why dont you all go to nursing school instead?

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Because I'm the decider



and I want to have more responsibilities, get paid more, and do stuff that nurses can't do (like maybe perform surgery).
 
Why are people so bent out of shape about this? Nobody is going to have these people performing CABGs any time soon. And let's be honest, family practice isn't exactly rocket science. Even the MDs refer, refer, refer the instant anything looks complex...
 
As long as DNPs and other non-physicians don't go around calling themselves "Dr. Jones" I'm cool with it. The average person is far too dumb to know/understand/ask the difference.
 
If you became a DNP that would limit you to other specialties like surgery or radiology. These are fields that only doctors or PAs could pursue.

Besides I wouldn't be able to tell anyone with a straight face that I was a nurse. Yet alone live with myself as being a nurse...

But if you don't mind the limitations and the social embarrasment then by all means go for it! :laugh:
 
And I forgot to add this whole "doctor" business is nonsense.

Physical therapists are now DPTs "doctors" of physical therapy.
pharmacists are Pharm Ds.
There are also OTDs. "Doctor" of occupational therapy.
Now we have DNP.


Whats next?? doctor of EMT or a doctor of respiratory thearpy.

I'm really sick of this crap.
 
bnleong said:
If you became a DNP that would limit you to other specialties like surgery or radiology. These are fields that only doctors or PAs could pursue.

Besides I wouldn't be able to tell anyone with a straight face that I was a nurse. Yet alone live with myself as being a nurse...

But if you don't mind the limitations and the social embarrasment then by all means go for it! :laugh:
Click to expand...

How condescending of you. Nurses are very valuable and play a very large role in our health care system. It's pretty poor form to insist you couldn't live with yourself as a lowly nurse. Shove your bloated ego aside.
 
bnleong said:
And I forgot to add this whole "doctor" business is nonsense.

Physical therapists are now DPTs "doctors" of physical therapy.
pharmacists are Pharm Ds.
There are also OTDs. "Doctor" of occupational therapy.
Now we have DNP.


Whats next?? doctor of EMT or a doctor of respiratory thearpy.

I'm really sick of this crap.
Click to expand...

RTs can already get PhD in Health Science.

These degrees are pretty much cash cows. They create these extended degrees for more education even though the law still limits their practice rights.
 
bnleong said:
And I forgot to add this whole "doctor" business is nonsense.

Physical therapists are now DPTs "doctors" of physical therapy.
pharmacists are Pharm Ds.
There are also OTDs. "Doctor" of occupational therapy.
Now we have DNP.


Whats next?? doctor of EMT or a doctor of respiratory thearpy.

I'm really sick of this crap.
Click to expand...

Never heard of the OTD's before, sounds like some narcotic though. As for DNP, this is hte first time I've heard of the "Doctor" added to NP. This reminds me of the thread a little while ago about someone unsure of how to address a PA. In fact, I recall that one person shared a story of how the PA introduced himself as Dr. Yadayada. Ridiculous.
 
CRB 717 said:
How condescending of you. Nurses are very necessary and play a very large role in our health care system. It's pretty poor form to insist you couldn't live with yourself as a lowly nurse. Shove your bloated ego aside.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Nurses have an important job and they are needed.

I hate people who judge you based on what job you have, but that is how society is.
 
bnleong said:
And I forgot to add this whole "doctor" business is nonsense.

Physical therapists are now DPTs "doctors" of physical therapy.
pharmacists are Pharm Ds.
There are also OTDs. "Doctor" of occupational therapy.
Now we have DNP.


Whats next?? doctor of EMT or a doctor of respiratory thearpy.

I'm really sick of this crap.
Click to expand...

The audacity of these people! 🙄
 
CRB 717 said:
How condescending of you. Nurses are very necessary and play a very large role in our health care system. It's pretty poor form to insist you couldn't live with yourself as a lowly nurse. Shove your bloated ego aside.
Click to expand...

Its not about ego at all. I understand the importance of nurses.
Its just how the job has become feminized.

Yea if I was girl I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Its like saying I'm going to become a ballerina. I just wouldn't/ can't do it.
 
I hear male nurses get paid more than female nurses, any truth to this?
 
Because there is more fluff in nursing school than I can stomach. Otherwise, I would do it. And call myself Dr. Nurse Gonj. Mr. Average Joe has no idea.
 
IHeartNerds said:
Why are people so bent out of shape about this? Nobody is going to have these people performing CABGs any time soon. And let's be honest, family practice isn't exactly rocket science. Even the MDs refer, refer, refer the instant anything looks complex...
Click to expand...

That's not out of a lack of capability.
 
LastPolarBear said:
I hear male nurses get paid more than female nurses, any truth to this?
Click to expand...

Men who work in female-stereotyped professions are likely to experience a "glass escalator", advancing more quickly and making more money than women in the field (as opposed to the "glass ceiling" that women find in male-stereotyped professions).
 
It is impressive how they are able to barge in on the medical profession and practice medicine on their terms. pwnt.
 
CRB 717 said:
How condescending of you. Nurses are very valuable and play a very large role in our health care system. It's pretty poor form to insist you couldn't live with yourself as a lowly nurse. Shove your bloated ego aside.
Click to expand...


he has a right to his/her opinion
 
sirius08 said:
Men who work in female-stereotyped professions are likely to experience a "glass escalator", advancing more quickly and making more money than women in the field (as opposed to the "glass ceiling" that women find in male-stereotyped professions).
Click to expand...

not really. Most of the nurses with desks and offices are WOMEN
 
maceo said:
not really. Most of the nurses with desks and offices are WOMEN
Click to expand...

Mine was a general point about men working in female-stereotyped occupations. Many studies support the idea of a glass escalator.
 
CRB 717 said:
what's your point? everyone on here has an opinion, am I supposed to accept them all in silence?
Click to expand...

if you feel everyone is entitled to their opinion, i think you overacted to his comment.
 
sirius08 said:
Mine was a general point about men working in female-stereotyped occupations. Many studies support the idea of a glass escalator.
Click to expand...


I dont know nothing bout no escalator. i wish men were in charge of nursing floors. all i know is there are a lot of bitchy ass female nurses as head nurses.
 
LastPolarBear said:
I hear male nurses get paid more than female nurses, any truth to this?
Click to expand...

Probably to same extent that maternity leave and greater likelihood of being the parent who stays home with children affects women in other professions.
 
maceo said:
I dont know nothing bout no escalator. i wish men were in charge of nursing floors. all i know is there are a lot of bitchy ass female nurses as head nurses.
Click to expand...

LOL. Come on, there's gotta be better ways to relax than by trolling around on premed web sites.
 
WTF. Make the nurses pass all the USMLE step 1 +2 +3 and Family physician board.

Strongly disagree with nurses practicing independently.
 
Midlevels trying to practice independently is such a huge problem. People are disgusting, greedy bastards. Everyone feels entitled to things, but NO one wants to put in the work. Go to a hospital and tell me how many x therapists, Jane Doe, RN , and techs you see walking around in white coats, bitching on their break about how they are just as capable as an MD/DO without medical school, clinicals, a residency, and ANY of the steps required to get there in the first place. I also don't think the DNP exists yet, but of course they are fighting for it.

The only thing that can be done now is to sit back, and watch the lawsuits fly off the handle and care plummet even more. Hopefully when the insurance companies realize they can get these people ... it will start backing down. I also think a business smart doc could use midlevels in a multiple practice situation. IE open 3-4 PC/Urgent care offices, stuff them with PA-C or NPs or whatever the hell else, and just manage the practices. It's disgusting though.
 
I seriously considered becoming an NP instead. If for some reason I can't get into med school after many tries, I probably will. Mostly I want to be more independent so I can practice in rural areas and perform basic surgeries if no one else is around to do it.
 
sarahg said:
Yes, how dare any field other than medicine allow its practitioners to advance beyond the master's level! 😛
Click to expand...

This isnt about stopping people from getting higher education. Its about stopping a bs degree that was created to allow nurses to encroach and eventually invade medicine.

http://fpb.case.edu/DNP/curriculum.shtm
Here is a DNP curriculum tell me how these improve patient care.

Alot of these programs are also online, with students doing very little clinical work.

binko said:
I seriously considered becoming an NP instead. If for some reason I can't get into med school after many tries, I probably will. Mostly I want to be more independent so I can practice in rural areas and perform basic surgeries if no one else is around to do it.
Click to expand...

Performing surgery?!?!? are you kidding me?

Would you really want someone who never went to medical school to perform a surgery on you?

I want some who had to work their ass off for 4 year in college, then 4 years in medschool and then 3-7 years in residency and passed 3 steps to perform my surgeries.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Midlevels trying to practice independently is such a huge problem. People are disgusting, greedy bastards. Everyone feels entitled to things, but NO one wants to put in the work. Go to a hospital and tell me how many x therapists, Jane Doe, RN , and techs you see walking around in white coats, bitching on their break about how they are just as capable as an MD/DO without medical school, clinicals, a residency, and ANY of the steps required to get there in the first place. I also don't think the DNP exists yet, but of course they are fighting for it.

The only thing that can be done now is to sit back, and watch the lawsuits fly off the handle and care plummet even more. Hopefully when the insurance companies realize they can get these people ... it will start backing down. I also think a business smart doc could use midlevels in a multiple practice situation. IE open 3-4 PC/Urgent care offices, stuff them with PA-C or NPs or whatever the hell else, and just manage the practices. It's disgusting though.
Click to expand...

👍

DNP's do exist, they are practicing already.

Hire PA's in the future. They wont try to steal your job and they are more knowledgeable.
 
niranjan162 said:
Performing surgery?!?!? are you kidding me?

Would you really want someone who never went to medical school to perform a surgery on you?

I want some who had to work their ass off for 4 year in college, then 4 years in medschool and then 3-7 years in residency and passed 3 steps to perform my surgeries.
Click to expand...




I assume he/she meant things like shave biopsies and small excisions. Hell, I had already done several before I ever started medical school. They're not rocket science.
 
rogerwilco said:
I assume he/she meant things like shave biopsies and small excisions. Hell, I had already done several before I ever started medical school. They're not rocket science.
Click to expand...

in what capacity did you do these?
 
holy crap. if i didn't have a conscience (or an aversion to nursing school or the desire to learn the ins and outs of medicine) i would so do this to practice medicine. it's cheaper, shorter, and easier. 3 credits over 6 days. how awesome is that!



http://fpb.case.edu/DNP/curriculum.shtm

FPB has a unique approach to "distance" learning. All Post-Master's DNP courses are given as intensive classes, with a 3-credit hour class given over a six-day period. Intensive sessions are given three times a year (January, May, and August) for at least two weeks. Papers and projects are due in the semester following the intensive session. Check the intensive course schedule.
Click to expand...

NUND 450
Applied Statistics
3 cr
NUND 504
Nursing Theory
3 cr
NUND 506
Leadership in Organizations & Systems
4 cr
NUND 508
Health Policy Development & Implementation
3 cr
NUND 530
Research Principles & Methods
3 cr
NUND 531
Approach to Practice Focused Res
3 cr
NUND 610
Translating Evidence into Nursing Practice
3 cr
NUND 611
Practicum
2 cr
NUND 619
Proposal Development
2 cr
NUND 620
Scholarly Project
3 cr
EDUCATIONAL LEADERSHIP TRACK

NUND 509
Curriculum and Instruction
3 cr
NUND 609
Theoretical Foundations of Testing & Evaluation
2 cr
PRACTICE LEADERSHIP TRACK

NUND 507
Management for Advance Practice
3 cr
NUND 607
Advanced Leadership & Management
2 cr
Click to expand...
 
gonj said:
holy crap. if i didn't have a conscience (or an aversion to nursing school or the desire to learn the ins and outs of medicine) i would so do this to practice medicine. it's cheaper, shorter, and easier. 3 credits over 6 days. how awesome is that!
Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned, this amounts to diploma millery.
 
I believe this is an excerpt from the pearson report, a nursing journal, pretty shocking...

Overall national occurrence
ratios, obtained by dividing the
total number of each group of
providers by the total number of
accumulated malpractice and
adverse actions in the NPDB
against that group of providers,
were 1 in 173 for NPs, 1 in 4 for
DOs, and 1 in 4 for MDs. Overall
national occurrence ratios, obtained
by dividing the total number
of each group of providers by
the total number of accumulated
adverse action reports, civil judgments,
and criminal conviction
reports in the HIPDB against that
group of providers, were 1 in 226
for NPs, 1 in 13 for DOs, and 1 in
23 for MDs.
States with the “worst ratios,”
meaning the highest rate of occurrences
for each professional group,
are listed here:
• Worst ratio for NPs in the
NPDB reports: 1:32 (Oregon)
• Worst ratio for DOs in the
NPDB reports: 1:2, (Louisiana,
Michigan, New Mexico, Pennsylvania,
and Wyoming)
• Worst ratio for MDs in the
NPDB reports: 1:2 (West Virginia)
• Worst ratio for NPs in the
HIPDB reports, 1:11 (Alabama)
• Worst ratio for DOs in the
HIPDB reports: 1:4 (North Dakota
and Oklahoma)
• Worst ratio for MDs in the
HIPDB reports: 1:6 (Ohio)
A closer look at two states,
Florida and Georgia—both of
which have limited NPs’ autonomy
more than many other states—is
elucidating. Florida’s DOs and
MDs, compared with NPs, are 25
times more likely to err professionally
and 7-14 times more likely
to commit an adverse action or
receive a civil judgment or criminal
conviction. Georgia physicians are
61 times more likely to commit a
malpractice error than NPs.
Comparing the number of adverse
actions, civil judgments, or criminal
convictions between physicians
and NPs is mathematically impossible
because 0 NPs have been
reported over the past 18 years.
Recommended Actions for NPs
1. NPs must use these malpractice
and malfeasance ratios and figures
to show legislators that the
rationale for physician supervision
over NPs is unfounded.
2. NPs have been providing safe, top-notch primary care for
decades. As FactCheck.org has
explained, humans tend to cling to
previously held beliefs and reject or
ignore new ideas offered by a new
person. This propensity undoubtedly
explains, at least in part, why
healthcare policy analysts sometimes
exclude NPs from serious discussions
about healthcare reform
and problems related to the lack of
primary care providers. NPs must
remind all policymakers of their
value in helping solve the nation’s
healthcare crisis. As President
Obama persuasively articulated,
“Yes We Can!”
3. NPs must continue to strive
to remove statutory restrictions that
prohibit NPs with earned doctorates
from being addressed as “doctor.”
Many states have no requirement
that doctorally-prepared NPs declare
or clarify that they are NPs, and I
also commend those states that have
legislatively allowed qualified NPs
to be addressed as “doctor” in the
clinical setting as long as these doctorally-
prepared NPs clarify that
they are NPs. My concern centers
on the eight states—Arkansas,
Connecticut, Georgia, Maine,
Mississippi, Ohio, Oklahoma, and
Oregon—that have statutory restrictions
against doctorally-educated
NPs being addressed appropriately
as “Doctor NP.” Kudos to Iowa’s NPs
and legislature, who removed this
legislative restraint in 2008.

​
Click to expand...
 
Vadd0 said:
Why? Unless I am missing something, an attorney would be more inclined to pursue charges of malpractice against physicians than nurses, especially if it is over a relatively minor issue. That said, I am sure many NP have better bedside manner than physicians which would decrease the likelihood of charges being filed.
Click to expand...


Well they are using the data to say that MD/DOs are involved in more lawsuits, i.e. therefore since NP's are involved in less lawsuits they are safer.

But you pointed out the logic, why would a lawyer go after an NP when they can go after a physician.

Then there's the issue of being addressed as "doctor NP", confusing to patients, and basically just for the NP's ego, but also a good way of making baby steps to usurp the role of the physician.

NP's do have better bedside, or at least more time to spend with patients, but that does that really mean they should practice in place of a physician?
 
niranjan162 said:
Performing surgery?!?!? are you kidding me?

Would you really want someone who never went to medical school to perform a surgery on you?

I want some who had to work their ass off for 4 year in college, then 4 years in medschool and then 3-7 years in residency and passed 3 steps to perform my surgeries.
Click to expand...

Uh, I don't plan on performing those surgeries just yet. I was planning on waiting until I'm at least *in* medical school. 😉

I think you misread my post. My point was that I wanted to be an NP *except* that I wouldn't be able to perform surgeries. Hence putting myself through the tribulation that is premed/med school/etc.
 
maceo said:
http://www.forbes.com/2007/11/27/nurses-doctors-practice-oped-cx_mom_1128nurses.html


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120710036831882059.html
Click to expand...


Career in nursing yields higher Return of Interest (ROI) than career in medicine. Period.

Compare hypothetical physician and nursing track.

Year 0: high school graduation:

Future nurse enrolls in nursing school.
Future physician enrolls in college.

Year 3.
Nurse graduates.
Future physicians begins study for MCAT, while racking up college debt.

Year 4.
Nurse has been working for a year now, gaining valuable experience and increasing his/her market value. She's 1/3 finished paying off her educational loans.
Physician gets accepted to medschool, assuming all goes well. By now, he owes tens of thousands of dollars in educational debt, and the interest is ticking.

Year 5.
Nurse is enjoying her early twenties. He/she keeps working, and starts to think about graduate programs like CRNAs. Her working hours and salary is fiercely protected by powerful union. As a US trained nurse with excellent English, she/he is HOT commodity on job market, which is great anyway. He/she is debt-free by now
Physician starts year one of medschool. Interest on his college loans is ticking away, and each year he gets hit for another 40-50K.

Year 6.
Nurse enrolls in graduate program. The workload and pricetag is reasonable.
Physician spends every waking hour studying and worrying about his/her grades.

Year 7-8.
Nurse graduates from graduate program and lands 170K job.
Assuming everything went well, physician graduates from medical school, after having accumulated additional 200K+ loans on the top of his college loans which were accumulating interest the whole time.

Year 9-12.
Nurse keeps working 40-50 hours per week, saving substantial amounts of money. Every minute of overtime she's paid extra.
Physician starts residency, working 80-100 hours per week. He's living in ****ty apartment and driving 10 year old civic, but it doesn't matter because he's at the hospital all the time anyway.

Year 13.
Nurse is living la vida loca. His/her net worth is approaching 500K.
Physician is studying for the boards and applying for fellowship.

Year 14.
Nurse is buying summer house.
Physician is looking for a job.

Year 15.
Nurse's net worth is 700K.
Physician landed 200K job. He owes 250K in debt, and monthly rate is over 1K.

Year 17.
Nurse got a managerial position. He/she is the boss now, calling shots and firing people.
The group that the physician joined decided not to make him partner, to fire him and to hire a fresh out-of-fellowship graduate.

Year 20.
Nursing unions negotiated early increase nurse's salary of 5% over the inflation rate.
Physician's Medicare reimbursement rate have been the same for past 10 years. To makes ends meet, he's working 70 hours per week.


Year 30.
Nurse is thinking about retirement from clinical duties and focusing on management.
Physician is halfway done with educational debt.

Year 35.
Nurse works half-time at a managerial position, making 150K, all negotiated by the union.
Federal government sets up single payor system, and salaries all doctors at 150K. It's illegal to accept payments from private insurers or patients.
 
DNPs are the ideal candidates to fill the primary-care void and deliver a new, more comprehensive brand of care that starts with but goes well beyond conventional medical practice. In addition to expert diagnosis and treatment, DNP training places an emphasis on preventive care, risk reduction and promoting good health practices. These clinicians are peerless prevention specialists and coordinators of complex care. In other words, as a patient, you get the medical knowledge of a physician, with the added skills of a nursing professional.
Truly comprehensive care requires both medical and nursing skills, and nurses with a clinical doctorate have that complement of abilities. Skilled at identifying nuanced changes of condition, and intervening early in a patient's illness, these clinicians are also expert at utilizing community and family resources, and incorporating patient values into a family-centered model of care.
Click to expand...
When did Ann Coulter get into the nurse vs. physician debate?
 
I, for one, am utterly shocked to see Nilf make a sensationalist Chicken Little-like post on SDN about medicine.

So out of character.

🙄
 
"ah man"....."nurse bobby*, mr. smith* just crapped himself again and I'm not cleaning it up. please do it now."

thats why I'm not becoming a nurse

*names have been changed
 
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