Why aren't more psych grad students publishing before internship?

[Therapist4Chnge]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Wow! With 40 big name publications like that, you must have a truly amazing CV... Would you mind posting a link to your cv or the general aera of research? You can pm me, if you'd prefer. 🙂 It'd just be great to see what that accomplished a cv looks like, even if the work it took to get it was killer.

Sometimes it is depressing....one of our mentors sent out his CV to the fellows, as he wanted us to see the formatting we should use if we were applying for medical school faculty/clinical positions. It was 30 pages. 😱 Mine is 4-5.

 

[edieb]

The nice long CVs are nice but unless they are very, very impressive, the cv doesn't help you that much financially. Colleagues who work at big name medical schools are all making <$70K, so what is the point?

I was lucky enought ot be offered a post-doc at University of Washington School of Medicine; however, I decided not to take it because the pay was SO low (around $29K), especially when you consider that you had to live in Seattle. What sealed my rejection of the fellowship was that after licensed, a psychologist there make $42-5K.

Instead, I am now working at a V.A. hospital as a clinician and about two-thirds done with my post-doctoral master's in psychopharmacology. I should be prescribing by August. It makes me feel good to be taking this course of action because 1) There is such a great need for medication prescribers, especially when done in conjunction with psychological interventions and 2) When one can prescribes, you are in demand.

One thing that really hit me hard about the profession is the view that psychologists are disposable. IOW, we are not seen as unique or contributing anything noteworthy. Another thing is how little we make, especially when you consider the training we receive. NOT WORTH IT, lol

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The nice long CVs are nice but unless they are very, very impressive, the cv doesn't help you that much financially. Colleagues who work at big name medical schools are all making <$70K, so what is the point?

Where at?

I've talked to 4 medical schools thus far, and junior faculty positions make more than that, with senior faculty making $100k+. A mix of clinical and some soft research $$ should net $100k+. Obviously it isn't a 40hr wk, but it is far from <$70k. Medical School faculty are far better off than people in Psychology Dept, but YMMV.

I was lucky enought ot be offered a post-doc at University of Washington School of Medicine; however, I decided not to take it because the pay was SO low (around $29K), especially when you consider that you had to live in Seattle. What sealed my rejection of the fellowship was that after licensed, a psychologist there make $42-5K.

Yikes. UW was on my short list of places. I talked with someone out there last year about positions and that wasn't the impression that I got. I have no idea how people could afford to live out there, as the Pacific Northwest is gorgeous....but pricey.

Instead, I am now working at a V.A. hospital as a clinician and about two-thirds done with my post-doctoral master's in psychopharmacology. I should be prescribing by August. It makes me feel good to be taking this course of action because 1) There is such a great need for medication prescribers, especially when done in conjunction with psychological interventions and 2) When one can prescribes, you are in demand.

I absolutely agree.

I have mine, and while it isn't in my immediate future, it is nice to have a fallback plan.

 

[Ollie123]

Yeah, a lot of that definitely doesn't mesh with my experiences. 70k is closer to non-TT pay than TT pay here, though it is admittedly a very unusual setting (oncology). Still, I know no one working TT jobs in academic med earning that little - friend in public health started at 90+, etc.

I'm also surprised by the post-doc salary. Most post-docs at academic centers are funded by research grants, which means they tend to offer a minimum of ~39k (current NIH payline). Some supplement beyond that, especially in more expensive cities. Far from great after all that school, but certainly reasonable for "training" - especially if its just a year or two before leaping into an 80k+ job. We actually pay around 45k for post-doc, I know another place that from what I know is desperate to find folks and pays 50k (not my top choice for area, but its still one of the biggest cities in the country!). At least in my field, my understanding is that there are typically more openings than qualified applicants so its not exactly a competitive market right now.

Note that these are all 100% research positions I'm referring to. Many are not licensed (no need depending on the type of research) and some are not clinically trained. Hybrid positions may be very different, I don't have much exposure to folks in those positions so can't really comment.

 

[Ollie123]

This may be a difference in how we are defining non-TT. By non-TT I'm referring to our folks in "Project Director" type positions (who I believe are technically labeled "faculty" here). They do not typically apply for grants (though actually the ones in our lab do) and generally do not even run their own studies. Even these folks are at least doing reasonably well. To my knowledge, we do not have non-TT faculty in the way that I expect you mean - the options are basically TT, "Project Director" type positions, or clinical staff (though even they will generally be at least peripherally involved in research). At least this seems to be true for psychologists...there may be different tracks available in other departments.

I wouldn't mind the "project director" type gig for a couple years if I need to, since it seems to be a stepping stone at some places and pays better than post-doc. However, I would be pretty unhappy making a career out of it since I'm going through this training to be an independent scientist. We may not have met, but after several years of reading your posts I expect you feel very much the same, which is why I imagine we are referring to different things.

I think I'm setting myself up to make the leap to TT without that being necessary though. Of course, this is heavily dependent on success with obtaining extramural funding. Mostly - I'm increasingly convinced I want a 100% research job. Teaching is fun but I'm not sure I enjoy it enough to justify the tremendous amount of time it takes and prefer research mentoring to the classroom anyways. Clinical work is tolerated, but definitely not something I ever want to spend a significant amount of time doing. I'd gladly take the administrative duties everyone does their best to avoid over a substantive clinical load.

 

[deadmau5]

i'm hoping for 8-10 before internship... hopefully 1-2 a year will produce that.

 

[yeti2213]

Question from someone on the outside looking in. For all the people that said they have not published because they don't care to... how does that work? Are you still working on a someone's research project even if not your own? Or are you just taking a long ass time to collect data? And is it because you are at programs that are less research driven or maybe working with faculty who understand your interests don't lie in that direction?

I am curious because I thought one of the big drivers in a PhD was that your lab/mentor wanted to get publications out the door and into print... especially if they are not tenured as yet.

 

[PsychResearch]

Another reason (at least for me) is that in my program there are super high expectations regarding stats. Everything we do now is in MPlus and I couldn't start on paper until I learned SEM and learned it on my own. I told my advisor that I feel I started late in the process, but was told that even if I were to start early it wouldn't have help because all I knew back when I started was simple stats (ANOVAs etc.). I think that allowing students to apply ANOVAs or other simple stats is actually helpful as it would have given me the self-efficacy that I can actually do that stuff. Anyways, this is another reason.

 

[erg923]

Another reason (at least for me) is that in my program there are super high expectations regarding stats. Everything we do now is in MPlus and I couldn't start on paper until I learned SEM and learned it on my own. I told my advisor that I feel I started late in the process, but was told that even if I were to start early it wouldn't have help because all I knew back when I started was simple stats (ANOVAs etc.). I think that allowing students to apply ANOVAs or other simple stats is actually helpful as it would have given me the self-efficacy that I can actually do that stuff. Anyways, this is another reason.

Absolutely! Practice is necesary to maintain any of that stuff. I got to the point in my 3rd year where I conceptually understood stats stuff that I never thought I would be able to. But you know what? Its gone now. I tried talking to our chief here in the VA about some SEM stuff in the WAIS-IV recently. He was correcting me all over the place and I probably just sounded like a babbling idiot. Unless you use the stuff...you'll lose it (especially if you are much more a clincian at heart). Guarantee it.

 

[PsychResearch]

Absolutely! Practice is necesary to maintain any of that stuff. I got to the point in my 3rd year where I conceptually understood stats stuff that I never thought I would be able to. But you know what? Its gone now. I tried talking to our chief here in the VA about some SEM stuff in the WAIS-IV recently. He was correcting me all over the place and I probably just sounded like a babbling idiot. Unless you use the stuff...you'll lose it (especially if you are much more a clincian at heart). Guarantee it.

I agree! So, basically I had to wait to start on papers until I learned SEM. But then even in MPlus you can run ANOVAs etc. and it's easier to do higher level stats if you went through the steps of doing the fairly easy stuff.

Now, here is one of the issues I'm dealing with now. I am interested in topic X and so is another student who attempted the topic to begin with but the model didn't have good fit, so the student dropped the idea. My advisor suggested something along the same lines at our weekly meeting and addressed the idea toward me stating that this would be a good project since I'm interested in the topic. I'm also intersted in approaching the topic from a different angle than the other student.

Long story short, the other student said she is also interested in the same topic. Me and said student e-mailed each other about a collaboration. She asked that we correspond via e-mail. I sent her my ideas, but I haven't heard from her. We are meeting with the advisor next week. I'd be okay with being a second person on this project and let the other student be first since they attempted something similar, I just don't get it why she did not e-mail with some ideas as we agreed. I like to think she's busy etc. but that's not the vibe I get from her. What do you make of this situation?

 

[wigflip]

Long story short, the other student said she is also interested in the same topic. Me and said student e-mailed each other about a collaboration. She asked that we correspond via e-mail. I sent her my ideas, but I haven't heard from her. We are meeting with the advisor next week. I'd be okay with being a second person on this project and let the other student be first since they attempted something similar, I just don't get it why she did not e-mail with some ideas as we agreed. I like to think she's busy etc. but that's not the vibe I get from her. What do you make of this situation?

Sounds like you have a funny feeling about it--perhaps best to save all correspondence in case you need a record in the future...?