Why do students go to Caribbean when they can do SMP?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

AestheticGod

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
598
Reaction score
9
I was reading up on SMP and noticed the requirements are very low (30mcat, 3.0 gpa). Apparently a lot of the SMP schools has at least 50% of their students transferring to an MD school and 80% the next year, which i personally think is very high.

It made me wonder as to why anyone would apply to caribbean school when they can just get into an SMP program for 1 year and just transfer to an MD school.
I wondered the same thing for students going to DO school, why not just wait 1 year and go to an MD school instead?

Am i missing something there? 😕
 
$$$ and time, I'd think.
 
I was reading up on SMP and noticed the requirements are very low (30mcat, 3.0 gpa). Apparently a lot of the SMP schools has at least 50% of their students transferring to an MD school and 80% the next year, which i personally think is very high.

It made me wonder as to why anyone would apply to caribbean school when they can just get into an SMP program for 1 year and just transfer to an MD school.
I wondered the same thing for students going to DO school, why not just wait 1 year and go to an MD school instead?

Am i missing something there? 😕

Perhaps there's a difference in the types of kids who go into SMPs and those who go to Carib? My guess is that the ones who go into SMPs are perhaps more determined and would have had a reasonably better shot at getting into a med school than those who went to the Carib based on their stats and work habits and etc.
 
It's also possible that those going Caribbean are uninformed/misinformed about how those schools are viewed, and see it in black and white MD vs. DO.
 
$$$ and time, I'd think.
hmm, possibly. I saw that SMP program costs about 40k for one year, which is a lot I guess 😳 Still doesn't seem like a good choice since finding a spot in residency is horrible (at least from what I heard).

Perhaps there's a difference in the types of kids who go into SMPs and those who go to Carib? My guess is that the ones who go into SMPs are perhaps more determined and would have had a reasonably better shot at getting into a med school than those who went to the Carib based on their stats and work habits and etc.

Hmm, possibly. But isn't the stat requirements for Carribean still around 3.0 GPA and 30 mcat? So you think that could be the only reason why students would go Carribean instead of SMP (besides the money part)??

I just feel like I'm missing something, it just seems so much more logical to go to SMP.
 
Perhaps there's a difference in the types of kids who go into SMPs and those who go to Carib? My guess is that the ones who go into SMPs are perhaps more determined and would have had a reasonably better shot at getting into a med school than those who went to the Carib based on their stats and work habits and etc.

I think it's a combination of preference and values, as well as what's stated above.

If someone doesn't really have a preference between Caribbean or DO or USMD and just want to be a physician, they might not think it's worth it to spend the additional year or extra money (and lose one more year of an attending's salary in earnings) for an SMP when they could start medical school immediately.
 
People who are thinking of the Caribbean usually don't have a 30+ MCAT. Some do, but most don't. The avg gpa for the Caribbean schools is around the mid 20s. So...for a lot of those folks, they would get denied a SMP.
 
It's also possible that those going Caribbean are uninformed/misinformed about how those schools are viewed, and see it in black and white MD vs. DO.
definitely, I've met a lot of misinformed pre-meds who think Caribbean MD is a good option

There also seem to be a lot of people who think they will "be the best"/be able to do very well in their Caribbean med school and be able to match into a US residency
 
hmm, possibly. I saw that SMP program costs about 40k for one year, which is a lot I guess 😳 Still doesn't seem like a good choice since finding a spot in residency is horrible (at least from what I heard).

I agree. I think some people get caught up in the short term and want to start school right away. They often don't think as much about the long term consequences of that decision.
 
Maybe they haven't heard of an SMP. The first time I saw this was on SDN.

It's also possible that those going Caribbean are uninformed/misinformed about how those schools are viewed, and see it in black and white MD vs. DO.

Ya i'm going to agree with you guys on this one. I honestly didn't know about SMP until I read the post baccalaureate section on SDN.

So is there any negative aspects of going toward SMP (besides the 1 extra year+ tuition fee for that year)??
 
SMP: $30-60k. If you screw up, you're never getting into medical school. A year of your life for a "50%" chance of getting in the first time. "80%" chance of getting in the second time, but in the meantime you're stuck with $30-60k in student loans and another useless degree.

IMG schools: $200k? If you screw up, you might as well kill yourself, I guess. 50% chance of matching as an US IMG (note: this includes US citizens from Caribbean, European, Australian, etc. schools) but if you can do well in an SMP program you can probably do well in medical school and on Step I.
 
Hmm, possibly. But isn't the stat requirements for Carribean still around 3.0 GPA and 30 mcat? So you think that could be the only reason why students would go Carribean instead of SMP (besides the money part)??

SGU's matriculant stats were 3.4/27. The rest of the Caribbean schools have lower matriculant stats. An SMP might compensate for a low gpa, but not a low MCAT.
 
SGU's matriculant stats were 3.4/27. The rest of the Caribbean schools have lower matriculant stats. An SMP might compensate for a low gpa, but not a low MCAT.

Idk about you, but those stats are enough to at least give the application cycle a try (though maybe with a higher MCAT).

As for SMP, I think you're right, but if people have dug a hole for themselves GPA wise, then DO would be the best option money and time wise since grade replacement will allow almost anyone to have a second chance. I just don't think many people know what it is or see it as "below a true physician" though the stats for DO are rising.
 
Idk about you, but those stats are enough to at least give the application cycle a try (though maybe with a higher MCAT).

As for SMP, I think you're right, but if people have dug a hole for themselves GPA wise, then DO would be the best option money and time wise since grade replacement will allow almost anyone to have a second chance. I just don't think many people know what it is or see it as "below a true physician" though the stats for DO are rising.
but the Caribbean schools do grade replacement as well, counting only the highest grade earned (like DO schools), so that 3.4 average GPA for SGU matriculants might be lower if it were calculated by AMCAS
 
I think it comes down to time and money for many (most?) applicants. I thought about applying to SMPs, but wasn't too thrilled with the cost and time... so I applied US MD and DO. I didn't get into US MD but I got into my top 2 DO schools. This time, it came down to time and risk. I could have passed on the DO acceptances and applied again, but the time and risk was too high IMO. I'm happy where I am. I'm not looking for neurosurgery, ROAD, or a top 10 residency program. Besides, with the 2015 ACGME/AOA merger time will only tell how the US MD/DO applicant pool will change for residencies across the board.

I didn't consider Caribbean one bit.
 
Not everybody has rich parents, kids. For poor adults like me, spending $70k on an SMP is just not an option.
 
Not everybody has rich parents, kids. For poor adults like me, spending $70k on an SMP is just not an option.

The Temple program is the only one I would ever consider because it offers guaranteed matriculation to Temple if one meets certain GPA and MCAT requirements. Forget any other program, it's too risky -- the equivalent of betting $50,000 on a coin toss.
 
Not everybody has rich parents, kids. For poor adults like me, spending $70k on an SMP is just not an option.
the people I know who have done SMPs are not rich at all and had no family support and took out loans.

it's not like Caribbean med schools are cheap. 4 years at SGU will cost you $287k (based on their 2011 rates)
 
oh come on it's NOT 70K

The closest one to where I live costs 50k; living and book expenses surpass 20k easily.
Having seen many medical students, the average allopathic student definitely seems more privileged to me than the ones at osteopathic schools.
 
While not necessarily SMP, many private schools have "finishing programs" with extremely strong linkages, and they aren't all $50-$70K. Post bac programs. Certificate programs. Regular masters programs that essentially exist to funnel students into their med school afterwards.

In fact, with all of the programs with more or less reserved slots in a medical school, the number of actual open positions at a private medical school can be surprisingly small.
 
I think time and money are two important factors as to why people don't do SMPs. I think another factor is that a SMP is meant for bettering ones chances at medical school. It does not hold the same valve as a traditional masters in the working world. In other words, just by doing well at a SMP does not guarantee acceptance to a medical school. Thus time and money is lost, if that SMP does not have any job value. However, with a traditional masters it still has job value and one can progress to a PhD.

If one were to choose between applying to DO schools vs. a SMP to increase ones chances at an MD school (I know this forum is about applying SMP vs. carebbean but I just want to state this). The DO school will outweigh the SMP any day. Applying DO is less time wasted and getting in is a guarantee one will become a doctor.
 
Last edited:
Generally, students who go to SMP programs have a pretty decent application except for their GPA, and they're willing to spend an extra year or two under immense pressure to do well in order to get into a US med school. People will go to the Caribbean if they don't feel waiting the extra couple of years, or if they don't know about SMPs, and they are betting on the fact that there have been people from Caribbean schools who have matched into US residencies.
 
I know someone who couldn't get above a 20 on the MCAT (her GPA is around 3.3) so she off to the Caribbean now in January (to a school that boast about not requiring an MCAT of all things). Family insists she has what it takes to be a doctor, she's not good at test taking. Lord knows how she'll pass the Step I.

So, seems to me Caribbean is for delusional people.
 
I know someone who couldn't get above a 20 on the MCAT (her GPA is around 3.3) so she off to the Caribbean now in January (to a school that boast about not requiring an MCAT of all things). Family insists she has what it takes to be a doctor, she's not good at test taking. Lord knows how she'll pass the Step I.

That's rough. Who knows, maybe she will do well on the Steps. That's the risk she is taking.
 
My friend went to Berkeley. She had good grades, publications, etc. and applied. She got interviews in CA schools (her home state), but she was ultimately put on wait lists only. She felt frustrated and like the system had failed her because it was a gamble. In comes Ross University offering her a small scholarship and saying she can finish in 1.5 years. Knowing students loans would kick in otherwise, problems with the job market and being impatient, she went ahead and took it. Almost everyone I've met in the Caribbean (4-5 people) have been victims of the same circumstances. They also never applied to DO because they of misconceptions and wanting an MD.
 
So is there any negative aspects of going toward SMP (besides the 1 extra year+ tuition fee for that year)??

Yes. SMP's are risky. If you do not do well (could be because of a new environment, family issues, not what you expected....etc), your med school chances are shot. It is seen as a last resort.
 
So is there any negative aspects of going toward SMP (besides the 1 extra year+ tuition fee for that year)??

For that 1+ year, you need to eat, sleep and breathe getting a 3.6+ in your program. If you don't, then not only are you stuck with a crappy undergrad GPA, you are also stuck with a poor performance in classes that are supposed to resemble (or are the same as) medical school classes, so you've essentially shown adcoms that you can't handle medical school. But if you are someone who is highly motivated to do well and is willing to give up pretty much everything but studying and staying healthy while studying, then an SMP can really help you by showing adcoms that you are dedicated to medicine and have what it takes to do well in med school, despite what the numbers say.
 
I was visiting my mother at a specialty hospital in Jacksonville, and pursued the wall of physicians.

Out of 12 of them, 7 of them came from either Mexican schools of medicine or the Caribbean.

Mind you, this place is affiliated with a the major hospital system in town.

Kind of castes a shadow of doubt on the hatred that SDN has for international medical schools.
 
I was visiting my mother at a specialty hospital in Jacksonville, and pursued the wall of physicians.

Out of 12 of them, 7 of them came from either Mexican schools of medicine or the Caribbean.

Mind you, this place is affiliated with a the major hospital system in town.

Kind of castes a shadow of doubt on the hatred that SDN has for international medical schools.

I mean I think it's pretty obvious that some US MD students are elitist to the point where they judge and criticize Caribbean MD students and see themselves as "above" them. The only situation where I see them as "above" them is in terms of getting a residency. They are not necessarily "better" people or "better" future physicians. It's just arrogance and a sense of entitlement. It's widely recognized that the Caribbean schools are a last resort, but they also do give a second chance to many. And it's true that due to their less rigorous admissions process, there are more students there than in US MD schools that probably shouldn't be there, but whatever, the ones that shouldn't be there won't make it through. The one's that work hard there will have a better chance. I just don't understand why US students have to hate on these Caribbean students that actually do work against all odds to make it back to the US and become good doctors. I don't even know why I'm posting this, I'm probably going to take a ton of flak from SDN like usual when it comes to the whole Caribbean schools topic.
 
I was reading up on SMP and noticed the requirements are very low (30mcat, 3.0 gpa). Apparently a lot of the SMP schools has at least 50% of their students transferring to an MD school and 80% the next year, which i personally think is very high.

It made me wonder as to why anyone would apply to caribbean school when they can just get into an SMP program for 1 year and just transfer to an MD school.
I wondered the same thing for students going to DO school, why not just wait 1 year and go to an MD school instead?

Am i missing something there? 😕
What kind of silly question is this? Time and money! If I had a DO acceptance, there is no way I would spend years and thousands of dollars on a "50% chance" of getting into a MD school.
 
SGU's matriculant stats were 3.4/27. The rest of the Caribbean schools have lower matriculant stats. An SMP might compensate for a low gpa, but not a low MCAT.

This statistic is highly elevated by Canadians who cannot get in their own institutes that require a 3.8/33 on average. And since Canadians don't have DO schools of their own ( A good amount attend ours) they only have the option of going to SGU or Ross. So in reality a US student at SGU probably has far under that.

And lets be honest here. SMP's are great, but their entrance requirements are not cake. A 30 on SDN might sound like nothing, but ask most people and they're mystified about even getting a 28. So for many Carib students a SMP simply is not even a valid possibility.

Regarding DO, well bird in the hand man.
 
Last edited:
I was visiting my mother at a specialty hospital in Jacksonville, and pursued the wall of physicians.

Out of 12 of them, 7 of them came from either Mexican schools of medicine or the Caribbean.

Mind you, this place is affiliated with a the major hospital system in town.

Kind of castes a shadow of doubt on the hatred that SDN has for international medical schools.

Whats wrong with wanting parity with the number of doctors graduating in the US to the number of residency spots available? Its not like the system is obligated to give residency positons to IMGs. I admit, MD seems elitist with their numbers only game but thats when DO steps up and offers many folks a second chance as long as they work hard, which is something Caribbean schools try to skirt around, aka the easy/fast way out.
 
I was visiting my mother at a specialty hospital in Jacksonville, and pursued the wall of physicians.

Out of 12 of them, 7 of them came from either Mexican schools of medicine or the Caribbean.

Mind you, this place is affiliated with a the major hospital system in town.

Kind of castes a shadow of doubt on the hatred that SDN has for international medical schools.

20, heck even 10 years ago it was a whole different story. The reality is that in the coming years leading up to 2018-2020 all US-IMGs trying to obtain residencies will be competing for a dozen residencies left untouched by USMD and USDO students. And lets be honest, the AMA and AOA have pretty much teamed up this year with their merger to effectively push out as many IMGs as possible.
 
I was visiting my mother at a specialty hospital in Jacksonville, and perused the wall of physicians.

Out of 12 of them, 7 of them came from either Mexican schools of medicine or the Caribbean.

Mind you, this place is affiliated with a the major hospital system in town.

Kind of castes a shadow of doubt on the hatred that SDN has for international medical schools.

Wow, I can't believe someone didn't call me on that...

Y'all are slipping!
 
I was visiting my mother at a specialty hospital in Jacksonville, and pursued the wall of physicians.

Out of 12 of them, 7 of them came from either Mexican schools of medicine or the Caribbean.

Mind you, this place is affiliated with a the major hospital system in town.

Kind of castes a shadow of doubt on the hatred that SDN has for international medical schools.

Wow, I can't believe someone didn't call me on that...

Y'all are slipping!

I just got caught up on this thread and saw the minor WC error while reading it. I'm not much of a grammar nazi, but at least you noticed it. That's what matters.

20, heck even 10 years ago it was a whole different story. The reality is that in the coming years leading up to 2018-2020 all US-IMGs trying to obtain residencies will be competing for a dozen residencies left untouched by USMD and USDO students. And lets be honest, the AMA and AOA have pretty much teamed up this year with their merger to effectively push out as many IMGs as possible.

I just read an interesting article in JAMA about this topic.

Traverso G, McMahon GT. Residency training and international medical graduates. JAMA 2012;308(21):2193-4.

I'll summarize some of the points made:

-One of the most important statistical factors to consider is the fact that by 2015, the number of US medical graduates is expected to surpass the number of residency slots.

-The above expectation is based partly on the fact that there is a physician shortage, prompting US medical schools (allopathic and osteopathic) to increase enrollment.
-The authors assert that this may lead to enrolling less qualified students and thus may impact the quality of care.

-What role do IMGs play in the US?
-25% of physician population and 10-15% of residents, IMGs are disproportionately practicing in areas of the U.S. with high infant mortality, lower socioeconomic status, and higher non-white populations and rural areas. IMGs work more in the public sector and for longer hours. They represent more than a third of needed physicians in PCP-shortage areas. 10% of US hospitals are reportedly IMG-dependent. IMGs add diversity to physician workforce, and may improve patient-physician relationships between concordant ethnicities.

-Why do IMGs work in these areas?
-Better pay than in country of nationality, pathway to US citizenship for some if serving in medically underserved areas, visa waiver programs for those that stay in the US and practice in underserved areas.

-What problems do US citizens who attend medical school abroad face in the future?
-Since the number of IMGs practicing in the US is expected to decline, coupled with the rising enrollment of US medical schools, US citizens who attend medical school abroad (~50% in the Caribbean) may face difficulty in reentering the US. As it is, the number of residency positions in the US has not kept up with the increase in US enrollment. The decrease in funding of graduate medical programs may put further strain on the number of IMGs that are able to complete their residency in the US.

So there it is. Of note, the first author has a MB, BChir. The authors assert that a decline in IMGs may have drastic effects on patient care with respect to cultural and linguistic diversity, especially in underserved areas where they are disproportionately found. Furthermore, the authors seem to make a case for retention of pathway-to-citizenship programs and other related perks of practicing in the aforementioned US regions. At the same time, the authors state that with the ACA-induced increase in insurance coverage, the PCP need may become severe if IMGs are limited. US medical grads could be drawn to work in these sectors of medicine through incentives, etc. Thus, one can surmise that this could put further strain on the ability of IMGs to practice in the US (again, particularly the underserved areas).

Thoughts?
 
What kind of silly question is this? Time and money! If I had a DO acceptance, there is no way I would spend years and thousands of dollars on a "50% chance" of getting into a MD school.

I'm sure that its safe to say that 25% of the students In the SMP program aren't even dedicated. And 80% in the second year is a pretty good number if you ask me.

Another thing to note is that Students who do poorly in the SMP program will most likely not do well in any medical school ( Unless I'm mistaken).

grading policy of a Popular SMP program:

Grading for SMP students will remain unchanged: it is done in such a way that grades illustrate competence in medical school courses. This is achieved because the SMP student's grades are based on the medical school grading curve. At Georgetown, medical students are graded on a Honors, High Pass, Pass, Low Pass, Fail grading curve. Physiology students are graded based on the medical school scale. The following grade conversion chart illustrates this.
Grade on Graduate Transcript Interpretation
A Honors for medical students
(top 10 to 15% of med class)
A- or B+ High Pass for medical students
(next 10 to 15% of med class)
B or B- Pass for medical students
(majority of first year med class)
C Unsatisfactory performance
F Unsatisfactory performance
No credit given for grad course
 
Last edited:
I mean I think it's pretty obvious that some US MD students are elitist to the point where they judge and criticize Caribbean MD students and see themselves as "above" them. The only situation where I see them as "above" them is in terms of getting a residency. They are not necessarily "better" people or "better" future physicians. It's just arrogance and a sense of entitlement. It's widely recognized that the Caribbean schools are a last resort, but they also do give a second chance to many. And it's true that due to their less rigorous admissions process, there are more students there than in US MD schools that probably shouldn't be there, but whatever, the ones that shouldn't be there won't make it through. The one's that work hard there will have a better chance. I just don't understand why US students have to hate on these Caribbean students that actually do work against all odds to make it back to the US and become good doctors. I don't even know why I'm posting this, I'm probably going to take a ton of flak from SDN like usual when it comes to the whole Caribbean schools topic.

👍

It takes a lot of guts to say this and I respect that!
 
I'm sure that its safe to say that 25% of the students In the SMP program aren't even dedicated. And 80% in the second year is a pretty good number if you ask me.

Another thing to note is that Students who do poorly in the SMP program will most likely not do well in any medical school ( Unless I'm mistaken).

grading policy of a Popular SMP program:

I don't think you understood the point. Why would you spend a year trying to get into med school waste 50k, when you're already in a med school that will 95% of the time graduate you and place you in your residency of choice?
Likewise you want to waste another year or two getting in? I mean let's be honest here. This not to mention that 80% includes DO schools...

Likewise you're making an enormous assumption in saying that 1/3 of a class size is undedicated. And second point is debatable.

Point is you're ignoring the millions of barriers to SMPs and hailing them as being perfect. They simply aren't, and while they offer many a second chance, for many others they're not the best choice.
 
👍

It takes a lot of guts to say this and I respect that!

Except that's not why we say it. We say it because 200-300k in non-bankruptable educational loans is a very scary place to be in. Without your residency you will be worthless and the reality is that a student from a US MD or DO school will have first dibs on their residency of choice. IMGs get the scraps and there are less scraps every year.
 
You defer the dream by going to a SMP, when you could have gone to a carib far sooner and some kids just don't know the problems later down eh road.
 
I was reading up on SMP and noticed the requirements are very low (30mcat, 3.0 gpa). Apparently a lot of the SMP schools has at least 50% of their students transferring to an MD school and 80% the next year, which i personally think is very high.

It made me wonder as to why anyone would apply to caribbean school when they can just get into an SMP program for 1 year and just transfer to an MD school.
I wondered the same thing for students going to DO school, why not just wait 1 year and go to an MD school instead?

Am i missing something there? 😕

30 MCAT is not very low.
 
I think time and money are two important factors as to why people don't do SMPs. I think another factor is that a SMP is meant for bettering ones chances at medical school. It does not hold the same valve as a traditional masters in the working world. In other words, just by doing well at a SMP does not guarantee acceptance to a medical school. Thus time and money is lost, if that SMP does not have any job value. However, with a traditional masters it still has job value and one can progress to a PhD.

If one were to choose between applying to DO schools vs. a SMP to increase ones chances at an MD school (I know this forum is about applying SMP vs. carebbean but I just want to state this). The DO school will outweigh the SMP any day. Applying DO is less time wasted and getting in is a guarantee one will become a doctor.

I think this is probably the best way to look at it. Because at least if you don't get in MD/DO you could always do a PhD in something you enjoy.
 
I think this is probably the best way to look at it. Because at least if you don't get in MD/DO you could always do a PhD in something you enjoy.

Or that you're not ready to apply yet and should improve your ECs and retake courses you did poorly in. Retakes might not do much for MD chances, but may make a world of difference for DO chances.
 
Top