Why do surgical residencies have research in built?

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Raygun77

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Just curious. I can't think of any other residency that has research years in built, though many medicine residency graduates do pursue a research fellowship or whatever. This is especially ironic since physicians are anecdotally more 'research-minded'- could the surgical research years be trying to compensate for this?

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Just curious. I can't think of any other residency that has research years in built, though many medicine residency graduates do pursue a research fellowship or whatever. This is especially ironic since physicians are anecdotally more 'research-minded'- could the surgical research years be trying to compensate for this?

Just for the reason you said. Most medical specialties have research built into their fellowships. Surgical fellowships are almost all clinical. Furthermore, fellowships in general surgery are only recently becoming a "required" step in practice. Historically, you could graduate from a program and practice general surgery, meaning you could do vascular, thoracic and abdominal operations. Therefore, to get the research experience before you were on your own, you did it during residency. Our system is a holdover from that, and likely won't change, as you are unlikely to add research years to fellowship training.
 
Tradition, ego, inability/unwillingness to change.
 
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Just my humble opinion:

As compared to medicine fellowships, surgical fellowships are almost exclusively clinical. Surgical fellowships aren't limited to seeing consults and learning one or two procedures (cardiac caths, or endoscopy). There's a tremendous amount to learn in and out of the OR, and as a result there's no time to pursue research during fellowship.

The only real way to get surgical trainees to commit to research is by:

1) working them non-stop for 2-3 years
2) offering a 2-year period of 40-hour weeks
3) helping score the fellowship specialty and/or program of choice

As a result, we do research during our residency. I guess we could extend fellowships to 3-4 years...
 
I have wondered in the past as well why it is very uncommon (almost unheard of) for residents in ortho, urology, and ENT to have research built-in or for them to take time off to do research. Even for the most competitive fellowships, no one has dedicated time off for research (and those surgical fellowships usually do not have research built in like medicine fellowships do).
 
I have wondered in the past as well why it is very uncommon (almost unheard of) for residents in ortho, urology, and ENT to have research built-in or for them to take time off to do research.

Don't know about ortho or uro, but in ENT pretty much every program has 3-6 months of dedicated research time built in for the 5 year track. A lot of programs have expectations that you are working on at least one project a year and for you to present your data at the end of the year research symposium and try to publish something. Granted, that can be a crappy chart review if research isn't your shtick, but I've seen some pretty heavy retrospective/prospective/RCT stuff presented.
 
I had seen in another thread where the FRIEDA list was somewhat unreliable. Is there a better source to check whether or not a program has mandatory 1 or 2 years dedicated to research?
 
I had seen in another thread where the FRIEDA list was somewhat unreliable. Is there a better source to check whether or not a program has mandatory 1 or 2 years dedicated to research?
I found that most programs state it in their website. This forum frequently gets requests for "Where should I apply for residency?" and you won't get the answers you want, but if you make a specific request, like "What are some residencies in the Northeast/South/etc that offer/require 1-2 years of research in basic sciences?" then you could get the answers you want.
 
Don't know about ortho or uro, but in ENT pretty much every program has 3-6 months of dedicated research time built in for the 5 year track. A lot of programs have expectations that you are working on at least one project a year and for you to present your data at the end of the year research symposium and try to publish something. Granted, that can be a crappy chart review if research isn't your shtick, but I've seen some pretty heavy retrospective/prospective/RCT stuff presented.
3-6 months of research (coming out of clinical time, which doesn't extend your residency) < 2 years of research. Big, big difference. Also many general surgery residencies require ongoing research projects as well.
 
Caveat: the following is just my humble opinion and I could be wrong.

BUT. I think that a mandatory 2 years of research during general surgery residency is completely unnecessary. In an era when surgical leaders in general surgery are looking to streamline residency training, it makes no sense to require residents to do research.

I have seen firsthand several residents enter their "research years" with great reluctance, and view them at best as a "vacation" and at worst 2 years of punishment. Some residents thrive in this period of time, and publish well but most underperform. Some view this time as a period to start a family and "have a break".

From a faculty standpoint, having research residents has obvious benefits. You have residents that can do your research grunt work for you while you are doing cases and meeting your clinical production requirements. Having residents also allows you to publish papers at a rate that you would never be able to maintain on your own, and contributes to your career advancement.

Some arguments for resident research years are typically:

1. Allows residents to learn to critically analyze papers and interpret journal papers.
2. Allows residents to build their cv and help prepare them for competitive fellowship matches.
3. Helps lay the foundation for an academic career by learning how to write grants, and by building relationships/mentorships with important people in your field of interest.
4. Gives residents a break during residency.

I would counter these arguments by:

1. Residents can learn to critically analyze papers fairly easily. One does not need to take 1-3 years out of residency to do this. I learned to do this in medical school.

2. Residents can easily write papers while in residency. It requires a little extra work but can be easily done. With the 80 hour workweek and further work hour restrictions, there is no reason why residents should not be able to publish 2 or 3 papers a year at the minimum. I know several residents who managed to publish 25+ papers over their 5 year general surgery residency with no time out for research.

3. It's reasonable to expect to make important connections during 2 years of research. One may even lay the foundation for a future academic career by cementing important relationships during residency. However this is quite unnecessary in the modern era of academics. As far as your first academic job, where you trained is probably more important than if you did 2 years of research. Once you get your first academic job, then it's what you do from there, not what you did during general surgery residency. Also, with the possible exception of peds surgery, their are no fellowships for which general surgery research time is mandatory.

4. As for getting a break during residency... seriously? With the 56 hour intern rule, and the 80 hour workweek? I might buy the whole "it gives one a chance to live life during a grueling general surgery residency" argument if it was 1985. But when my intern regularly slips out after rounds to go to the gym, and when the term "post call" is now part of the everyday vocabulary, and when every resident is guaranteed 1 day in 7 free of clinical duties, is this really "grueling"? I think the the whole "gives you a break" argument is outdated and we should lay that to rest.

I would add that there is a huge opportunity cost associated with spending 2 years out of residency in someone's lab. These 2 years are 2 years that you will lose of peak earning years. The loss in revenue to the research resident runs in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Obviously I am against having mandatory research for general surgery residents. There is no good reason for residents to do it, although there are benefits for faculty members to have these residents.

I acknowledge that there are a few residents who are in the PhD track for whom research makes sense because they will have the extra degree and these folks are driven and from a career/interest point of view makes sense for them. But for the vast majority of general surgery residents, mandatory research is not beneficial.

Someone posted that other subspecialties do not do research. However many ent, ortho, and urology programs have up to 6 months of built in research in their residencies. These residents are also expected to publish, and they do.
 
Also, with the possible exception of peds surgery, their are no fellowships for which general surgery research time is mandatory.
Peds and surg onc.

Someone posted that other subspecialties do not do research. However many ent, ortho, and urology programs have up to 6 months of built in research in their residencies. These residents are also expected to publish, and they do.
Yes, they have 6 months of research BUILT-IN to their residency. It does not extend their residency. They still finish in 5 years. A lot of general surgery residents do research during clinical time and do 2 years in the lab.
 
A non-surgical resident here. Just wondering how common it is to be asked to cover call and/or night float as a general surgery resident during the research years.
 
It's an obvious benefit to the program to have dedicated full-time MD researchers with several years of surgical experience. Also, it really discourages non-academic minded people from choosing these programs, which is possibly a benefit to the program. Everyone says they want to do academics on interviews, but this really makes you put your money where your mouth is. If you were thinking private practice all the way, 2 years of research is truly wasted time.

Honestly, I think this trend makes gen surgery less appealing as a field. There is no logical reason why 2 years of research should be required to be a surgeon or to specialize as a surgeon.

I can speak to urology as far as research time. Most 6 year uro programs have at least 6 months of dedicated research time built in. 5 year programs have zero dedicated research time, as it is outlawed by the AUA. The trend in uro is to move toward the 5 year model, and more programs are converting to 5 year every year. Six year programs are finding it harder to compete for the best applicants. People just don't want to spend extra time in gen surg and in the lab, when it will likely have little impact on their work. Eventually, the same will probably happen for the 7 year gen surgery programs.
 
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A non-surgical resident here. Just wondering how common it is to be asked to cover call and/or night float as a general surgery resident during the research years.
Lab residents at my program took one call a week maximum (it had been more than that in my earlier years, when they structured services differently and they got screwed when on-service residents took vacations and were out of the call pool). It was a condition of receiving their stipends (paid at PGY 3 level) for the year. I do not think my program was typical, however.
 
A non-surgical resident here. Just wondering how common it is to be asked to cover call and/or night float as a general surgery resident during the research years.

Of the 17 programs I interviewed at, only one I can recall that REQUIRED call or clinical responsibility during the research time. All of the other programs either ENCOURAGED taking call (paid at the moonlighting rate ~$100/hr), let you moonlight however you wanted (call in the hospital, at a SNF, etc), or somewhat discouraged moonlighting. The majority of the programs were in the middle though.
 
A non-surgical resident here. Just wondering how common it is to be asked to cover call and/or night float as a general surgery resident during the research years.

Our research residents regularly take call. However, our program does research a little different than most others - we do 4-month blocks in years 2, 3, and 4. 2s and 3s will typically take either homecall for the service that covers cases at three of the smaller (and typically private patient population) hospitals in town or regular in-house critical care call. The 4s take regular senior call most of the time.
 
I think he meant 16-hour intern rule.

😴

Yes a reference to the 16 hour workday making overnight call for interns a thing of the past. (Unless of course there is a night float which is not the same as working all day, all night, and then all day again).
 
Of the 17 programs I interviewed at, only one I can recall that REQUIRED call or clinical responsibility during the research time. All of the other programs either ENCOURAGED taking call (paid at the moonlighting rate ~$100/hr), let you moonlight however you wanted (call in the hospital, at a SNF, etc), or somewhat discouraged moonlighting. The majority of the programs were in the middle though.

Our research residents regularly take call. However, our program does research a little different than most others - we do 4-month blocks in years 2, 3, and 4. 2s and 3s will typically take either homecall for the service that covers cases at three of the smaller (and typically private patient population) hospitals in town or regular in-house critical care call. The 4s take regular senior call most of the time.
I interviewed at a few places that required call. That pushed them lower on my list. Harder to focus on your research if you are taking call and also less time to moonlight. Time in the lab is no good if you're not productive. I also interviewed at a handful of places that did not allow moonlighting. They were pushed lower as well.
 
I interviewed at a few places that required call. That pushed them lower on my list. Harder to focus on your research if you are taking call and also less time to moonlight. Time in the lab is no good if you're not productive. I also interviewed at a handful of places that did not allow moonlighting. They were pushed lower as well.

Did you match at a place that allows you to do research and moonlighting without requiring you to take call? Was this a main determinant for your rank list order?
 
Did you match at a place that allows you to do research and moonlighting without requiring you to take call? Was this a main determinant for your rank list order?
It was pretty low on the list of priorities for making my rank list, but it was something I made a note of. Fortunately all the programs that didn't allow you to moonlight or forced you to take call while in the lab were already low for other reasons, and I was fortunate to end up at my top choice so I got the best (IMHO of course) combination of everything (my main determinants were academic reputation and strength of clinical training...which didn't always correlate I found, but that's a different discussion). My program allows you to moonlight and doesn't force you to take call while in the lab. You can also take call at outside institutions which is something I didn't list above: some places only allow you to take call/moonlight at your home institution or affiliated hospitals.
 
I interviewed at a few places that required call. That pushed them lower on my list. Harder to focus on your research if you are taking call and also less time to moonlight. Time in the lab is no good if you're not productive. I also interviewed at a handful of places that did not allow moonlighting. They were pushed lower as well.

Fair enough. In my case, research here is pretty much entirely clinical and not bench. This was my preference anyway. I was not interested in doing a year or two years of straight basic science research. I liked the way research is incorporated here because while I know research is good for me to do, I have no desire to be a true academic surgeon. So a place that really wanted me to "focus" on my research was pushed lower on my list.

Different strokes for different folks. 🙂
 
My program allows you to moonlight and doesn't force you to take call while in the lab. You can also take call at outside institutions which is something I didn't list above: some places only allow you to take call/moonlight at your home institution or affiliated hospitals.

That's amazing. I didn't run into many programs that allowed this when I interviewed.

We have to take call if we do research at our home institution because the surgery department pays our salary (even if our lab is part of another department within the university). If we find a funded spot elsewhere, we are exempt from call.

It would be nice to make a double salary...
 
It would be nice to make a double salary...
You mean surgery dept salary + moonlighting? Yeah, it'll be nice. One resident (at a different place I interviewed that has the same set-up) said, yeah, everyone pretty much buys a Mercedes or BMW when they go into the lab.
 
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