Who would you rather hire as an associate/partner?

[dyk343]

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Would you rather hire

1) A resident (student) who has very strong work ethic but makes mistakes, or doesn't get as high of grades. "I think we should try this"

OR

2) A resident (student) that has a given talent, gets the job done but doesnt seem to try very hard at all. "ehh whatever, just do this"

My reason for asking this question is that in my class there seems to be several students that dont go to class, "claim" to not study very hard, and are doing very well. Their work effort is minimal but they get done what needs to be done with higher than average marks.

There are others that study as hard as they can, work as hard as they can and come out with an average around the B range.

Thoughts?

 

[347932]

Would you rather hire

1) A resident (student) who has very strong work ethic but makes mistakes, or doesn't get as high of grades. "I think we should try this"

OR

2) A resident (student) that has a given talent, gets the job done but doesnt seem to try very hard at all. "ehh whatever, just do this"

My reason for asking this question is that in my class there seems to be several students that dont go to class, "claim" to not study very hard, and are doing very well. Their work effort is minimal but they get done what needs to be done with higher than average marks.

There are others that study as hard as they can, work as hard as they can and come out with an average around the B range.

Thoughts?

Hmmm interesting topic.

Its hard to distinguish whether those that don't have to try very hard to excel will do well as an employee. School is not a good marker of this as studying for an exam and "doing well" on a multiple choice test has nothing to so with how these people will transfer this knowledge into the clinical setting, and are "handy" and will make excellent surgeons.

School never came very easily to me. I am a bad test taker and had to make a concerted effort to excel due to having a hard time with the test taking skill. If I was half asleep on my couch and someone would ask me the same questions I would answer well. But put me in a room with a proctor, with a pencil in my hand and I'd just about have a meltdown.

Get these folks to residency and see how they work and what their work ethic is. That will leave a much more lasting impression on how they will react as an employee in someone's practice.

If someone has a strong work ethic, mistakes can be corrected and with someone like you mention, they are generally easier to teach. That is of course unless they are taught over and over again and still don't learn. No one wants to hire someone like that.
No work ethic, and getting by with the minimum effort doesn't fly in my book, no matter how "brilliant" this person is.

 

[dyk343]

Thanks for your response Kidsfeet.

 

[dyk343]

How do you know they aren't studying hard in their rooms or in the library? Most health professional students are full of crap when it comes to saying what their grades are and how much they study etc. If they weren't studying very hard and making good grades then that kind of academic talent should have landed them in medical school rather than podiatry school (just saying).

I for one do not attend class anymore because I feel I can get more done in my room or in a study lounge of my apartment complex then I could in class. The profs are great but our notes are really what they are going to be testing us on. Know the notes inside and out and you will be fine at Scholl (at least for the first year of school).

Now would you classify me as not working hard because I don't attend class??? That would be an unfounded and unfair claim because I know for a fact that I work my ass off, compared to some of my classmates, when I study on my own. Just because students go to class doesn't necessarily mean they are working harder. I know plenty of students who surf facebook on their labtops while the professor is lecturing, some students fall asleep, and some students are just talking to each other. Does this sound like an efficient use of time?

Def continue to focus on yourself and what you are doing. From the posts I have read from the current residents, fellows, and attending on here...If you have solid grades, pass your boards and give a good effort during your clerkships and residency training you will be alright.

Im meaning for this question to be a more hypothetical question. Not picked apart. I guess I could have worded it a little better. I actually dont attend some of my classes for the same reason. And I'm also doing well in my courses. I do study alot however.

Im just curious what others had to say about those that clearly do not have strong work effort versus those that do.

 

[347932]

If they weren't studying very hard and making good grades then that kind of academic talent should have landed them in medical school rather than podiatry school (just saying).

I don't get it. What are you "(just saying)"?

 

[air bud]

Didn't go to class 1st year + studied a lot = good grades (top 10%)
Go to every class 2nd year + study MUCH less = good grades (still top 10%)

 

[air bud]

Im meaning for this question to be a more hypothetical question. Not picked apart. I guess I could have worded it a little better. I actually dont attend some of my classes for the same reason. And I'm also doing well in my courses. I do study alot however.

Im just curious what others had to say about those that clearly do not have strong work effort versus those that do.

I am not sure how much you can evaluate work ethic the first 2 years. Yeah, some things come easier for some. Thats life. Your work ethic will be evaluated in clinic. Did you read up that night on the cases you saw that day in the clinic so you could be prepared next time? Did you get the surgery list for that week so you could read up and be prepared? Do you read journal articles/radiographs in between patients when you have downtime?
I would much rather be evaluated that way than how much you may or may not see me study.

 

[347932]

I'm saying that if someone gets great grades and supposedly doesn't study very hard then that kind of academic talent would probably land most in medical school (MD/DO) and not podiatry school. I know that might offend some current pod students so thats why I put "just saying" in parentheses.

I know there may be some students out there who had the credentials to get into med school but decided to go podiatry because really wanted to. For the most part though, I think you would find that most podiatry students NEED to work hard to get good grades. There might be some podiatry prodigies out there (or students who can just memorize really well) but those kinds of students are few and far between (in my opinion).

Just curious, is this how/why you ended up in Podiatry School?

What's a podiatry prodigy?

 

[PADPM]

Since there are great graduates with the BEST characteristics of all that you mentioned, I may not hire either one. Why would I compromise when hiring?

I want someone smart AND someone with a great work ethic, wouldn't you?

 

[dtrack22]

I looked up podiatry prodigy in the dictionary...it said "see air bud"

Weird

 

[347932]

Since there are great graduates with the BEST characteristics of all that you mentioned, I may not hire either one. Why would I compromise when hiring?

I want someone smart AND someone with a great work ethic, wouldn't you?

Precisely.

 

[347932]

I looked up podiatry prodigy in the dictionary...it said "see air bud"

Weird

Interesting. My dictionary said "see Kidsfeet".

 

[Podfather]

I do not care if someone's skill as a doctor is the result of natural ability or hard work. Just because you have a gift doesn't mean you do not push yourself and purely working hard doesn't necessarily mean you are a personable individual.

I would want someone who is a good doctor/surgeon as the starting point. From there this is what I am looking for: Someone I can trust, is a team player, is empathetic and cares about the patients AND staff, checks their ego at the door, and is personable enough to mingle with the other specialty doctors and my community.

Also at my age respect of elders would be nice too. LOL

 

[Feli]

In the end, it's a job. Nothing more, nothing less. As with any job, a lot depends on competency and communication skills. The student with better grades will usually land the better residency and therefore have better training, but there are exceptions to every rule. Just do the best you can and apply yourself in classes, rotations, job search, etc. Don't try to justify avg/poor grades with "well I'll win in the end." Instead, just try to figure out how you can budget your time better and perform better on the tests. You can compensate for mediocre grades to some degree by working hard on roations and interviewing well, but you still usually have to learn enough to pass boards and keep a high enough gpa get accepted for the good rotations in order to have a shot at matching there.

...Most health professional students are full of crap when it comes to saying what their grades are and how much they study etc...

I agree fully. It's often basically the opposite of what people state... good students don't want to be viewed as dorks, so they'll minimize study time. Likewise, poor students exaggerate time spent studying so they aren't viewed as having been slacking or partying when they should've been studying. "I study every day but still got a C on the exam" often means 'I didn't study enough but want to save face.' Conversely "I didn't study too much" might mean plenty of library review instead of doing more 'fun' stuff... but doesn't want to admit it.

In the end, it's pretty pointless to go around asking people how much they plan to study, how many times they read the chapter, etc. The correct answer is always to study until you feel you know the topics well enough to get the grade you want. Depending on your talent level and how productive/focused your study time is, that will vary for everyone. If you just do the best you can, that's really all you can ask for. Try to meet your own standards - not somebody else's.

 

[347932]

In the end, it's a job. Nothing more, nothing less.

NO.

If that's the attitude you go into as an associate you will fail. Its not a job. As an associate you are a reflection of the practice you have chosen to join. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, you do and say can lead to your ultimate failure or success.

More so if you decide to go into practice on your own. It isn't a job. Its a business. You are trying to entice people to trust you with their feet and some with their lives.

A job is flipping burgers at McDonald's. A job is a teller at a bank. A job is not something where you have people's health in your hands. Just as a completely different example, do you think the Secret Service personnel who protect our president consider it a "job"?

Being a doctor is NOT a job. Its a commitment. If you represent a practice its not a job either. Its a position of being an ambassador to your profession AND your employer.

 

[dyk343]

Thanks for everyone's replies. Although I'm still young at the game, I think I would hire a hard worker that is fully invested in his/her work even if they have to ask questions along the way, or make minor mistakes.

IMO A happy employee (assuming happy = hard worker, as they likely like what they are doing) is a better employee than a employee who doesnt give a damn about their job.

I read a paper the other day that was written for managers. It suggested that managers fire all unhappy workers as this will increase output/productivity, and obviously morale.

Again this is assuming that:
Happy = hard worker
Unhappy = slacker

...which is not always the case. Such as PADPM's PMS36 thread. They were likely hard workers, just wanted more.

Also please note I never technically categorized myself in my initial post.



This is not the exact paper I was reading the other day, but it has the same points: Clickity click

 

[air bud]

In the end, it's pretty pointless to go around asking people how much they plan to study, how many times they read the chapter, etc. The correct answer is always to study until you feel you know the topics well enough to get the grade you want. Depending on your talent level and how productive/focused your study time is, that will vary for everyone. If you just do the best you can, that's really all you can ask for. Try to meet your own standards - not somebody else's.

The question I hate hearing the most from students is "how long did you study for?" Drives me crazy. It takes as long as it takes for you to understand the material. Some things will come easier than others. 5 hours not = 5 hours not = 5 hours. The sooner students realize their job right now is to study, the sooner they start getting better grades. It may take an extra hour, it may take an extra 5. The challenge is figuring out what works best for you. See my previous example. I have learned how to get more out of going to class (KEY = NO COMPUTER). As a result, I have a much better understanding of the material after hearing it just once. I study less than 1st year and get the same good grades. But again, thats what works for me.

 

[PADPM]

...which is not always the case. Such as PADPM's PMS36 thread. They were likely hard workers, just wanted more.

Not exactly. These doctors thought they were hard workers, but were not in comparison with the other doctors in the group and in comparison with the partners in the group. They also wanted to dictate what they did or didn't do, WAY too early in the game. I'm sorry, but when you enter a pratice as a new associate, it's simply a reality that you may be at the bottom of the totem pole, especially when you are entering a practice with a group of well trained ABPS docs, who have all done what you are being asked to do prior to you entering the practice. AND this was all spelled out prior to joining the practice.

There are exeptions when a well trained new doc is joining a group bringing some new advanced skills to the practice, but when we bring a new doc to our practice, we are all well trained and capable of performing most if not all the procedures the new doc is trained to perform.

The opportunities for the new doctor are incredible, and we are willing to "turf" all surgical procedures to this doc, but he/she also must be willing to do some of the less "glamorous" daily duties that are part of a busy podiatric practice, especially when all the other doctors in the practice are presently doing the same or have recently done the same.

 

[347932]

Not exactly. These doctors thought they were hard workers, but were not in comparison with the other doctors in the group and in comparison with the partners in the group. They also wanted to dictate what they did or didn't do, WAY too early in the game. I'm sorry, but when you enter a pratice as a new associate, it's simply a reality that you may be at the bottom of the totem pole, especially when you are entering a practice with a group of well trained ABPS docs, who have all done what you are being asked to do prior to you entering the practice. AND this was all spelled out prior to joining the practice.

There are exeptions when a well trained new doc is joining a group bringing some new advanced skills to the practice, but when we bring a new doc to our practice, we are all well trained and capable of performing most if not all the procedures the new doc is trained to perform.

The opportunities for the new doctor are incredible, and we are willing to "turf" all surgical procedures to this doc, but he/she also must be willing to do some of the less "glamorous" daily duties that are part of a busy podiatric practice, especially when all the other doctors in the practice are presently doing the same or have recently done the same.

Its always amazing to me when I hear that new associates have the cajones to say "No, I don't want to do nursing homes, sorry." Or, "Nah, I'd rather just do all the rearfoot."

PAHLEASE! You do what needs to be done in a busy practice. And you like it, because someone has laid the groundwork for you and is willing to share. If you don't like it, GTFO and join the real world for a second. Seriously.

 

[Brodiatrist]

I'm curious if this issue (nursing home coverage) was addressed in his/her interviews and/or contract.

 

[PADPM]

Yes, if you read my post it stated clearly "AND this was spelled out prior to joining the practice".

Additionally, we do not hire any new doctor without that doctor spending time in our office to shadow us to make sure he/she is fully aware of our FULL scope of practice and the long hours we keep and the large amount of patients that walk through our doors.

However, I don't want to over-emphasize the nursing home situation. We are talking about a total of approximately 2 early mornings a week or 4 hours a week out of a possible 45-50+ hour week. Therefore, the new doctor will be spending 90-95% of his/her time in one of our offices, wound care centers (if he/she chooses to be trained in that area since it requires specialized training despite the best of residency training) or the OR. We're not talking about spending the entire work week in the nursing home. And we do not require our new docs to perform home visits. And ALL our docs perform hospital consults on a rotating on call basis.

The nursing homes allow the new doc to keep busy while his/her schedule fills, it allows him/her to meet several PCP's/attendings who are often at these facilities treating patients and it also allows him/her to schedule some surgical cases. Some of these patients need wound care in the O.R., some require amputations and some are not bedridden. Some of the facilities have "offices" where the patients are not seen at bedside and have similar ailments to those seen in any podiatric office, and surgical cases are booked similar to any other podiatric office. So just like anything, if your glass is half full instead of half empty, it doesn't have to be a negative experience.

 

[347932]

I'm curious if this issue (nursing home coverage) was addressed in his/her interviews and/or contract.

It doesn't have to be. Any employment contract says something to the effect that you, as an employee, will be expected to participate in the work, within your scope of practice, that is deemed necessary by your employer.

Nursing homes staying late to see patients, finishing records, going to hospital meetings, doing free events like medical for marathons...etc.

Once again, any patient contact can be a growing experience. My experience has been that I see Grandma in the nursing home and next thing I know, she talks about me and now I see her whole family in the office. If the administration and staff likes you, they show up to be patients...etc. Clipping toenails in a nursing home is what you make it to be. Either your attitude is that its a spring board, or that it is a monotonous necessity. Your choice. I chose the former and man has it paid off.

 

[Podfather]

It doesn't have to be. Any employment contract says something to the effect that you, as an employee, will be expected to participate in the work, within your scope of practice, that is deemed necessary by your employer.

Nursing homes staying late to see patients, finishing records, going to hospital meetings, doing free events like medical for marathons...etc.

Once again, any patient contact can be a growing experience. My experience has been that I see Grandma in the nursing home and next thing I know, she talks about me and now I see her whole family in the office. If the administration and staff likes you, they show up to be patients...etc. Clipping toenails in a nursing home is what you make it to be. Either your attitude is that its a spring board, or that it is a monotonous necessity. Your choice. I chose the former and man has it paid off.

I agree with everything said so far and I believe that PADPM's associate would have eventually found something else to complain about even if the nursing home situation had not occurred. They were obviously not a good match for their busy practice and the associate most likely was heading for departure regardless.

I do feel that hiring or becoming an associate is a time consuming expensive venture on both sides of the equation. Unfortunately there often is no or too brief of a dating period before the engagement and sometimes they never marry. It is imperative for both sides to explain exactly what is expected (in PADPM's case this appears to have been done) and to discuss issues like nursing homes, home visits, consults, and coverage. I have seen situations on both sides where an associate is dumped on with problem postops, poor insurance/nopay patients, expected to be busy all day, visit referral bases, then do all hospital care, and cover all holidays. I guess if this is explained pre-hire even that would be technically OK but stupid for retention. On the flip side I have seen associates agreeing to do everything, understands the practice, talks a good story and then morph into the 9-5 no weekends nightmare. Call off sick every Monday and bad mouth the existing docs to patients, referral sources, and staff.

It is one thing if practice demographics change, a practice opportunity develops, or income drops and the practice needs to add services but to ask someone hired to suddenly take more call, do extra work, or provide a service they dislike or are not comfortable on a whim or at the bequest of a partner can be unfair.

Why would someone take a job even if they understand whats expected then be disgruntled? It's simple residency ends, loans come due, family is near and opportunities may be limited. Does that make the associate right? Of course not but makes the situation understandable. I explain to residents accepting a position simply for income or convenience often leads to an increased lag time and they should truly assess for them and their families what they want, where they want to live, what practice type they seek and then make it happen.

PADPM I believe the answer may be in hiring an existing doc, merging with someone who is a good doctor but poor businessman, or with the quality of training of your group trying for a purely palliative doc who also has wound care experience?????

 

[347932]

...an associate is dumped on with problem postops, poor insurance/nopay patients, expected to be busy all day, visit referral bases, then do all hospital care, and cover all holidays.

This was my life in the associateship I was in. It was a day to day nightmare. The doctor had some serious nepotism going on in the office, and it affected the office morale and was used to dictate policy.

I was busting my butt to get new referrals and these patients were transferred to the new doctor that he hired while he was on active duty. Patients were calling to be put on my schedule and his sister in law was putting them on this new doctor's schedule, as were other patients I had been seeing for YEARS. He told me that people were complaining about me so this new doctor was getting them.

Interesting since many of them followed me when I went out on my own. Funny how that works.

The tragedy of the situation was that my boss had me by the cajones since he was my sponsor for my Green Card. He knew it and threatened to deport me on more than one occassion. I was making him too much money so he kept me around until he found another stooge. Now I hear she's thinking about leaving his practice as well.

 

[PADPM]

PADPM I believe the answer may be in hiring an existing doc, merging with someone who is a good doctor but poor businessman, or with the quality of training of your group trying for a purely palliative doc who also has wound care experience?????

Thanks for the recommendations and thoughts. We have hired existing docs and have eaten up some local struggling practices. However, those docs who are good docs but poor businessmen are not the docs who are in line to become shareholders or partners. They are excellent worker bees, but have already failed as businessmen, therefore are not on course for partnership.

I am presently the youngest doctor in the practice and youngest shareholder/partner.

Our goal is to hire a quality, well trained doc/associate leading to partnership. We need young blood to take over.

Several of our docs are no longer performing surgery, and we would like a well trained surgical doc since the opportunity is great. Some of the partners are looking to lighten their surgical load which can be picked up by the new associate, therefore hiring a palliative DPM once again does not put that person on track for future partnership.

We just need to find the right person who "gets it". Kidsfeet has been through as associateship and seems to "get it". Maybe I'll offer him a position!!

 

[347932]

Thanks for the recommendations and thoughts. We have hired existing docs and have eaten up some local struggling practices. However, those docs who are good docs but poor businessmen are not the docs who are in line to become shareholders or partners. They are excellent worker bees, but have already failed as businessmen, therefore are not on course for partnership.

I am presently the youngest doctor in the practice and youngest shareholder/partner.

Our goal is to hire a quality, well trained doc/associate leading to partnership. We need young blood to take over.

Several of our docs are no longer performing surgery, and we would like a well trained surgical doc since the opportunity is great. Some of the partners are looking to lighten their surgical load which can be picked up by the new associate, therefore hiring a palliative DPM once again does not put that person on track for future partnership.

We just need to find the right person who "gets it". Kidsfeet has been through as associateship and seems to "get it". Maybe I'll offer him a position!!

LOL thanks for the vote of confidence PADPM!😉

I think no one can truly "get it" until they've lived and learned from it. I learn something everyday, but am always looking for new ways to expand my horizons.