why dont you all go to nursing school instead?

[besmart]

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The other thing you folks have to realize is that there is a tremendous amount of "Degree Inflation" out there. Any idiot can get a Masters nowadays and doctorates are not that hard to come by. The fact that anybody has a "Masters" in anything does not impress me in the slightest. Universities are mostly now nothing but diploma mills and federal student aid farms where anybody who qualifies for student loans will be fed into the pipeline to emerge at the other end with as much money squeezed out of them as possible. If you think it is otherwise you are sadly deluded.

Just like most of medicine is absolutely wasted, most of higher education is a joke. The price keeps going up because there is so much federal money available to pay for it and suckers keep lining up to waste four or five years of their lives for easy, meaningless degrees that give them something to put on their resume when they apply for a job at Starbucks.

Higher education as it is structured in the United States is one of the biggest scams in history.

Yes daddy. We know any mojo on the street these days can get a master's degree. You think we don't know about grade inflation? I bitched left and right about all of these useless classes I had to take in college.

 

[starfishprime]

Any idiot can get a Masters nowadays and doctorates are not that hard to come by. The fact that anybody has a "Masters" in anything does not impress me in the slightest.

So, you're saying there was a time when a Masters degree in History was actually meaningful? I'm pretty sure employers don't particularly respect them now.

On the other hand, to get a Masters degree in say, Chemistry, Physics, or Engineering actually takes above average smarts. Doctorates, doubly so.

While English grad students might sit around in their apartments all day reading Chaucer when the mood strikes, real (hard science) PhD candidates spend 10 hour days in the lab, 6 days a week. That's not meaningless, in any sense.

 

[highvoltage]

Higher education as it is structured in the United States is one of the biggest scams in history.

Not if you get a humanities degree from a well respected small college. I guarantee if you were in one of those programs you would be saying, "No MAS! NO MAS! NO MAS!! BUt i agree with you for the most part with undergrad majors like business or communications that sort of thing. and of course the majors that prepare you for a career like allied health, nursing. thats not education that is job training.

 

[highvoltage]

So, you're saying there was a time when a Masters degree in History was actually meaningful? I'm pretty sure employers don't particularly respect them now.

On the other hand, to get a Masters degree in say, Chemistry, Physics, or Engineering actually takes above average smarts. Doctorates, doubly so.

While English grad students might sit around in their apartments all day reading Chaucer when the mood strikes, real (hard science) PhD candidates spend 10 hour days in the lab, 6 days a week. That's not meaningless, in any sense.

you are a snob because you are a chemistry major.

 

[tennisball80]

you are a snob because you are a chemistry major.

The best argument I have seen on SDN.

 

[melanoleuca]

Not if you get a humanities degree from a well respected small college. I guarantee if you were in one of those programs you would be saying, "No MAS! NO MAS! NO MAS!! BUt i agree with you for the most part with undergrad majors like business or communications that sort of thing. and of course the majors that prepare you for a career like allied health, nursing. thats not education that is job training.

I agree with you. Obviously there are still rigorous degrees in almost every field of study but, as you imply, the majority of people in college are wasting their time and money pursuing a shoddy and meaningless education. The point of most universities is to keep the warm bodies packed into the classrooms and the federal money flowing in.

On another note, the reason college is so expensive is because it is being paid for by a third party and there is, therefore, no restraint or real market forces dictating cost. Generally speaking, since the government will lend students almost whatever it takes to attend most universities, there is no down-side to increasing tuition to cover an increasing amount of bureaucracy and fluff, all of it providing lucrative jobs to the nations educrats. There are also, at most universities, no real entrance standards the necessity to keep the meat moving precluding any real interest in qualifications...which is the main reason why higher education is a joke, that is, that the curriculum in many majors is dumbed down to accomodate a less intelligent raw material.

A bachelor's degree is the new High School Diploma, by the way. On the other hand I bet that college-bound high school seniors in the 1950s were much better educated at high school graduation than most college students are at their college graduation today. I graded papers as a graduate student and some of the college sophomores whose papers I graded were functionally illiterate. When I was in high school we lost a letter grade for spelling mistakes in our term papers.

 

[melanoleuca]

So, you're saying there was a time when a Masters degree in History was actually meaningful? I'm pretty sure employers don't particularly respect them now.

On the other hand, to get a Masters degree in say, Chemistry, Physics, or Engineering actually takes above average smarts. Doctorates, doubly so.

While English grad students might sit around in their apartments all day reading Chaucer when the mood strikes, real (hard science) PhD candidates spend 10 hour days in the lab, 6 days a week. That's not meaningless, in any sense.

Unfortunately, the true purpose of higher education today, for most people, is to keep them clear of the job market for as long as possible. Where else are we going to park the majority of 18-to-24-year-olds unless it is in the equivalent of federally subsidized day care?

I assure you that college education in any field of study used to be highly valued and highly respected, that is, until education standards started to tumble. Today, there is residual respect for higher education but this is mostly inertia and why, as it takes nothing to get one, a bachelor's degree is so devalued.

My illiterate 11th grade nephew gets "Straight As" at school according to my proud sister-in-law...but, I say again, he's illiterate and can't string a couple of words together or do long division. He's college-bound of course and will probably spend his first year taking remedial courses.

 

[surftheiop]

I agree with you. Obviously there are still rigorous degrees in almost every field of study but, as you imply, the majority of people in college are wasting their time and money pursuing a shoddy and meaningless education. The point of most universities is to keep the warm bodies packed into the classrooms and the federal money flowing in.

On another note, the reason college is so expensive is because it is being paid for by a third party and there is, therefore, no restraint or real market forces dictating cost. Generally speaking, since the government will lend students almost whatever it takes to attend most universities, there is no down-side to increasing tuition to cover an increasing amount of bureaucracy and fluff, all of it providing lucrative jobs to the nations educrats. There are also, at most universities, no real entrance standards the necessity to keep the meat moving precluding any real interest in qualifications...which is the main reason why higher education is a joke, that is, that the curriculum in many majors is dumbed down to accomodate a less intelligent raw material.

A bachelor's degree is the new High School Diploma, by the way. On the other hand I bet that college-bound high school seniors in the 1950s were much better educated at high school graduation than most college students are at their college graduation today. I graded papers as a graduate student and some of the college sophomores whose papers I graded were functionally illiterate. When I was in high school we lost a letter grade for spelling mistakes in our term papers.

But the sweet irony is that all these "illiterate" college grads are vastly more technologically literate that previous generations and are therefore very desirable to alot of employeers.

 

[tennisball80]

 

[melanoleuca]

But the sweet irony is that all these "illiterate" college grads are vastly more technologically literate that previous generations and are therefore very desirable to alot of employeers.

No. No they're not. Playing video games and breathlessly text-messaging is not the same as technological literacy. In fact, American High School students are as deficient in technological skills as they are in science, math, history, and every other thing you can think of except self-esteem.

 

[surftheiop]

No. No they're not. Playing video games and breathlessly text-messaging is not the same as technological literacy. In fact, American High School students are as deficient in technological skills as they are in science, math, history, and every other thing you can think of except self-esteem.

Yeah on second thought your probably right, I got a biased perspective because I took alot of computer programming classes in highschool and now am majoring in engineering. I probably have been surronded by people who are above average for highschool kids in technological literacy.

 

[mig26x]

I would work for free as a doctor if for some reason the healthcare system collapsed and I couldn't get paid for services (assuming this happened after I finished med school of course). If you only work to earn money, save yourself the trouble and get an MBA or something.

Oh the beauty of pre-med!!! Give it a few years and you wont believe what you just wrote!!! We all went through that phase!!

 

[binko]

Oh the beauty of pre-med!!! Give it a few years and you wont believe what you just wrote!!! We all went through that phase!!

So there's no such thing as doctors who volunteer their services, medical mission trips, etc?

My aunt is a nurse and works for free. My mother is a lawyer and used to work for free. We're talking exclusively pro-bono. So why is it so insane to suggest I might want to volunteer if there were no chance of getting paid anyway? Do you think if there were no healthcare system you'd just sit on your hands playing X-box while people's diabetes and cancer raged out of control?

 

[melanoleuca]

So there's no such thing as doctors who volunteer their services, medical mission trips, etc?

My aunt is a nurse and works for free. My mother is a lawyer and used to work for free. We're talking exclusively pro-bono. So why is it so insane to suggest I might want to volunteer if there were no chance of getting paid anyway? Do you think if there were no healthcare system you'd just sit on your hands playing X-box while people's diabetes and cancer raged out of control?

Because, as you will see, the goat-rodeo that is American Medicine would be unbearable if there was no money in it. Volunteering is fine, lot's of doctors volunteer a little of their time here and there, but working for absolutely nothing in our current medical environment with our current patient population?

No way. If there was no health care system I'd either barter my services for food or ammunition to fight the flesh-eating zombies or I'll just sit on my ass like everybody else waiting for a handout from the Sun God, Ra-Obama.

The trouble with pre-meds, mostly, is that you all have no marketable skills and therefore have very low self-esteem and an even lower estimation of your worth. Struggle through medical training in all of its awful glory and when you arrive at the other end of the long gauntlet, now with a definite sey of valuable skills, you will look back and laugh that you ever even contemplated giving your services away.

Giving your services away, just so you know, is the surest way to ensure that your patients don't value what you do in the slightest as you become nothing more than another public utility, like water and sewage, that somebody else pays for.

 

[binko]

Because, as you will see, the goat-rodeo that is American Medicine would be unbearable if there was no money in it. Volunteering is fine, lot's of doctors volunteer a little of their time here and there, but working for absolutely nothing in our current medical environment with our current patient population?

Sigh. We've been over this: this is a post-apocalyptic scenario I'm describing.

The trouble with pre-meds, mostly, is that you all have no marketable skills and therefore have very low self-esteem and an even lower estimation of your worth. Struggle through medical training in all of its awful glory and when you arrive at the other end of the long gauntlet, now with a definite sey of valuable skills, you will look back and laugh that you ever even contemplated giving your services away.

I have marketable skills and a career that I'm giving up to apply to med school. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

Giving your services away, just so you know, is the surest way to ensure that your patients don't value what you do in the slightest as you become nothing more than another public utility, like water and sewage, that somebody else pays for.

Really? We better close down all the free clinics then, ASAP!

 

[Victronica]

And I forgot to add this whole "doctor" business is nonsense.

Physical therapists are now DPTs "doctors" of physical therapy.
pharmacists are Pharm Ds.
There are also OTDs. "Doctor" of occupational therapy.
Now we have DNP.


Whats next?? doctor of EMT or a doctor of respiratory thearpy.

I'm really sick of this crap.

It really shouldn't matter what people call themselves, Dr. or no Dr. If you are going into medicine to become a physician, then I hope you are in the profession to help sick people get better, not just so people will address you as Dr. Lifesaver. Now, if a PT wants to get their doctorate in PT and be called a Dr. then so be it. Seriously, I can't believe the audacity of some medical students. If you don't have a love of service, and you are going into a service profession, I feel so sorry for you because your life will be miserable and the paycheck won't make it better.

 

[maceo]

It really shouldn't matter what people call themselves, Dr. or no Dr. If you are going into medicine to become a physician, then I hope you are in the profession to help sick people get better, not just so people will address you as Dr. Lifesaver. Now, if a PT wants to get their doctorate in PT and be called a Dr. then so be it. Seriously, I can't believe the audacity of some medical students. If you don't have a love of service, and you are going into a service profession, I feel so sorry for you because your life will be miserable and the paycheck won't make it better.

Nice post. These are the exact premeds they are looking for. Someone who loves it so much they will work for free, and will take punishment. Just a sidenote we all thought this way. usually the more idealistic you are (like the above), the more jaded and depressed you will become later on when harsh reality sets in . Not scientific but a general observation.

 

[Victronica]

Nice post. These are the exact premeds they are looking for. Someone who loves it so much they will work for free, and will take punishment. Just a sidenote we all thought this way. usually the more idealistic you are (like the above), the more jaded and depressed you will become later on when harsh reality sets in . Not scientific but a general observation.

I know that becoming a physician won't be all rosy and nice, but I've worked in Labor and Delivery and ER for over three years now, not to mention I live in the backwoods of Arkansas, and I have seen and dealt with some pretty gnarly people, situations, etc. After spending years having to take pictures of IUFDs, clean up unbathed womens' urine, call social services to consult incestual rape of 12 year old girls, and administer rectal exams to men who definitely don't want rectal exams, I feel that I have seen enough sadness, sickness, and ridculousness to make me completely jaded towards medicine and medical care. But I am not jaded at all. It makes sick to think that there is the slightest possibility that I may not be doctor. I don't know of a career that should care for people more than medicine. All aspects from the lowly tech that I am to the nurses to pharmacists to the doctors (and everything in between). There is such a gigantic opportunity to make a difference in the lives of patients and their families, as well as future human beings.

Medicine is not for everyone, but the people that have the calling to become physcians and nurses and techs, etc. you're calling is tremendous and the impact you make can be overwhelming and never ending. It is, however, your choice.

 

[maceo]

I know that becoming a physician won't be all rosy and nice, but I've worked in Labor and Delivery and ER for over three years now, not to mention I live in the backwoods of Arkansas, and I have seen and dealt with some pretty gnarly people, situations, etc. After spending years having to take pictures of IUFDs, clean up unbathed womens' urine, call social services to consult incestual rape of 12 year old girls, and administer rectal exams to men who definitely don't want rectal exams, I feel that I have seen enough sadness, sickness, and ridculousness to make me completely jaded towards medicine and medical care. But I am not jaded at all. It makes sick to think that there is the slightest possibility that I may not be doctor. I don't know of a career that should care for people more than medicine. All aspects from the lowly tech that I am to the nurses to pharmacists to the doctors (and everything in between). There is such a gigantic opportunity to make a difference in the lives of patients and their families, as well as future human beings.

Medicine is not for everyone, but the people that have the calling to become physcians and nurses and techs, etc. you're calling is tremendous and the impact you make can be overwhelming and never ending. It is, however, your choice.

would you stop!! Now im kind of nauseous after reading that post. They will beat the idealism out of you, that much i can promise you.

 

[melanoleuca]

Really? We better close down all the free clinics then, ASAP!

Dude, my emergency Department is big, fat, expensive free clinic and I assure you that my medicaid patients, that is, the ones who pay absolutely nothing for their care, are generally rude, demanding, entitled, and treat the nurses like waitresses (they treat me respectfully because I am an older big, scary-looking white man who looks like a doctor).

 

[melanoleuca]

I know that becoming a physician won't be all rosy and nice, but I've worked in Labor and Delivery and ER for over three years now, not to mention I live in the backwoods of Arkansas, and I have seen and dealt with some pretty gnarly people, situations, etc. After spending years having to take pictures of IUFDs, clean up unbathed womens' urine, call social services to consult incestual rape of 12 year old girls, and administer rectal exams to men who definitely don't want rectal exams, I feel that I have seen enough sadness, sickness, and ridculousness to make me completely jaded towards medicine and medical care. But I am not jaded at all. It makes sick to think that there is the slightest possibility that I may not be doctor. I don't know of a career that should care for people more than medicine. All aspects from the lowly tech that I am to the nurses to pharmacists to the doctors (and everything in between). There is such a gigantic opportunity to make a difference in the lives of patients and their families, as well as future human beings.

Medicine is not for everyone, but the people that have the calling to become physcians and nurses and techs, etc. you're calling is tremendous and the impact you make can be overwhelming and never ending. It is, however, your choice.

Why on earth would a tech be doing a digital rectal exam, a procedure that is part of the physical exam and, as it needs to be "interpreted" by somebody who both knows what they're feeling for and has the responsibility for acting on what he may or may not find, is not something you let a tech do. It would be like asking the janitor to go into the room to perform a key part of the physical exam and then asking him what he thought.

 

[niranjan162]

Sigh. We've been over this: this is a post-apocalyptic scenario I'm describing.


I have marketable skills and a career that I'm giving up to apply to med school. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

In a post apocalyptic world you really think youre gonna be doing free healthcare?

If this happens people arent going to help each other and whoever has the biggest gun will get what they want.

When I was in college, I took alot of heavy science classes. My degree is useless. It is basically a degree that allows me to apply for higher education or be some lowly research monkey.

 

[PharmaTope]

And I forgot to add this whole "doctor" business is nonsense.

Physical therapists are now DPTs "doctors" of physical therapy.
pharmacists are Pharm Ds.
There are also OTDs. "Doctor" of occupational therapy.
Now we have DNP.


Whats next?? doctor of EMT or a doctor of respiratory thearpy.

I'm really sick of this crap.

the PharmD has been around for a very long time. pharmacy was not a mandatory pharmd. it was rph and the pharmd were the very distinguished people. i do not agree at all with programs implementing mandatory doctorate degrees.

in the usa, titles matter. nobody cares what you know, it is all about the title.

it sucks, but that is reality.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

can you imagine being a DNP and calling yourself Dr.? You'll spend the rest of your life correcting people:

No I didn't go to medical school...but i have a doctorate in nursing....no, no MD, a DNP...Yes I know but....Yes I know CPR, sir.....Now would you stick your tongue out please....

Or imagine your a DNP at some conference and you introduce yourself as Dr. XXX to group of people...one of the asks, "oh which medical school did you go to, my son is looking at some can you make a suggestion?"

not to mention the hate you would get from the MD's.

So go ahead and get your DNP, just don't call yourself Dr. xxx.


Also, maybe if doctors didnt treat nurses like sheit the nurses wouldnt be on this crusade to get even.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

You know, I never saw this in my experiences at the hospital. They're usually very flirtatious rather than angry with one another.

really? you saw a 30 yo intern flirting with that 65 yo nurse. ok i guess.

 

[n618ft]

What do you mean, "you all?!"

 

[Jamers]

Why are people so bent out of shape about this? Nobody is going to have these people performing CABGs any time soon. And let's be honest, family practice isn't exactly rocket science. Even the MDs refer, refer, refer the instant anything looks complex...

I am sorry, I have to disagree adamantly here. First it is FP (which by the way is far more complicated than just refer, refer, refer) then they are making residencies and invading into specialties as well. No, I am sorry, I am not sitting here with $340,000 in debt looking at around 11 years of schooling (college, med school and residency) to bow down to someone who finished all of their schooling in half the time. We have residency for a reason; to hone skills to assure we are correctly treating the patient. Just on my last rotation alone it seemed we were catching a mistake made by a new NP nearly every other day; some of these could have been deadly if left uncorrected. If the NP wants to be a doctor and work on their own I got one easy way for them to do that: GO TO MEDICAL SCHOOL.