Why do people keep saying doctors don't make good money anymore?

[strongboy2005]

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Frankly, I've been kind of disturbed by the prevalent opinion here on SDN. I have now read on numerous occasions something to the effect of "If you're in it for the money, it's not worth it." Granted, I do not believe going into medicine simply to be "rich" is going to lead to happiness or a fulfilling career, but physicians are still some of the most highly compensated individuals in the United States.

For example, the average emergency medicine physician will bring home $5140.05 every two weeks, AFTER TAXES. That is over 10 grand per month! Right now I would have to work full time for about 8 months to make that kind of money. This works out to about $55.87 per hour (again, this is still after taxes). If I were to move to full time doing what I do, I would only make $11.66 per hour after taxes. So as a physician I can reasonably expect to make about 5X what I am making per hour while in college, and about 2X what I could expect to make with only a bachelor's degree. This is a lucrative business!

I prefer numbers if you think I am wrong...

 

[taponthecloud]

*Chirp Chirp*

What's that little bird in my head?


*Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp*

Are you trying to tell me that it's roughly a decade of training and you come out with ~$200k in debt?


*Chirp Chirp Chirp*

No, I don't believe OP is a douchebag...

 

[strongboy2005]

*Chirp Chirp*

What's that little bird in my head?


*Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp*

Are you trying to tell me that it's roughly a decade of training and you come out with ~$200k in debt?


*Chirp Chirp Chirp*

No, I don't believe OP is a douchebag...

Wow... was that attack really necessary?

I've seen varying estimates of physician indebtedness, but according to the 2009 MSAR it's actually about $100k.

Are you trying to tell me that I won't expect to make more money as a physician than I would with a bachelor's degree teaching high school chemistry? In actual after-taxes dollars per hour, a physician makes a significant amount more than virtually all other professions... again, I do not understand why there is this whiny, illogical opinion all over these boards that doctors do not make enough money. Being a doctor is still going to gross you about $4,000 a week, which I would consider to be pretty well off...

 

[Raryn]

People say this because medicine is a huge investment of time (and money!) whose returns take nearly a decade before they're realized. Most of us premeds are rather intelligent, driven individuals who could probably pursue a variety of career paths. Your peers in the business world will start earning money right off the bat, versus pre-meds who need to get through four years of med school plus 3+ years of residency/fellowships. I know a girl who graduated as an engineer and has a $100k a year job now, and it can only go up from there.

Also, (most) doctors work higher than average hours every week and have a relatively high-stress workplace. Not only that, but doctor's salarys have actually been going *down* the past decade on average, once you factor in inflation. You'll probably get Law 2 Doc in here before this thread is over talking about how its gonna get far worse soon as well.

Doctors do earn quite good money though, and its a stable living. You could go to the worst med school in the country, graduate at the bottom of your class, match into a mediocre family practice residency somewhere in the boonys, and you would *still* be virtually guaranteed a salary of at least $130k a year. No matter what socialized monstrosities the government tries to pass in the next few years, they can't cut doctors pay too much or no one will keep killing themselves to keep the system working. You probably won't become a millionaire as a physician, but life will be good, and as long as you're smart, you'll be able to retire at a decent age with enough for anyone to be happy.

 

[HoboCommander]

consider the number of hours doctors have to work. the hourly salary isn't all that high compared to the alternative careers. from a money perspective not worth the extra hard work, opportunity costs, and debt.

 

[aamna0601]

I agree with the above members. I graduated with a BA in Business and was making bank with a multinational corporation. I was making about 70-80 K and got a huge sign on bonus. But I didnt find it fulfilling and decided Id rather go into medicine. If I had stayed with the company I could have reached executive level (theres no limit to the earning potential really) within five years, whereas my med peers would still be in residency working about 80 hrs a week making 50K. The number of years to get to the six figure salary is about a decade for physicians, like for many other professions, its not *particularly* lucrative in that respect, you could say its similar but not superior in that aspect. Also, the malpractice, and the beeper makes life a PITA sometimes (pain in the ... ) and considering student loans, if you subtract them from the salary, its like paying another mortgage, or a bentley from your salary 🙂 except theres no house or car, just the payment.

Its not a depressing financial scenario though. Drs have much better job security than other professions, and they can find jobs regardless of geographical preference. There are many perks, however if you are looking at *just* salary, then I would agree with others here especially since Ive lived the other lifestyle and felt it was much more financially rewarding. But not spiritually or morally or intellectually rewarding, and I consider myself an intellectual/helper type personality.

 

[strongboy2005]

People say this because medicine is a huge investment of time (and money!) whose returns take nearly a decade before they're realized.

True, but in the average doctor's lifetime he/she can expect to make significantly more than most other professions. When all is said and done, a doctor making $135,000 per year (after taxes) from the age of 30 to the age of 55 will make an overall income of $3.375 million. Even subtracting off med school debt (with interest included) and you will still make well over $3 million before retirement. Compare that to a teacher who starts teaching at $37,000 per year (after taxes) from age 22-55 and will make $1.221 million in his/her life. The doctor can still hope to make between 2-3 times a standard bachelor's degree.

Most of us premeds are rather intelligent, driven individuals who could probably pursue a variety of career paths. Your peers in the business world will start earning money right off the bat, versus pre-meds who need to get through four years of med school plus 3+ years of residency/fellowships. I know a girl who graduated as an engineer and has a $100k a year job now, and it can only go up from there.

Well I mean, it's really not helpful to compare a case-by-case basis. Really the comparison that needs to be made is with averages. On average, a physician is going to make significantly (2-3 times) more per hour than someone with only a bachelor's degree.

Also, (most) doctors work higher than average hours every week and have a relatively high-stress workplace.

Talking about salaries in terms of dollars per hour solves that problem. For example, the average resident is only making $12-$15 per hour (BEFORE taxes). Pretty ridiculous in my opinion.

Doctors do earn quite good money though, and its a stable living. You could go to the worst med school in the country, graduate at the bottom of your class, match into a mediocre family practice residency somewhere in the boonys, and you would *still* be virtually guaranteed a salary of at least $130k a year. No matter what socialized monstrosities the government tries to pass in the next few years, they can't cut doctors pay too much or no one will keep killing themselves to keep the system working. You probably won't become a millionaire as a physician, but life will be good, and as long as you're smart, you'll be able to retire at a decent age with enough for anyone to be happy.

I agree for the most part, except that I think the non-millionaire (retired) physicians are going to be a small minority. Would be interesting if anyone had actual numbers though.

consider the number of hours doctors have to work. the hourly salary isn't all that high compared to the alternative careers. from a money perspective not worth the extra hard work, opportunity costs, and debt.

Well, I think to have a truly unbiased opinion based solely on numbers one would have to do the following exercise:

take the total amount of money made in ones lifetime and divide it by the total number of hours spent "working" (working = studying, attending class, volunteering, residency, etc) to get your total lifetime "$/hours worked" and then compare it to several different careers. I understand that doctors probably work more hours in their lives than about 75% of all other professions, but the compensation is also much higher (again, relatively, about 2-3 times higher). Even if the doctor only make $1 per hour more than another profession, it is worth it because this equation takes into account all hours spent "working" (and thus treats studying as work with delayed payment). I would rather be paid $20/hour studying and doing something I love than make $15/hour (again, overall in my life) doing something less meaningful.

Unfortunately I digressed a bit, but my point still remains. I will do the calculation later, but I think even after considering ALL of the hours of work it takes to be a doctor and summing them all up to have a "lifetime hours" value, and then dividing that value into the total net compensation (after taxes) minus any student debt, the doctor's total lifetime "$/hours worked" will still be at least 2X higher than the average bachelor's degree.

 

[HoboCommander]

I think even after considering ALL of the hours of work it takes to be a doctor and summing them all up to have a "lifetime hours" value, and then dividing that value into the total net compensation (after taxes) minus any student debt, the doctor's total lifetime "$/hours worked" will still be at least 2X higher than the average bachelor's degree.

You can say the same about the best engineers or dentists or pharmeceutical chemists. Keep in mind that the medical field attracts the very best people, who could have picked other careers and make at least as much money. Compared to how hard you have to work to be a doctor, how much harder you have to work to be a specialist, it would seem much easier to just join the business world and make a LOT more money with less effort.

If anyone could be a doctor, then I agree that doctors make good money. But the fact that only the best students can make it these days, then the money argument makes no sense, because these same people can make the same amount of money with less effort in a different field.

 

[taponthecloud]

Unfortunately I digressed a bit, but my point still remains. I will do the calculation later, but I think even after considering ALL of the hours of work it takes to be a doctor and summing them all up to have a "lifetime hours" value, and then dividing that value into the total net compensation (after taxes) minus any student debt, the doctor's total lifetime "$/hours worked" will still be at least 2X higher than the average bachelor's degree.

Why do you keep making this simple argument that everyone already understands. Of course someone with a doctorate will likely make more money than someone with only a bachelor's. No one is disagreeing with you on this so put your little calculator away... The main point is that considering the years of training a doctor goes through, time invested, and great debt incurred, it's probably wise to forgo such sacrifice and enter another field if making money is your primary goal.

 

[Blade28]

The other thing to consider is that for many med students, the prospects of graduating with over $150k in debt and entering a residency program with a minimal salary (around $37-42k) tends to deter some folks from entering the lower-paying primary care fields.

You don't want to be finishing up in your early 30s (or later), saddled with a huge six-figure debt, working 70 hours a week and making less than $100k after taxes.

 

[Smctbone]

True, but in the average doctor's lifetime he/she can expect to make significantly more than most other professions. When all is said and done, a doctor making $135,000 per year (after taxes) from the age of 30 to the age of 55 will make an overall income of $3.375 million. Even subtracting off med school debt (with interest included) and you will still make well over $3 million before retirement. Compare that to a teacher who starts teaching at $37,000 per year (after taxes) from age 22-55 and will make $1.221 million in his/her life. The doctor can still hope to make between 2-3 times a standard bachelor's degree.

I dont know how youre coming up with this $100k indebtedness figure. Tuition alone will avg about $25k/yr (low $16k, high $40k). That alone brings a debt of $100k. Cost of living is roughly $15k/yr. Add on insurance, school fees, books, and basic transportation and youre looking at at least another $9-10k/yr. Now, unless your parents happen to be coughing this money, that brings the debt load to $200k for med school.

Rule of thumb, loans double every 7 yrs. So, by the time you finish residency, your M1 loans will have doubled to $100k. Over the next couple yrs you suddenly have $400k to pay back. Using a standard 10 yr amortization schedule, youll have to pay $4900 per month...ultimately costing you $590k. This assumes you (somehow) dont have any undergraduate (or graduate) debt. That leaves you with no more than $5000 per month spending/living money (your numbers are high for most PC physicians, who make $8k/month after taxes, leaving $3k/month spending/living money).

Interesting how somehow can spend 12yrs becoming a physician then live the next 10yrs on $36k-60k/yr.
(but again, some of us actually had to get loans for undergrad and grad school, so this is definitely a conservative estimate...those loans will have doubled 2 fold at beginning of repayment). 👍

 

[Concubine]

The tuition averages are a bit misleading. There are plenty of people like me that go to private institutions with no financial aid or go OOS at a state school and come out of school with >$200,000. In other words, don't plan on being the lucky one that only takes out $100,000 in loans.

 

[parto123]

Frankly, I've been kind of disturbed by the prevalent opinion here on SDN. I have now read on numerous occasions something to the effect of "If you're in it for the money, it's not worth it." Granted, I do not believe going into medicine simply to be "rich" is going to lead to happiness or a fulfilling career, but physicians are still some of the most highly compensated individuals in the United States.

For example, the average emergency medicine physician will bring home $5140.05 every two weeks, AFTER TAXES. That is over 10 grand per month! Right now I would have to work full time for about 8 months to make that kind of money. This works out to about $55.87 per hour (again, this is still after taxes). If I were to move to full time doing what I do, I would only make $11.66 per hour after taxes. So as a physician I can reasonably expect to make about 5X what I am making per hour while in college, and about 2X what I could expect to make with only a bachelor's degree. This is a lucrative business!

I prefer numbers if you think I am wrong...

Its not about rich vs. poor, its about opportunity cost. Those accepted to MD programs, are usually pretty smart with strong academic credentials. Many (true, not all) MDs could have gone to jobs that paid more sooner. For example, if a 22 year old applicant gets accepted Columbia law and Columbia medicine, if he chooses law he will be making around 200k at age 26, and around 300k by age 30, all while incurring less debt in the process. If such applicant chooses to go to med school, by the time they are done with residency, they will have foregone over a million dollars in income.

Also, your random example of med salaries (ER), just happened to have been one of the areas with the highest pay.

 

[DrChristianTroy]

I dont know how youre coming up with this $100k indebtedness figure. Tuition alone will avg about $25k/yr (low $16k, high $40k). That alone brings a debt of $100k. Cost of living is roughly $15k/yr. Add on insurance, school fees, books, and basic transportation and youre looking at at least another $9-10k/yr. Now, unless your parents happen to be coughing this money, that brings the debt load to $200k for med school.

Rule of thumb, loans double every 7 yrs. So, by the time you finish residency, your M1 loans will have doubled to $100k. Over the next couple yrs you suddenly have $400k to pay back. Using a standard 10 yr amortization schedule, youll have to pay $4900 per month...ultimately costing you $760k. This assumes you (somehow) dont have any undergraduate (or graduate) debt. That leaves you with no more than $5000 per month spending/living money (your numbers are high for most PC physicians, who make $8k/month after taxes, leaving $3k/month spending/living money).

Interesting how somehow can spend 12yrs becoming a physician then live the next 10yrs on $36k-60k/yr.
(but again, some of us actually had to get loans for undergrad and grad school, so this is definitely a conservative estimate...those loans will have doubled 2 fold at beginning of repayment). 👍

Almost every loan that you will get for Med. School will allow you to defer payment until after internship and residency. If the loan is subsidized, you won't even have to pay any interest payments during that time period. If it is un-subsidized you will be responsible for the interst payments (not principal) during residency. If you do not make these payments, then they will be added to the principal balance. Therefore the debt will not be in the $760k range as you are suggesting.

Also the MSAR figures about average indebtness are way off because they include students who are having their parents pay full tuition (happens more than we would think) and large scholarships (if only we could get one of these). Most students do end up with around $200k of debt after medical school as suggested by many other people in this thread.

 

[Depakote]

You keep saying docs will be making ~$135K after taxes. That may be true for some specialties, but many primary care specialties average that before taxes.

Now, take that number and tack on the fact that I've got about ~$100K of accumulated debt from undergrad and my first year of med school with 3 years to go, then another undetermined number of low-pay years during residency. For the possibility of coming out to a pretty high debt.

Yes, once I dig myself out, I should be able to live pretty comfortably on whatever I am making, even at the low end of the pay-scale. But please don't imply that the physicians are making loads of excess money. Especially with medicare and other insurance reimbursements going down and malpractice premiums going up.

 

[Concubine]

Almost every loan that you will get for Med. School will allow you to defer payment until after internship and residency.

Ha ha, not anymore. i think there was a bill recently passed that will force residents to start paying on there loans instead of waiting (I believe up to 15%, I may be wrong, of their income).

 

[MacGyver]

Residents get one more year (until July 2009) of the 20/220 economic deferment. After that, we have to start paying back loans DURING residency.

 

[Muppet Show]

*Chirp Chirp* What's that little bird in my head? *Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp* Are you trying to tell me that it's roughly a decade of training and you come out with ~$200k in debt? *Chirp Chirp Chirp* No, I don't believe OP is a douchebag...

lol im laughing at you what a total loss of humanity you are you most be a disgusting person in real life have fun imagining all those careers that pay 100,000 dollars to folks with a BS in biology lol all of sdn is people with no real perspective on the way the world works

 

[Smctbone]

Almost every loan that you will get for Med. School will allow you to defer payment until after internship and residency. If the loan is subsidized, you won't even have to pay any interest payments during that time period. If it is un-subsidized you will be responsible for the interst payments (not principal) during residency. If you do not make these payments, then they will be added to the principal balance. Therefore the debt will not be in the $760k range as you are suggesting.

Point taken. But subsidized loans are limited to $8500 per year, so the total debt paid will only be about $50k less.

And for the record, that $760k was a complete typo - read it as $590k, down to $540k taking your correction. The rest of the numbers are similar, with a monthly loan payment of $4500 (excluding undergrad and grad loans).

My point is that, regardless of how anal we get about the numbers here, for 10 yrs, half of a physician's take-home-salary goes toward paying off all the debt it took to become a physician. So you cant simply claim that a physician takes in 2-3 times more than other professions without taking into account ridiculously high loan payback.

 

[goodlookinrebel]

I dont know why you would even bother comparing physician salaries with undergrad degree salaries. Who makes any money with a BA or BS? Rather compare the salaries with those of other post-grad grads, and doctors still come out ok.

Medicine just has to be something that you really want to do. I could be a highschool teacher and still make very good money. If I were to pursue that route then within a few years(+) I would be making $100k year, have all of my debt paid off, and have roughly half a million allready saved up(thats if I played my cards right). That would be around the time that I would have finished my residency if I had chose the MD route. If anyone wants to become a doctor purely or even mostly for the money then, well, I dont know
what to tell ya. You could enter another profession earlier and retire comfortably before a physician could. That is unless you have a $1000k a day coke habit, or the need to constantly be buying expensive crap, then by all means become a specialist.

Even if you could make $1,000,000 a year after taxes, what is it that you want so badly to buy?

Oh and a post script: If you want to avoid winey, cry baby, jaded, a-hole MDs who dont like themselves, anyone else, or what they do for a living, then dont check md forums or blogs(with a few exceptions).

 

[WinterLights]

This debate has been hashed and rehashed. Its pointless. Some people are not satisfied with the amount of money they will make, and some are. Each person is different and some are more bitter about debt than others. Some people (myself included) think the amount of money made is more than enough.

 

[nycfella]

*Chirp Chirp*

What's that little bird in my head?


*Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp Chirp*

Are you trying to tell me that it's roughly a decade of training and you come out with ~$200k in debt?


*Chirp Chirp Chirp*

No, I don't believe OP is a douchebag...

This has to have been the funniest thing I have ever read on SDN. Even funnier than that "[expletive] please" write your own rejection letter response.

 

[ChemGrad08]

I could be a highschool teacher and still make very good money. If I were to pursue that route then within a few years(+) I would be making $100k year

I'm not disagreeing with your point but this quote seems a little out there, unless you're somehow managing to make 50k in the summer doing something, I can't imagine a normal teacher's salary going above 60k/yr.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that being a doctor is a really safe way to make money. In business and engineering you can start out paid well but you have to prove yourself, and for those of use who are very much so into right and wrong answers sometimes these fields can be a little too gray to be successful in. Also you're at the whim of the economy which is why application to med school goes up during economic downturns (e.g. now).

 

[NJDIF]

i wish i would only be 100k in debt🙁

those "averages" are misleading for everyday joe med student. when they give you those numbers, they average in the people on full ride/partial scholarship, MD/PhD students (who pay nothing), etc so yeah, the average is definitely lower. that 200k+ number mentioned before is way more realistic.

 

[Hoosiers15]

everyone keeps talking about these other careers that you can get out of college, but I don't know what they are. Can someone list these jobs so I know what you're talking about?

 

[piss ant]

everyone keeps talking about these other careers that you can get out of college, but I don't know what they are. Can someone list these jobs so I know what you're talking about?

They know not of what they speak.

 

[spicedmanna]

Ordinarily, Physicians do make good money; they are living comfortably. However, when you consider that it takes an average physician ten years to get to there, factor in $500K of debt, the delayed gratification and difficulty of the process, possibly working long hours, insane amounts of paperwork, patient's demanding more than ever, and getting surrounded by all sides by money-hungry insurance companies, HMO's, pharmaceutical companies, and hospital administration, all looking to get more out of the physician for less, you begin to think that there are better professions out there. You put out a lot up front to get there and deal with a lot when you are there. Basically, I think you have to like what you are doing, for it to be worth it, in my opinion. The heathcare system as changed a lot since the days of the "good ole' doc." It's no longer as good for the physician as it once was. It's still pretty good, though, in my opinion, as long as you are willing to put up with some of the negatives.

 

[deleted74029]

Yeah and this is GAURANTEED money, as someone stated earlier the least you could possibly make is around 130,000. Whereas there are numerous lawyers and businessmen who bring in <70,000 a year. There probably isn't a doctor in the country who makes that.

 

[goodlookinrebel]

unless you're somehow managing to make 50k in the summer doing something, I can't imagine a normal teacher's salary going above 60k/yr.

The whole idea of the underpaid teacher is a myth in large cities like NYC or Chi-town or SF. In Chicago an MA grad would be making $80k within three years. Then six years after that, with yearly increases, and assuming your continuing your education, you can be making over $100k, debt free, and with large sum of savings. Check out this link:

http://www.cps-humanresources.org/Employee/Forms/SalAdm/FTTeachers52.pdf

Scroll to the bottom to check the pay increases planned over the next five years. Teaching can be a very lucrative profession if you want it to be. Also you can get most if not all of your debt cancelled by teaching in an underserved community. Better hours. Around three months of vacation a year. 👍

 

[thatscorrect7]

ive also given this stuff a thought.
can one view the process of becoming a doctor as an initiation into a exclusive club composed of people having suffered through physical, emotional, and financial hardships or something?

do you make any money as an intern?
and how much money on average does a resident make?

 

[Flamen04]

Even if you only earn 50k per year after taking debt payments into account, that is still plenty of money to live a decent lifestyle. 5k per month would pay your mortgage, utilities, cable, internet, phone, car, gas, and still have money left over for miscellaneous stuff...

 

[ChemGrad08]

http://www.cps-humanresources.org/Employee/Forms/SalAdm/FTTeachers52.pdf

Those predictions seem a bit rosey to me (20k increase in 3 years, while tax revenue declines?), but I was thinking national averages:
http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...h School&hdCurrentTab=&hdNarrowDesc=Education

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

Point taken. But subsidized loans are limited to $8500 per year, so the total debt paid will only be about $50k less.

And for the record, that $760k was a complete typo - read it as $590k, down to $540k taking your correction. The rest of the numbers are similar, with a monthly loan payment of $4500 (excluding undergrad and grad loans).

My point is that, regardless of how anal we get about the numbers here, for 10 yrs, half of a physician's take-home-salary goes toward paying off all the debt it took to become a physician. So you cant simply claim that a physician takes in 2-3 times more than other professions without taking into account ridiculously high loan payback.

Also, you do not have to do a 10 year repayment plan; I've got a buddy who recently became an attending anesthesiologist who's paying less that 1K per month on his debt of over 200K (I believe it's a 30 year payment plan). Granted he's going to pay more over the long-run; however, he's not strapped witha 4K loan payment per month. I guess it's all a matter of personal choice.

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

Even if you only earn 50k per year after taking debt payments into account, that is still plenty of money to live a decent lifestyle. 5k per month would pay your mortgage, utilities, cable, internet, phone, car, gas, and still have money left over for miscellaneous stuff...

It depends on what variables are present in your lifestyle/family. I agree, if you're single making 50k, you're gonna be fine (hell, I survive off of 40K now). However, throw into the equation a couple of kids, and it might be a different issue. Hopefully though, if the latter is the case, you'll be able to pool your income with a SO.

 

[deleted74029]

Edit

 

[scowdeva]

I also wanted to point something out to this discussion, as it's been mentioned more than once, is a pet peeve of mine, and I think does go to show how little real life experience a lot of people on these boards seem to have when it comes down to money...

A highly sought after teacher (ie science or math) STARTS at somewhere between 27k and 32k, depending on the district, and the vast majority of districts rarely ever hire new teachers. Seriously. My fiance is in this situation right now. He has just graduated from a five year highly respected teaching program, with certification in math and chemistry, and can't find a job anywhere except FL or AZ. Literally anywhere (he send out over 300 resumes to schools in the upper eastern states to try and keep us together). Teachers get paid according to a salary schedule, meaning that it is decided by a union and there is no negotiation when being hired to try and get more money. You get paid according to your education level (masters, extra credit hours above a bachelor's, PhD) and how many years you have worked in that exact school district. The highest pay that I have seen on a salary schedule (after working in the same school district for 25+ years and having a PhD) is just under 80k a year, pretaxes.

Point of rant: please, if you want to use a career as an example for what you can do to make money right out of college, don't use teaching. Teachers are severely underpaid for the amount of work they do.

 

[Dedikated2liftn]

Ordinarily, Physicians do make good money; they are living comfortably. However, when you consider that it takes an average physician ten years to get to there, factor in $500K of debt, the delayed gratification and difficulty of the process, possibly working long hours, insane amounts of paperwork, patient's demanding more than ever, and getting surrounded by all sides by money-hungry insurance companies, HMO's, pharmaceutical companies, and hospital administration, all looking to get more out of the physician for less, you begin to think that there are better professions out there. You put out a lot up front to get there and deal with a lot when you are there. Basically, I think you have to like what you are doing, for it to be worth it, in my opinion. The heathcare system as changed a lot since the days of the "good ole' doc." It's no longer as good for the physician as it once was. It's still pretty good, though, in my opinion, as long as you are willing to put up with some of the negatives.

Hey bro, that's free lunch (everyone deduct eating from his living expenses!).

 

[Muppet Show]

Most SDN Posters believe that making lots of money is easy but lol at them they cant even make real friends.

This debate has been hashed and rehashed. Its pointless. Some people are not satisfied with the amount of money they will make, and some are. Each person is different and some are more bitter about debt than others. Some people (myself included) think the amount of money made is more than enough.

WinterLights will make enough money to buy all the anime his heart desire

 

[Smctbone]

Even if you only earn 50k per year after taking debt payments into account, that is still plenty of money to live a decent lifestyle. 5k per month would pay your mortgage, utilities, cable, internet, phone, car, gas, and still have money left over for miscellaneous stuff...

Agreed. I'm far from bitter about the debt, mainly because I know I'll appreciate the lifestyle on $40k-ish. But obviously that varies between people and who knows whether or not I'll have 15 kids to raise. Most of us will be able to opt for a 20 yr or more payment plan (assuming you can stomach the idea of paying sooo much interest), so trying to live comfortably is a non-issue. This just highlights why you ought to have motivation to be a physician beyond the monetary gains.

and how much money on average does a resident make?

http://mdsalaries.blogspot.com/2005/10/residency-salaries.html

 

[njbmd]

Frankly, I've been kind of disturbed by the prevalent opinion here on SDN. I have now read on numerous occasions something to the effect of "If you're in it for the money, it's not worth it." Granted, I do not believe going into medicine simply to be "rich" is going to lead to happiness or a fulfilling career, but physicians are still some of the most highly compensated individuals in the United States.

For example, the average emergency medicine physician will bring home $5140.05 every two weeks, AFTER TAXES. That is over 10 grand per month! Right now I would have to work full time for about 8 months to make that kind of money. This works out to about $55.87 per hour (again, this is still after taxes). If I were to move to full time doing what I do, I would only make $11.66 per hour after taxes. So as a physician I can reasonably expect to make about 5X what I am making per hour while in college, and about 2X what I could expect to make with only a bachelor's degree. This is a lucrative business!

I prefer numbers if you think I am wrong...

Some physicians are well compensated but reimbursements are due to drop in July and again in 2009. These cuts come from Congress for Medicare and private insurance carriers follow Medicare. The other thing to consider that a fair proportion of working physicians today, did not have the huge loan payments for the cost of their medical education as folks who are graduating right now. The average debt for medical school today is over $160K with many folks owing for both undergraduate and medical school. This takes a huge chunk out of income right off the top as soon as you complete residency. Interest on these loans accrues during residency and adds significantly to the total cost of your education.

If you are not yet in medical school, if you are not wealthy, if you have loans outstanding for undergraduate/graduate education, your debt load load is going to be significantly higher than those physicians who graduated even in the 1990s. The interest rate on loans has also increased significantly too which needs to be taken into consideration.

You also have to understand that depending on your performance in medical school, you may not be eligible to enter the specialties that are higher paying. This is even most likely because the the higher paying specialties go to the top 1/4th of the class meaning that 75% of the class isn't going to be competitive for these specialties based on school performance. Emergency medicine is competitive and you need to have the medical school grades/board scores to be competitive for this specialty. This is easier said than done. The same goes for surgical specialties which are competitive and have long residencies where that interest ticks away.

It's pretty naive to look at the salaries of currently practicing physicians and base your career decisions on these salaries especially if you have not yet entered medical school. With reimbursements being cut every year and malpractice premiums increasing, you can't predict what your earnings will be at this point. Medicine is not a significant money maker relative to the cost of school and training.

I graduated in 2002 with a total cost of education of $30K for undergraduate/graduate and medical school at 2% interest. That was only six years ago. The cost of attending my undergraduate school (doubled since I attended) and medical school (significantly increased) in addition to the increased cost of living will make most people even graduating today starting out with far more debt than I incurred at a much higher interest rate.

If money is your aim, choose something else that doesn't take as long and where you incur lower educational costs and a higher salary once you get into the field. It's just not there for the vast majority of physicians that are entering the field today especially primary care where the vast majority of medical school grads will end up.

 

[strongboy2005]

You can say the same about the best engineers or dentists or pharmeceutical chemists. Keep in mind that the medical field attracts the very best people, who could have picked other careers and make at least as much money. Compared to how hard you have to work to be a doctor, how much harder you have to work to be a specialist, it would seem much easier to just join the business world and make a LOT more money with less effort.

If anyone could be a doctor, then I agree that doctors make good money. But the fact that only the best students can make it these days, then the money argument makes no sense, because these same people can make the same amount of money with less effort in a different field.

See, but you are mischaracterizing my argument entirely. I am not arguing that a doctor could not conceivably have made more money doing something else, only that as a doctor the money is very good. By very good I mean that I WILL make more money than both of my parents have made, COMBINED. About 2X as much as them, COMBINED. If you become a doctor, you will be wealthy (maybe not IMMEDIATELY, as a resident, or even in your first few years afterward, but in the LONG RUN).

Again, my argument is not that there aren't other professions out there that a person could conceivably make more money, only that being a physician is a pretty sure way to retire a millionaire.

 

[Flamen04]

It depends on what variables are present in your lifestyle/family. I agree, if you're single making 50k, you're gonna be fine (hell, I survive off of 40K now). However, throw into the equation a couple of kids, and it might be a different issue. Hopefully though, if the latter is the case, you'll be able to pool your income with a SO.

Well, even if you have a kid, it's possible to survive on 50k income. Things will be tight for the ten years when you are paying off the loans, but after that, it should be no problem.

 

[spicedmanna]

Again, my argument is not that there aren't other professions out there that a person could conceivably make more money, only that being a physician is a pretty sure way to retire a millionaire.

No, I would disagree with you on that. You are assuming too much and being naive. Most physicians I know aren't millionaires and never will be. They are definitely living comfortably, at the upper levels of income for our society, but not like business execs or bankers, etc. Some physicians work very hard for their money, in fact. Ever see a busy FP busting his butt, for a small percentage of the patient's visit? What about the primary care physician working for an HMO? The average FP makes something like $150K before taxes, etc., and as was already mentioned, not everybody can do lifestyle and high-paying specialties. Many doctors are relying on increasingly diminishing reimbursements. They have to increase their patient load to make the same amount. It's the insurance companies and HMO's that are profiting these days.

 

[barto123]

with medical education spiraling out of control and mid levels taking on more responsibility and in many cases earning just as much as physicians with far fewer years of education and at a much lower dollar cost of education, doctors should be complaining about compensation given in primary care esp FP. it's not even financially reasonable to go into FP anymore to earn btwn 120 and 150K if you spent 10 years in preparation and have a 250K debt. mid levels can in many cases do the same job most FPs do and they cost far less, that's why PCPs cant earn a fair salary anymore when taking into account indebtedness. although PCPs salaries have more or less remained constant in real dollars over the years, their salaries do not take into account the ridiculous inflation of medical education costs.

 

[goodlookinrebel]

Point of rant: please, if you want to use a career as an example for what you can do to make money right out of college, don't use teaching. Teachers are severely underpaid for the amount of work they do.

I dont know what life experience has to do with it. I have done a lot of research, you say that you have, and our numbers are very different. It wont be the first time that this sort of thing has happened.

Maybe your fiance isnt applying to the right schools, because it defies all mathematical logic, not to mention the BLUNT FORCE OF THE HAMMER THAT IS THE WILL OF HASHEM!!!, that he would not be able to find a job with those credentials. Teaching is similiar to nursing in that you will always have a job if you search hard and dont have unrealistic standards. Obviously there is more to the story.

 

[Docington]

I agree with the OP and to all those arguements about all the hard work in medical school etc. making the salary not really worth it think about this. 99 percent of bachelors degree holders will never make it to six figures. Whereas the MD expects to make six figures. The Bachelors that do make it to six figures have generally worked 20 plus years to get to that management position and along the way they were the exceptional employee and passed up the other 90% of bachelors degree holders.

I say it is easier to finish medical school and be guaranteed a good salary then to work your entire life trying to make it to the top and eventually failing because someone with a higher degree made it or someone who knows the boss got the job over you. 4 years plus residency doesn't sound so bad if you think about how long the above average bachelors degree holder has to work to get to six figures, and most don't. My mom has been a manager at a major health care system in california(non medical)for 30 years and still only makes in the 90,000 range. She works 16 hr days regularly and manages over 650 employees in 15 different buildings. It took her 20 years to break 90,000 a year.

 

[spicedmanna]

I agree with the OP and to all those arguements about all the hard work in medical school etc. making the salary not really worth it think about this. 99 percent of bachelors degree holders will never make it to six figures. Whereas the MD expects to make six figures. The Bachelors that do make it to six figures have generally worked 20 plus years to get to that management position and along the way they were the exceptional employee and passed up the other 90% of bachelors degree holders.

I say it is easier to finish medical school and be guaranteed a good salary then to work your entire life trying to make it to the top and eventually failing because someone with a higher degree made it or someone who knows the boss got the job over you. 4 years plus residency doesn't sound so bad if you think about how long the above average bachelors degree holder has to work to get to six figures, and most don't. My mom has been a manager at a major health care system in california(non medical)for 30 years and still only makes in the 90,000 range. She works 16 hr days regularly and manages over 650 employees in 15 different buildings. It took her 20 years to break 90,000 a year.

Yeah, but most of them didn't take ten years to hit the job market and enter into it hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, having essentially spent their young adult lives in school, a part of which you are basically slave labor for hospitals and clinics. Also, most of them don't have money-hungry pimps trying to bleed them to death at each turn. It's better if you compare apples with apples.

 

[Muppet Show]

having essentially spent their young adult lives in school,

spicedmanna, what do you think you would be doing that is so great with your young adult life if school didnt exist? edit: you would still be lonely and unbearable in social gatherings

 

[deleted74029]

I swear if someone didn't know any better they'd think doctors were below the poverty line if they read these forums.

 

[Depakote]

just a reminder: