Why do blacks get lower grades than whites?

[Urotsukidoji1]

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I started this thred to express my opinion on the question and I want to know your views on the topic.

This is my opinion on the subject. look at the television and what do you see? If you see a rich black person what are they usually doing as a occupation? They are either a RAPPER, SINGER, ACTOR, OR AN ATHLETE. They look at this at a young age and think that is the only way the they can become rich, so most of them devote much of this time perfecting those things. They think they can be the next Michel Jordan. So instead of hitting the books they do the thing they think will make them rich. It is our society and they television that effects this. The young black person practices the thing he thinks will make him successful. When a young black person looks at the t.v. and tries to find a black man or woman that is successful they only see the RAPPER, SINGER, ACTOR, OR AN ATHLETE. They rarely see the black doctor or lawer, etc. the problem is the media and society in my opinion.
we need to make the studies seem more important and project this to black children.

 

[Newdoc2002]

Nice job, you've managed to insult the intelligence of about everyone with your last post/question.

In the event that you are honestly asking (which I doubt), I doubt this board is the place to get it answered. More likely, you have just chosen to stir up controversy. Reminds me of the days of Princeton Review's website.

For others who stumble across this post, encourage the originator to go seek their answer elsewhere and let this thread die.

 

[stoic]

To the OP:
Congratulations, you've managed to make yourself sound like a complete jerk. Maybe you're a jerk or maybe you just don't have a lot of good sense and ask a poorly worded and offensive question. Assuming that you wanted to start an intellectual conversation on the disproportionate representation of minorities in professional fields instead of a flame war, I'm going to make a comment on your ideas.

The idea that you presented as the "problem" is recognized by social scientist. I remember be lectured to about the problem of "media sterotyping" and the resulting lack of postive role models as a possible reason for socio-economic injustices.

I'm a biologist, not a sociologist (thank god) so that really is all I have to say about that.

Next time you have a question maybe you could read up on tact first.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

this thread was obviously to get a reaction out of people...i don't know many people that would be serious about this kind of post. with that said, it was still kind of jerky.

 

[Shinken]

Just for kicks, go to the pre-allo forum and you can see two posts by Urotsukidoji1. The first is a carbon copy of this one (with poor grammar) the other has correct grammar. Hmmm? Two different people posting under one username? I think we're probably dealing with a troll here, just trying to stir trouble.

 

[Fenrezz]

I guess it was inevitable that the pre-MD obsessed URM subject would spill over to the DO board.

Dont waste your time with this thread. You'll only look as silly as those who argue with each other for 20 pages about URM's.

 

[Dr Sum Day]

Originally posted by Fenrezz
I guess it was inevitable that the pre-MD obsessed URM subject would spill over to the DO board.

good observation...by the way, I like your avatar....it reminds me of that David Lee Roth video/song, "I'm just a Jiggalo" (spelling?)

😀

 

[DOnut]

I do not read the pre-allo board so I can not comment on the URM forums. As an African American male, however, I feel as if I must respond to the OP.

I agree that this was posted in the wrong forum.

I truly hope that this is a sincere question from the OP.

As a black male medical student, I can respond to your post from my point of view.

Before I can comment on your question however, I first must point the obvious. "Why do blacks get lower grades than whites?"

Not every African American scores lower on exams than whites. If so, I would not be in medical school. I must have beat out someone to get here....I doubt if they were all black.

If you are speaking in terms of standardized exam scores, this answer can be multifaceted and as one above poster stated, I am not a sociologist.

I believe that "media stereotyping" has very little to do with the way one performs in school. The way one views the importance of their education has everything to do with the parents.

From day one, I was taught the importance of a good education. I was shown what one could achieve with a solid education and I also observed what ones options were if a solid education was not obtained.

I was blessed to have both of my parents involved in every aspect of my schooling. THIS IS SOMETHING MANY WHITE CHILDREN TAKE FOR GRANTED. (remember this is my opinion) Many african americans are not afforded the same opportunities as white children due to the socioeconomic status of their family. Often both parents have to work long hours just to get by. Often parents, work two or three jobs to afford opportunities for their children that they did not have. Often people find themselves in single parent households.

NOW LISTEN!! I am not saying that there are not any white people out there who have experienced similar situations. There are MANY!!! However, I have never seen a study comparing African American children with white children of the same socioeconimic background.

In addition, life is not fair, and (as some may try to argue) our American culture is not created equal. If you look throughout school districts in America where do you find the poorest quality and conditions of schools? In inner city (majority minority) neighborhoods. Where do you find over crowded understaffed schools? In inner city (majority minority) neighborhoods. Where do you find the schools with a sever lack of supplies and an overabundance of undertrained uncertified teachers? In inner city (majority minority) neighborhoods.

There are many reason African Americans historically score lower on standardized tests. I have bearly begun to scratch the surface with my post. I guarantee the answers will not be found
on studentdoctor.net.

Again the above is my opinionated response to the OP's question.

As an aside, there are many highly "successful" non-athletic african americans in the US. I will take the liberty of naming a few in todays society, and then many in the medical community.

Colon Powell
Dr. Condoleza Rice
Oprah
(You should know the people I listed above. You should look up those who follow.)

Dr. Daniel Hale Williams
Dr. George Cleveland Hall
Dr. Louis T. Wright
Dr. William Augustus Hinton
Dr. Charles R. Drew
Dr. Ben Carson
Dr. Mae C. Jemison
Dr. Barbara Ross-Lee
Dr. Joycelyn Elders
Dr. David Satcher

I generated this list from the top of my head. There are many others. To the OP, I do not expect you to understand or empathize with any of the above. If you are not African American, you have no reason to. Just as I will never be able to fully empathize with the plight of American Jews, you will never be able to fully identify with the situation facing many black americans.

I hope this helps to answer your question and maybe give a little insight.

 

[jhug]

even BETTER question....why is this post in the pre-osteo forum??? What does this have to do with ANYTHING related to learning about osteopathy or getting into med school??!?!?!

 

[DOnut]

Nothing. It should be moved.

 

[Megalofyia]

Dr. David Satcher talked about the future of health care where I work last year. He is a great speaker.

 

[jkhamlin]

DOnut:

Might I add two of my personal idols to the list of successful nonathletic African Americans?

Former Ambassador Alan Keyes, PhD
Professor Walter Williams, PhD, LLD, LHD

If I ever manage to become half as smart as either one of these guys I'll be happy.

 

[nanosomic]

Now I see why some at the pre-allo forum are jerks. Osteopathic physicians and future osteopathic physicians do not tolerate useless comments/beliefs/questions or whatever like the one posted by original poster.

 

[RockandRolldoc]

This is why I hate white people....

 

[DrQuinn]

I hate ALL people. Especially that damn person who looks at me in the mirror.

Q, DO

 

[Slingblade the Surgeon]

I hate that RnR Doc hates me. 🙁


Hey and what about Johnny Cochran?


BTW, who says your role models have to be the same race as you? That seems kinda racist to me. I want to be like Satcher OR Koop, not because they are white or black....but because they have cool beards! Hehe no really....I look up to them because they are accomplished doctors. Is it teaching your kids to be racist when you only give them black doctors to look up to when they're black or white doctors when they're white or Jewish doctors when you're from Michigan? I say maybe. There aren't a lot of anglo docs at this school, but I look up to all of the docs here anyway b/c they are DOCTORS people! And thats what I wanna be. Maybe my parents forgot to teach me that I was only supposed to have "my kind" as role models, huh?

Oh well...enuff soap boxin'

 

[NDESTRUKT]

geez come on, to each their own.

i met Alan Keyes by the way - interesting guy.

I'm asian. But I'm american too =)

 

[RockandRolldoc]

I love slingblade, but I still hate white people. Especially ones that try to impose their Stale culture on me.

 

[skypilot]

Every day on the subway I see the poster from Kaplan of this black student from California who scored a 40 on the MCAT. He kicked everyones butt on that exam and would probably laugh if he read this thread. People talk as if there is not overlap in scores. They also don't know about the long proud tradition of African Americans in medicine.

 

[....]

If there is a long and proud tradition of blacks in medicine why do they need/demand AA?

 

[DOnut]

Originally posted by DOnut
Dr. Daniel Hale Williams
Dr. George Cleveland Hall
Dr. Louis T. Wright
Dr. William Augustus Hinton
Dr. Charles R. Drew
Dr. Ben Carson
Dr. Mae C. Jemison
Dr. Barbara Ross-Lee
Dr. Joycelyn Elders
Dr. David Satcher

I generated this list from the top of my head. There are many others.

There is a long proud tradition of African Americans in medicine. It is a tradition that we are very proud of because it was a very steep up hill battle in order to get blacks into the positions they have achieved.

For example, in 1940 when Dr. Charles Drew came up with the thesis called "banked blood" which covers two years of blood research, including the discovery that plasma could replace whole blood transfusions, it was not easy to convince many of the top physicians and researchers to accept the word of this black physician. Even though he was at Columbia at the time, blacks couldn't even drink out of the same damn drinking fountains. Do you really think it would be easy to have an idea such as "banked blood" to be accepted?

In regards to your question of why we still need AA, african americans represent approximately 14% of the US population. Currently, we represent less that 2% of the physicians in the US. This is a disparity that must be addressed. It has already been shown in surveys and studies that physicians are most comfortable treating treating people who are most like them. It has also been shown that white physicians do not treat african americans as aggressively as whites, nor are all treatment options presented to african americans and other minorities. This is why Affirmative Action is needed.

Oh and since I know that people on SDN are "proof" happy, here is a link discussing the claim I made above about white physicians and treatment of african americans.

www.kaisernetwork.org/health_cast/uploaded_files/National_Black_Women's_Health_Project_2003_final.pdf

PS: Though our tradition is a very proud one, I hardly believe that this is a reason to stop the proactive recruitment of minorities into medical schools. My answer above should show why I believe this.

 

[toogood1]

I have been sitting hear reading this post and it's amazing how the OP has found a way to totally offend a group of people. I support everything that DOnut has said. To the OP--I hope you don't believe that you were actually being proactive about this situation, because the wording of your post was just as distasteful as you probably are.

Now to the AA issue--I hate when people always come back to the AA issue. This is my point on it and mine alone. Okay, you have a very small minority of African Americans that actually can and want to pursue higher education, but you complain and want find ways to prevent this minute number from doing this. I find this totally selfish and inconsiderate. Do you know what OUR world consists of--well let me tell you:

Everyday I walk down the street or drive in my own car, I see countless number of African Americans struggling in life, I see on the news how large numbers have committed crimes and the remainder of their life will be spent behind bars, I see HIV taking over a race of people, elderly people who can't afford healthcare, people who are so low in life that's it's a shame before GOD! That's what I see--my people struggling; and that's not to say that other groups of people are not struggling. That's why if I can be a tool to uplift my race, then that's what I am gonna do with or without the help of AA.

Everybody here is always looking for some unfairness or inconsistency in the system; well, I see it everyday when I walk into stores, talk to people, etc. There is a double-standard here and what AA is doing is not giving a hand-out, but offering a way for this type of treatment that has plagued the African American community to be rectified.

I will be attending PCOM in the fall, not because I am black, but because I deserve to be there--and that's it.

 

[jkhamlin]

I am part American Indian. I get crap for it all the time. I occasionally get told I will have to cut my hair to get into med school because AdComs are still pretty prejudiced. I tell them that it's a good thing that's all I have to do to pass for white. Some people might have to paint themselves. 😉

Wouldn't it be better if there was real enforcement of an applied standard to acceptance that would have to be justified beyond race or culture instead of just demanding that a certain percentage be admitted no matter what? Perhaps people on AdComs could be administered tests that are indicative of prejudice.

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by DOnut

For example, in 1940 when Dr. Charles Drew came up with the thesis called "banked blood" which covers two years of blood research, including the discovery that plasma could replace whole blood transfusions, it was not easy to convince many of the top physicians and researchers to accept the word of this black physician. Even though he was at Columbia at the time, blacks couldn't even drink out of the same damn drinking fountains. Do you really think it would be easy to have an idea such as "banked blood" to be accepted?

Medicine was one of the few professions open to African Americans in the early 20th century. Traditionally black medical schools such as Howard and MeHarry provided a supply of doctors for the segregated black community. They also provided a way for ambitious educated students to reach the middle class as physicians and achieve the American Dream. The black middle class in New York City included physicians and well known entertainers. They were able to send their kids to private schools and try to establish a permanent escape from the underclass.

 

[skypilot]

Originally posted by jkhamlin
I am part American Indian. I get crap for it all the time. I occasionally get told I will have to cut my hair to get into med school because AdComs are still pretty prejudiced.

Wouldn't it be better if there was real enforcement of an applied standard to acceptance that would have to be justified beyond race or culture instead of just demanding that a certain percentage be admitted no matter what?

Yes, I think it would be great if we could eventually come up with a better, less divisive method for achieving the goals of affirmative action. Eventually if we continue our progress we won't need it at all.

We need to start with the funding of public schools, libraries, and enforcement of teacher qualifications. Every kid should be able get a decent education.

 

[Ms. Dawson DO]

I just want to point out that its AMAZING the difference in threads between the pre-allo and pre-osteo boards. This OP posted the same wackness on both boards....of course the pre-allo (which i have contributed to positively i hope) has a bunch of mudslinging and alot of youth and ignorance with a few bursts of thoughtful responses in 9 pages....and now has moved to the everyone thread so the madness can continue. Here, things are alot more civilized. And my premed committee has the nerve to ask me why my top choice is a DO school.....hmmph. I don't want to start a flame war DO vs MD cause I don't think there is a difference AT ALL...but i definitely think the response to the original post might speak to the age of applicants. Perhaps not. I just thought the difference in responses and interaction with posters with different opinions was worth noting....


perhaps the pre-osteos are too busy working on secondaries....

 

[ATP Synthase]

I do not read the pre-allo board so I can not comment on the URM forums. As an African American male, however, I feel as if I must respond to the OP.

I agree that this was posted in the wrong forum.

I truly hope that this is a sincere question from the OP.

As a black male medical student, I can respond to your post from my point of view.

Before I can comment on your question however, I first must point the obvious. "Why do blacks get lower grades than whites?"

Not every African American scores lower on exams than whites. If so, I would not be in medical school. I must have beat out someone to get here....I doubt if they were all black.

If you are speaking in terms of standardized exam scores, this answer can be multifaceted and as one above poster stated, I am not a sociologist.

I believe that "media stereotyping" has very little to do with the way one performs in school. The way one views the importance of their education has everything to do with the parents.

From day one, I was taught the importance of a good education. I was shown what one could achieve with a solid education and I also observed what ones options were if a solid education was not obtained.

I was blessed to have both of my parents involved in every aspect of my schooling. THIS IS SOMETHING MANY WHITE CHILDREN TAKE FOR GRANTED. (remember this is my opinion) Many african americans are not afforded the same opportunities as white children due to the socioeconomic status of their family. Often both parents have to work long hours just to get by. Often parents, work two or three jobs to afford opportunities for their children that they did not have. Often people find themselves in single parent households.

NOW LISTEN!! I am not saying that there are not any white people out there who have experienced similar situations. There are MANY!!! However, I have never seen a study comparing African American children with white children of the same socioeconimic background.

In addition, life is not fair, and (as some may try to argue) our American culture is not created equal. If you look throughout school districts in America where do you find the poorest quality and conditions of schools? In inner city (majority minority) neighborhoods. Where do you find over crowded understaffed schools? In inner city (majority minority) neighborhoods. Where do you find the schools with a sever lack of supplies and an overabundance of undertrained uncertified teachers? In inner city (majority minority) neighborhoods.

There are many reason African Americans historically score lower on standardized tests. I have bearly begun to scratch the surface with my post. I guarantee the answers will not be found
on studentdoctor.net.

Again the above is my opinionated response to the OP's question.

As an aside, there are many highly "successful" non-athletic african americans in the US. I will take the liberty of naming a few in todays society, and then many in the medical community.

Colon Powell
Dr. Condoleza Rice
Oprah
(You should know the people I listed above. You should look up those who follow.)

Dr. Daniel Hale Williams
Dr. George Cleveland Hall
Dr. Louis T. Wright
Dr. William Augustus Hinton
Dr. Charles R. Drew
Dr. Ben Carson
Dr. Mae C. Jemison
Dr. Barbara Ross-Lee
Dr. Joycelyn Elders
Dr. David Satcher

I generated this list from the top of my head. There are many others. To the OP, I do not expect you to understand or empathize with any of the above. If you are not African American, you have no reason to. Just as I will never be able to fully empathize with the plight of American Jews, you will never be able to fully identify with the situation facing many black americans.

I hope this helps to answer your question and maybe give a little insight.

👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍 👍

 

[spicedmanna]

Wow, this is an old thread. 😕

 

[Jamers]

I started this thred to express my opinion on the question and I want to know your views on the topic.

This is my opinion on the subject. look at the television and what do you see? If you see a rich black person what are they usually doing as a occupation? They are either a RAPPER, SINGER, ACTOR, OR AN ATHLETE. They look at this at a young age and think that is the only way the they can become rich, so most of them devote much of this time perfecting those things. They think they can be the next Michel Jordan. So instead of hitting the books they do the thing they think will make them rich. It is our society and they television that effects this. The young black person practices the thing he thinks will make him successful. When a young black person looks at the t.v. and tries to find a black man or woman that is successful they only see the RAPPER, SINGER, ACTOR, OR AN ATHLETE. They rarely see the black doctor or lawer, etc. the problem is the media and society in my opinion.
we need to make the studies seem more important and project this to black children.

What does this have to do with medicine?

 

[Taus]

Certain threads are just meant to die off years ago as this one did....closing...