Why do so many pre-med programs require 2 semesters of Calculus?

[663697]

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I was looking at the prereqs for some US med schools, and I couldn't find anything about calculus being a prereq on there. However, a lot of premed programs that I've seen have 2 semesters of calculus as a mandatory requirement. If you don't take 2 semesters of calculus, are you still good to go when application time comes around?

 

[Banco]

What are "pre-med programs"? I know a lot of biology majors require up to calculus 2, but if your major doesn't require it then you don't have to take it since most med schools don't require it now.

 

[Ukpremed]

Top med schools like or require calculus. I think Duke requires it now.

 

[663697]

What are "pre-med programs"? I know a lot of biology majors require up to calculus 2, but if your major doesn't require it then you don't have to take it since most med schools don't require it now.

I know some people in a biology major that have to take calc 1 and 2, and others in the same major who have the option of only taking 1 and then a stats course in their 2nd semester. Do both account for the same credits?

 

[Banco]

I know some people in a biology major that have to take calc 1 and 2, and others in the same major who have the option of only taking 1 and then a stats course in their 2nd semester. Do both account for the same credits?

This really depends on your school specifically, but it sounds like both options fulfill the requirement for the major.

 

[gyngyn]

Calculus is an uncommon recommendation for medical schools.
Apparently, undergrads have a lot of tenured faculty who teach calculus...

 

[Lawpy]

Calculus is an uncommon recommendation for medical schools.
Apparently, undergrads have a lot of tenured faculty who teach calculus...

Or grad students or undergrad TAs. Calculus is the easiest math course to teach (and stats is even substantially easier than that)

 

[gyngyn]

Or grad students or undergrad TAs. Calculus is the easiest math course to teach (and stats is even substantially easier than that)

This doesn't explain why undergrad premed advisors continue to "require" calculus at the expense of the more useful math courses, though.

 

[Lawpy]

This doesn't explain why undergrad premed advisors continue to "require" calculus at the expense of the more useful math courses, though.

Oh. I was referring to your tenured prof comment. It's unnecessary for them to waste their time teaching calculus for no reason. Real analysis and vector calculus are an exception 😉

No one cares what undergrad advisers have to recommend, since they are usually severely misinformed. That's really up to the overarching administration that sets up arbitrary requirements.

 

[gyngyn]

There is really no reason for undergrad advisors to recommend/require courses that are of little material use to pre-meds, unless they feel that filling empty seats in unpopular courses is part of their job.

They could also just be really ill-informed.

 

[Lawpy]

There is really no reason for undergrad advisors to recommend/require courses that are of little material use to pre-meds, unless they feel that filling empty seats in unpopular courses is part of their job.

They could also just be really ill-informed.

The issue here is that the advisers tend to collaborate closely with biology departments to require/enforce silly requirements to make the administration look great. And it's not just calculus, but even senseless classes like animal physiology, algebra-based physics etc. At first glance, they seem harmless but it actually does nothing or even downright damage them in the long term

 

[deleted577188]

The issue here is that the advisers tend to collaborate closely with biology departments to require/enforce silly requirements to make the administration look great. And it's not just calculus, but even senseless classes like animal physiology, algebra-based physics etc. At first glance, they seem harmless but it actually does nothing or even downright damage them in the long term

Damage? Nahhhh...

 

[Avicenna]

I've taken math up to diff eq to cushion my sGPA
(My anatomy grade wasn't the greatest)

 

[gyngyn]

The issue here is that the advisers tend to collaborate closely with biology departments to require/enforce silly requirements to make the administration look great. And it's not just calculus, but even senseless classes like animal physiology, algebra-based physics etc. At first glance, they seem harmless but it actually does nothing or even downright damage them in the long term

What's wrong with algebra-based physics?

 

[deleted577188]

What's wrong with algebra-based physics?

Nothing at all.

 

[chemist16]

This doesn't explain why undergrad premed advisors continue to "require" calculus at the expense of the more useful math courses, though.

Except for stats, what in your opinion is a more useful math course? I feel like if you want to take any math in college, stats or calculus are the only options. Especially since by the time you get to college, you should know algebra. I also think that calculus is a good life skill to have. In this day and age where the majority of the American populace struggle to do basic math, such simple and beautiful language should be taught to everybody. But this latter part is my own opinion.

 

[Spinach Dip]

Except for stats, what in your opinion is a more useful math course? I feel like if you want to take any math in college, stats or calculus are the only options. Especially since by the time you get to college, you should know algebra. I also think that calculus is a good life skill to have. In this day and age where the majority of the American populace struggle to do basic math, such simple and beautiful language should be taught to everybody. But this latter part is my own opinion.

IMO, personal finance and investing are more valuable, even though they are not generally considered math classes.

 

[blackroses]

There is really no reason for undergrad advisors to recommend/require courses that are of little material use to pre-meds, unless they feel that filling empty seats in unpopular courses is part of their job.

They could also just be really ill-informed.

I'm going to have to go with "really ill-informed," considering my advisor almost peed his pants when I mentioned taking stats instead of calculus because there are now more med schools requiring stats than calc.

 

[Lawpy]

What's wrong with algebra-based physics?

Nothing at all.

It's an unhealthy and unstable mix of two things that shouldn't happen in the first place. It's better to discuss this elsewhere.

 

[deleted577188]

It's an unhealthy and unstable mix of two things that shouldn't happen in the first place. It's better to discuss this elsewhere.

Elsewhere like where?

Are you saying that algebra and physics should not be conjoined such that an algebraic physics course is offered? If so, you are out of your mind. (respectfully; honestly, I don't mean out of your mind in a bad way)

 

[Lawpy]

Elsewhere like where?

Are you saying that algebra and physics should not be conjoined such that an algebraic physics course is offered? If so, you are out of your mind. (respectfully; honestly, I don't mean out of your mind in a bad way)

If you say so! (but really, it's best to end the topic as is, or continue the convo elsewhere via PM/VM/social thread etc.).

 

[Axes]

It's an unhealthy and unstable mix of two things that shouldn't happen in the first place. It's better to discuss this elsewhere.

Algebra based physics is great for introducing physical concepts to people who don't have the time or inclination to master calculus.

 

[deleted577188]

If you say so! (but really, it's best to end the topic as is, or continue the convo elsewhere via PM/VM/social thread etc.).

Sure, PM me if you wish. I'm going to bed tonight though. Tomorrow is best.

 

[deleted577188]

Algebra based physics is great for introducing physical concepts to people who don't have the time or inclination to master calculus.

Or for people who want to become physicians, not physicists??

I'm pretty sure if calc-based physics was required instead of the lower algebra-based physics, most people would get through it just fine.

 

[deleted393595]

This doesn't explain why undergrad premed advisors continue to "require" calculus at the expense of the more useful math courses, though.

Stats - or rather Intro to Stats - is extremely basic and doesn't cover anything more than the T-Test, which has limited real world applicability.

Would be better to have a 1 year long Stats requirement in which ANOVA, MANOVA, etc are covered.

 

[Spirit of the Student Doc]

Calculus is an uncommon recommendation for medical schools.
Apparently, undergrads have a lot of tenured faculty who teach calculus...

Would you say it's a good idea not to take calculus altogether if one doesn't plan to apply to a top east coast school?

Say for example I have a few schools I'm going to apply to but and I'd be fine with them. But when I do apply (to more than the select half dozen) would I find myself in a nightmare scenario if I haven't calculus?

 

[Lawpy]

Sure, PM me if you wish. I'm going to bed tonight though. Tomorrow is best.

Sorry, but I don't really care because the topic isn't debatable. Yes, it's a matter of convenience and personal choice. In regards of subject content, the arguments I present are indisputable, which is why I stand by my comments regardless of whatever arguments are thrown on me. If anyone is interested, it's better to reach out to me separately since I don't want the thread to be derailed. In case you're curious though, here is what I mentioned in a previous thread.

There really isn't any debate regarding physics. If you want to focus on medical school without getting gored on details and technicalities, go for algebra-based physics.

It's an economic effect why classes like algebra-based physics are predominant even though Newton, Euler, Lagrange etc. shot it down back in the 1600s-1700s as absurdity (heck even Archimedes thought it was nonsensical). For some reason, AAMC wanted to emphasize the physical emphasis of medicine which is fine, except all physical aspects are described by calculus-based physics (fluid dynamics of blood pressure to Hodgkin-Huxley-like models of action potentials in neurons and cardiac cells).

Algebra-based physics, to put it simply but firmly, is a farce. There's no such thing as explaining physics using only algebra. If physics were to be mandated, at least make it complete by including the rest of the stuff involving calculus, dot and cross products etc.

Yeah i acknowledge that. I'm just a little peeved with AAMC for inconsistent physics policy. Either get rid of physics (and i'm fine with that) or provide a complete overlook of physics in calculus-based physics. Algebra-based physics is just an irritating mix of both. Luckily the 2015 MCAT deemphasizes physics to the point of eliminating altogether. I think that's the best approach.

For anyone reading it, please contact me separately in a PM/social thread etc. to avoid derailing the thread.

In regards to the thread topic, I don't know why premed programs require calculus because that's the matter of an undergraduate department decision making. Why medical schools require it is... well, up to the individual school. Some MD schools believe calculus has a strong role in medicine (and yes, I agree with that). Others don't care. And yet even few schools don't believe in any official requirements, but instead assess on "core competencies".

 

[Axes]

Or for people who want to become physicians, not physicists??

I'm pretty sure if calc-based physics was required instead of the lower algebra-based physics, most people would get through it just fine.

Yeah most pre meds fall under the "lack of inclination" umbrella.

 

[deleted577188]

Sorry, but I don't really care because the topic isn't debatable. Yes, it's a matter of convenience and personal choice. In regards of subject content, the arguments I present are indisputable, which is why I stand by my comments regardless of whatever arguments are thrown on me. If anyone is interested, it's better to reach out to me separately since I don't want the thread to be derailed. In case you're curious though, here is what I mentioned in a previous thread.




For anyone reading it, please contact me separately in a PM/social thread etc. to avoid derailing the thread.

In regards to the thread topic, I don't know why premed programs require calculus because that's the matter of an undergraduate department decision making. Why medical schools require it is... well, up to the individual school. Some MD schools believe calculus has a strong role in medicine (and yes, I agree with that). Others don't care. And yet even few schools don't believe in any official requirements, but instead assess on "core competencies".

When you mention that physics can't be explained without calculus I'll have to disagree. It's explainable, but it certainly was not discovered without higher maths- namely, calculus. By and large, I disagree with your statement.

I won't derail the thread either, and I have my own firm beliefs as well. I'm not open to hearing how much better calculus is versus algebra.

One last thing: you better be taking calculus-based physics. You have not told me anything that is indisputable. You are more than entitled to have an opinion. I disagree with you though.

 

[Lawpy]

When you mention that physics can't be explained without calculus I'll have to disagree. It's explainable, but it certainly was not discovered without higher maths- namely, calculus. By and large, I disagree with your statement.

I won't derail the thread either, and I have my own firm beliefs as well. I'm not open to hearing how much better calculus is versus algebra.

One last thing: you better be taking calculus-based physics. You have not told me anything that is indisputable. You are more than entitled to have an opinion. I disagree with you though.

In regards to physics, I discuss facts (and some history). Not opinions (since that's personal choice) 😉

 

[deleted577188]

In regards to physics, I discuss facts (and some history). Not opinions (since that's personal choice) 😉

OK 👍

 

[chemist16]

IMO, personal finance and investing are more valuable, even though they are not generally considered math classes.

I think personal finance is also a class that people should take because many Americans have no idea how to manage their money and many young people don't even know how credit works. But that would fall into the realm of the econ department and most liberal arts schools don't teach this sort of life skill course.

Back to the thread, I think that of the maths, stats is the most useful for medicine - especially Bayesian statistics. That is something that should be taught in every medical school in the country as part of the first year curriculum. It's so powerful in it's ability to explain the world around us. Basically, if something seems too odd to be true, it probably is. If you take an x-ray of an infant and see masses in the lungs, it's probably not cancer even though it looks exactly like it. I also believe that calculus is important because it can explain how things work around us without the need to work with infinite sums or limits. That's why physics is so related to calculus. Sure, you can gain a basic understanding of physics using limits and workarounds but calculus is at the core of physics. Look at the requirements for physics majors at universities. Most physics programs require upper level math courses. Here's an example. Without calculus, it is impossible (to my knowledge) to relate quantum mechanics to the observable world, especially since many infinite sums found in nature have no closed forms.