why do programs give a crap about research/publications?

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[Faebinder]

You make it sound like programs bend over backwards trying to get someone with research and publications..... if your board scores are crappy and got multiple publications, you will still end up begging for interviews as opposed to someone with mediocre board scores and no publications.

 

[Loopo Henle]

It is all a game. Play it or not the choice is yours. I did no research but still managed to match at a top medicine residency. I always felt that no reearch was my Achilles heel. Believe me, You will want something to talk to all of these interviewers about otherwise you will mostly get the "Do you have any questions for us?" question followed by 20 minutes of awkwardness.

 

[Faebinder]

I donno but it seems to be there are many many tiers of selection and research doesn't move you up those tiers much...

First: USMLE 240+ and US grad. (Anything they want).

Second: USMLE 200-239 and US grad or USMLE 240+ and IMG. (Radiologists, Top Cat Surgery, Radio Onc)

Third: USMLE 183-200 and US grad or USMLE 200-239 and IMG. (IM, EM)

Fourth: USMLE 183-200 and IMG. (Anything they can get their hands on. Some IM, Some FP, Some Path, Some Ped)

If I am not mistaken from observing the last two matches... and my wife's match and myself.... You can try to jump from one section to the other but at best you would jump maybe one section up with icings like great class rankings or Alpha Omega Alpha or research or something... but I dont see someone jumping that far up.

Now granted it aint as simple as I draw it and I am sure there are several levels in between what I have (because you can complicate this more like including the fact if someone failed once or twice) but this is what I observed from my class and the last two matches.

Finally, I believe community hospitals don't care about research at all. They even declared that in some of my interviews. Quote "If you want research, go elsewhere."

Don't sweat research.... talk about the weather.....

 

[medoc]

It is all a game. Play it or not the choice is yours. I did no research but still managed to match at a top medicine residency. I always felt that no reearch was my Achilles heel. Believe me, You will want something to talk to all of these interviewers about otherwise you will mostly get the "Do you have any questions for us?" question followed by 20 minutes of awkwardness.

I understand your pessimism (and the OP's) regarding research and the medical application process. Let me clarify that the emphasis on research is NOT a game. The problem is that medical schools and residency programs are poor at communicating WHY original research is so important. Experimentation and the sharing of resulting knowledge has been a fundamental component of medical training ever since the application of the scientific approach to the healing practice, which has taken us beyond consideration of just leeches and the humors. I understand that several weeks (and I would argue even a year) of research is a superficial experience, and that the exercise appears to be a waste of time. But in as much as a given clinical clerkship is not expected to result in mastery in the respective clinical field, the short stint in science is expected to be a brief but meaningful exposure. Even a small understanding in the process of original research is critical in the shaping of the modern medical mind. I think people going through medical school now take for granted our multiple medical devices, small molecules, tyrosine kinase inhibitors, rapid genotyping protocols, monoclonal antibodies, the results of breakthrough clinical trials, etc., etc. I have to admit that from the surface, the practice of science appears to be a futile exercise in repetitive pipetting, data massage, and politics. Beyond the tedium, you should look hard to find a true spirit of innovation, and the methodical practice of applying rigor to the analysis of your ideas. A physician is expected to be a superior caregiver, but where would this practitioner fit in academic practice if he/she does not have a genuine desire to expand the foundations upon which medicine is practiced? The funny thing is that prejudice in favoring applicants with research/publication experience goes well beyond just housestaff training programs. You will see the same bias in the consideration of faculty advancement in academic/university medical programs. If you ask me, this bias is justified.

Good luck!

 

[MacGyver]

The bottom line is that the quasi-clinical research that most med students engage in is totally worthless.

I busted my ass for 2 years to get a top notch basic science paper in a major journal.

Clinical research is mostly a joke. Some fool writes up a case report on an interesting patient and gets published based on that. Its pretty pathetic.

Clinical research involves very little analytical thinking. Its cookie cutter. A high school student has all the skills necessary set up and analyze a clinical study, hell all he has to do is follow the cookie cutter mold thats already been set up. No original thinking required.

 

[neutropenic]

No original thinking required.

Isn't this much of medicine though?

 

[Faebinder]

I did one full year of research with a highly active professor. I ended up publishing 12 articles in 5 different major journals (2 of which were clinical trials) and was on 17 presentations at 9 different conferences and 1 movie and 1 magazine article (being edited still)..... I concluded... it's all about your scores and your class rankings. Although I am first to admit that the research has opened my eyes to things I never thought about. I learned a lot about the statistics (plotting survival curves with log rank vs Wilcoxon vs Tarone, ROC curves, Mann-Whitney test vs Wilcoxon Matched-pairs test), writing the manuscripts, getting the data from patients and the ins and outs of submitting IRB protocols. When/If I become an attending someday, it will be critical for me to know all this to get a paper through to the serious journals but.... 😴

I could ramble on.... in the end.... it's your scores. You are better off learning all that I learned as a fellow rather than as a med student....

 

[medoc]

I did one full year of research with a highly active professor. I ended up publishing 12 articles in 5 different major journals (2 of which were clinical trials) and was on 17 presentations at 9 different conferences and 1 movie and 1 magazine article (being edited still)..... I concluded... it's all about your scores and your class rankings. Although I am first to admit that the research has opened my eyes to things I never thought about. I learned a lot about the statistics (plotting survival curves with log rank vs Wilcoxon vs Tarone, ROC curves, Mann-Whitney test vs Wilcoxon Matched-pairs test), writing the manuscripts, getting the data from patients and the ins and outs of submitting IRB protocols. When/If I become an attending someday, it will be critical for me to know all this to get a paper through to the serious journals but.... 😴

I could ramble on.... in the end.... it's your scores. You are better off learning all that I learned as a fellow rather than as a med student....

Ugh, I seem to have gotten involved in this discussion before. To keep from saying the same thing twice, I'll link my posts from a previous thread. (I hope I do this right...)

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3677150&postcount=26

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3677397&postcount=28

In any case, congratulations on your achievements! In light of what you accomplished, do you honestly feel it was time wasted? Or rather, do you regret it?

Best of luck in your career!

 

[medoc]

You guys must have bleeding ears by now, so I'll make this short and get off the soap-box. Most people in the medical profession at all levels go through this struggle of how to balance research/publication and teaching with clinical practice. The truth is that if your aspirations are in academic practice, you need to be good at all three. If your aspiration is to go into private practice or to train in a community program, then why are you even bothering with this thread?

Research is not in any way a crutch or compensation for weakness in an application. It should be a complement to otherwise solid credentials for someone interested in academic practice. One problem is that many medical students do not appear to have the same sense of goal-directed thinking when it comes to their research as they would when approaching their clinical training. Have you seen students/residents languishing in the lab without direction or sense of purpose? I've seen it a lot. In fact, I used to be one of them! Be smart. Quantity is not better than quality. Be strategic in how you use your time and resources. Keep your clinical credentials strong so no one can question your dedication to patient care.

As for the OP's question about WHEN to do the research, I don't have a good answer for you. Theres a gazillion ways to skin this cat, but I would just advise you to be as goal-directed as possible and to make the experience meaningful when/if you do it.

Cheers!

 

[Clemson Doc]

I can relate to not caring about doing research. I want to go to a top residency program with a primary care/general IM track, so hopefully they don't care about research. I see the need for it, but I want to see patients and learn how to better manage someone's care and leave the research to someone else who enjoys it more than I.

 

[tibor75]

now i don't mean to say that research isn't valuable. i believe quite the contrary. i do mean to suggest that med student research is almost universally garbage (i am sure there are exceptions, but 99% is worthless). obviously a howard hughes year or a PhD is different, but most med student projects in the clinical years are 4 week electives possibly 8 weeks at most. there is no possible way that you can actually do any meaningful research in that timeframe. if you get a publication, it is not likely to be due to your ideas anyway, and most of the work probably wasn't yours. maybe you did a project between 1st and 2nd year, wow, three whole months of you doing exactly what your PI or post-doc tell you to. what is so impressive about this?.

at this logic.

I worked on a research project during med school which ended up getting me a 1st author publication. was it my idea? no, of course not. But I did learn how to compile data, how to perform basic statistics, how to use Excel, and how to write a paper and deal with revisions. I aslo presented this work at a major cardiology meeting so I learned how to write an abstract, how to make a poster, how to present it in person to a bunch of other doctorbs, etc. When I did another research project in residency, it went much, much easier because I had learned many of the basic skills.
Was it ground breaking work that I did? No. But I got it published in a major cardiology journal (not the best) and it has been referenced 29 times in 6 years, so it's clearly not "worthless"

Only those who have no idea of what research is would poo-poo a medical student trying to get research experience.

The mistake many medical students make is working on a project that won't lead to publication and working under another trainee which won't help you get a letter. If I had any advice for med students trying to get research experience, I'd recommend:

1. Working with somebody with a proven track record.

2. Work on a short term project. You don't have the time to get involved in a 5-10 year project.

3. Work directly with the attending. If he scuts you to the fellow, find somebody else.

 

[Faebinder]

at this logic.

I worked on a research project during med school which ended up getting me a 1st author publication. was it my idea? no, of course not. But I did learn how to compile data, how to perform basic statistics, how to use Excel, and how to write a paper and deal with revisions. I aslo presented this work at a major cardiology meeting so I learned how to write an abstract, how to make a poster, how to present it in person to a bunch of other doctorbs, etc. When I did another research project in residency, it went much, much easier because I had learned many of the basic skills.
Was it ground breaking work that I did? No. But I got it published in a major cardiology journal (not the best) and it has been referenced 29 times in 6 years, so it's clearly not "worthless"

Only those who have no idea of what research is would poo-poo a medical student trying to get research experience.

The mistake many medical students make is working on a project that won't lead to publication and working under another trainee which won't help you get a letter. If I had any advice for med students trying to get research experience, I'd recommend:

1. Working with somebody with a proven track record.

2. Work on a short term project. You don't have the time to get involved in a 5-10 year project.

3. Work directly with the attending. If he scuts you to the fellow, find somebody else.

Absolutely what was said above is gold. All 3 points are critical. You have to do the leg work of going around and asking the secertaries of the department who publishes the most.. second most... etc etc.

 

[Hard24Get]

Absolutely what was said above is gold. All 3 points are critical. You have to do the leg work of going around and asking the secertaries of the department who publishes the most.. second most... etc etc.

Why can't you just Pubmed them?

 

[tibor75]

Why can't you just Pubmed them?

that works. although if the physician has a common name it may be diffcult (although you can also search by name and institution)

 

[Faebinder]

Pubmed works perfect but sometimes doctors retire from research and go to private practice. During their years in research they have a huge list of published things so you will be impressed by the list but the guy/lady really stopped doing research.

Sometimes the professor is just rising so he has 20 publications or 30 but is actively doing many research projects vs the guy who has 150 published but is doing 1 research project.

 

[Llenroc]

They want people to come there and do research. Someone who has done research before has showed interest in it. I would think that would be pretty obvious to figure out.