats too? And then once there's no white coats, I'm sure shirts and scrubs will no longer be protected, so they'll be bacteria laden, so we should probably outlaw those too.



That Prowler is so hot right now.

Exactly.

Or even a tie-clip. They're actually quite fashionable. They're not that expensive either -- $20-$40.

I wear one everyday. Chicks dig it and it keeps the "bacteria" away.

 

[45408]

And then once there's no white coats, I'm sure shirts and scrubs will no longer be protected, so they'll be bacteria laden, so we should probably outlaw those too.



That Prowler is so hot right now.

Topless doctors???

 

[JeffLebowski]

Topless doctors???

Or docless topters. Think of the zanyness!

 

[187502]

I can't imagine not wearing my white coat just to keep the various crap off my clothes, but I do hate the sweating. It's just one of those things one has to live with I guess.