Why does it matter what program I go to?

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Shredder

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I have no interest in academics or research. I can grit my teeth and get through a few years of bad location if necessary during residency years. What is the motivation for going to top programs vs bottom ones? To me the only thing that matters is financial considerations and return on investment--do these come into play?

I did some research as an undergrad and don't want to do anymore, ever.
 
I have no interest in academics or research. I can grit my teeth and get through a few years of bad location if necessary during residency years. What is the motivation for going to top programs vs bottom ones? To me the only thing that matters is financial considerations and return on investment--do these come into play?

I did some research as an undergrad and don't want to do anymore, ever.

You're asking a good question, though I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be shocked that there are people who actually (gasp) don't care whether their program is "top" or not. You're with the rest of the world who aren't in medicine. Look for the practical things that other people usually look for in a workplace:

1) Go for a hospital that is MAKING money, not losing money. Your ancillary support staff will be that much better for it and it will save your intern's life a lot of headache. Top academic residencies are usually at money-making hospitals, but there are plenty of community-based residencies also at hospitals that make a lot of money. If you interview in a range of places, you will usually be able to tell (often just by the look of the facilities and by the existence of building plans for expansion) which hospitals are making money, and which ones aren't.

2) Go to a region where you are willing to live. And that does not have to be Manhattan, Boston, San Francisco or other competitive locations. You can enjoy life in the middle of nowhere -- that's all about how you approach life.

3) Go to a program that is NOT on probation. For obvious reasons. If you can.

The rest, as you say, doesn't really matter. "Average" is more than okay (unless your ego won't tolerate it), and good for you for enjoying the freedom of being average.

But after you start your residency, you'll probably find that the little niggles of workplace culture do matter. For example, 3/4 of the way through my intern year at an "average" community hospital, I found I was getting sick of going to work with a group of people who go to work, complain about hating working, and look forward to going home at the end of the day. It's a long day of waiting to go home when you arrive and start waiting at 7am, only to go home just before 6pm. I wanted to say, "Uhhh, don't you want to show even a LITTLE bit of enthusiasm for being here?"

So I'm excited to be moving on to a residency at a place where people are actually really interested in the subject, and not just interested in going home -- but that is only marginally related to the reputation of a program, and you can find better attitudes in average places too.
 
Go to a place with free food, free parking, and low crime. Everything else is a wash. Ok, maybe you don't want probation, but for the most part, you get out of it what you put into it, not what they force you to.
 
I have no interest in academics or research. I can grit my teeth and get through a few years of bad location if necessary during residency years. What is the motivation for going to top programs vs bottom ones? To me the only thing that matters is financial considerations and return on investment--do these come into play?

I did some research as an undergrad and don't want to do anymore, ever.



if you care about making money, then you should go to a top residency. why? in many fields, the 'best' jobs are taken up by graduates from top-tier residency programs. now, 'best' may mean desirable location, but it also means top paying as well. this also applies to fellowships...the better IM program you go to, the more fellowships interviews you will get...you rarely see IM residents from community hospitals match at fellowship programs other than their own...where as IM residents from penn or harvard have the pick of the litter.

lemme ask you this: would someone in kansas rather higher someone from a top 10 program or bottom 10 program? they are 'paying' for the name of the program, as they will use this as marketing, to attract not only patients, but other employees.
 
just to play devil's advocate, have you ever picked a doctor based on where they trained? i think the people in kansas would be inclined to hire someone from the midwest because they'd understand the people better than someone from so cal or boston.

i would however agree that for fellowship, going to a solid residency is probably helpful.

if you care about making money, then you should go to a top residency. why? in many fields, the 'best' jobs are taken up by graduates from top-tier residency programs. now, 'best' may mean desirable location, but it also means top paying as well. this also applies to fellowships...the better IM program you go to, the more fellowships interviews you will get...you rarely see IM residents from community hospitals match at fellowship programs other than their own...where as IM residents from penn or harvard have the pick of the litter.

lemme ask you this: would someone in kansas rather higher someone from a top 10 program or bottom 10 program? they are 'paying' for the name of the program, as they will use this as marketing, to attract not only patients, but other employees.
 
if you care about making money, then you should go to a top residency. why? in many fields, the 'best' jobs are taken up by graduates from top-tier residency programs. now, 'best' may mean desirable location, but it also means top paying as well. this also applies to fellowships...the better IM program you go to, the more fellowships interviews you will get...you rarely see IM residents from community hospitals match at fellowship programs other than their own...where as IM residents from penn or harvard have the pick of the litter.

lemme ask you this: would someone in kansas rather higher someone from a top 10 program or bottom 10 program? they are 'paying' for the name of the program, as they will use this as marketing, to attract not only patients, but other employees.

I'm not sure this is true. And prestigious positions don't always pay the most because, just as residents will suck it up and suffer abuse to train at prestigious programs, attendings will sacrifice a little pay for the prestige of working their too.

I am at a decent but unknown program and our graduates do very well when it comes to finding jobs, at least from my informal survey of graduating seniors who I know.

I was at a famous hospital for my intern year, a place which we will call "Earl" to avoid stirring up the prestige hornets, and I hated it. My current program is a lot more "livable," that is, I get more time off, work fewer hours on the same rotations (I repeated intern year), and generally am treated a whole lot better.

These things are important. I understand that EM residents at "Earl" work 22 12-hour shifts per 28-day block. This is a lot for EM and will wear you out quickly. A nine-to-nine shift, for example, feels like you are doing nothing but working. At my program we work 14 12-hour shifts which is more pleasant and doesn't consume your life the way other residency programs do. It also gives you more time to moonlight.
 
Yeah, I've basically begun to question the tangible value of prestige.

Those are good practical considerations jennyboo, thanks
 
Yeah, I've basically begun to question the tangible value of prestige.

Prestige is a good thing, of course, if it is prestige that you have earned through your own hard work and good deeds. The problem, however, is that for many people who are trying to attain it, "prestige" is apparently synonymous with credentials. If one's plan is to skate by on "prestige" that is not really earned as much as it is an attempt to glom onto someone else's or an institution's prestige, than it's vastly less important. The vast majority of people with any clout or importance will take a competent, smart, hard working person from State U over a ******* elitist from Ivy League State.
 
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