why go to a top medical school?

[jeff25]

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Why would you think a top medical school is better than a prosaic medical school? Do they teach better? What does it mean for you once you are done medical school? Does it help you get jobs? Please help.

I have a choice between getting into a not-so-recognized medical school and getting into a top medical school--Columbia. The not-so-recognized one is only a 20 minute drive from my home;Columbia would be a 90 minute drive.
I would think that it would be better to go the closer one as I'll be able to have more time for studying and have more time for myself. Dorming is not an option.
What would I be losing if I don't go to Columbia?

 

[kam730]

This topic has been discussed quite a bit on here so you may want to do a search for more info. IMO, go to whatever school you get into which will leave you with the least amount of debt, this is usually your state school, unless you are lucky enough to get a scholarship from a private school. Unless it is your dream to work in academics at Harvard or some like institution, then where you go to med school means very little. That said, a better name can be somewhat helpful when applying to extremely competitive residencies, esp. plastic surgery. Also, support systems are important and it could be helpful to be near your family during the times of stress. All said, you still have to go where you will feel most comfortable and won't have regret. If names are important to you and you feel you might wonder "what if" for the rest of your life then by all means go to Columbia and end up with quite possibly 2x the debt, if not more. FYI, I go to a no-name school that most people on here would laugh at, but thats fine b/c we consistently match people in derm, ENT, ortho, etc. year in and year out, so I can safely say that it is possible to land any residency from any med school, you just might have to work slightly harder.

 

[THP]

If you are going to use the word "prosaic" to describe a med school (I've never even heard that word before) then I suggest you go to the well known one.

 

[jeff25]

FYI, I go to a no-name school that most people on here would laugh at, but thats fine b/c we consistently match people in derm, ENT, ortho, etc. year in and year out, so I can safely say that it is possible to land any residency from any med school, you just might have to work slightly harder.

When you say that I'd have to work a little harder in the no name school[if you care, it's called SUNY Downstate], does that imply that the no-name schools don't teach as well?

 

[Syranope2]

When you say that I'd have to work a little harder in the no name school[if you care, it's called SUNY Downstate], does that imply that the no-name schools don't teach as well?

I think he means that you won't have the big name to support you on your residency application so you will have to work that much harder to distinguish yourself. whereas being in the middle of the pack at a top tier school would be looked upon pretty favorably, you'd have to be near the top of your class at a middle-tier school in order to get that same advantage for residency.

 

[futrdrbaker]

Why would you think a top medical school is better than a prosaic medical school? Do they teach better? What does it mean for you once you are done medical school? Does it help you get jobs? Please help.

I have a choice between getting into a not-so-recognized medical school and getting into a top medical school--Columbia. The not-so-recognized one is only a 20 minute drive from my home;Columbia would be a 90 minute drive.
I would think that it would be better to go the closer one as I'll be able to have more time for studying and have more time for myself. Dorming is not an option.
What would I be losing if I don't go to Columbia?

Jeff25,
If I remember correctly, in a previous thread, you said that you are currently a senior in high school, preparing to go to college. My advice to you is to focus on getting into a good college right now, and getting a good start. Once you are comfortable with undergrad and have a handle on things, you can start looking forward to/worrying about medical school. Don't get me wrong--stay focused on your goal, but get through the prerequisite steps first. Hopefully, by the time you are a senior and begin interviews, you will have a better understanding of yourself and the type of school you want to go to. Also, on interviews, you will learn more about the schools and how comfortable you feel there--you can't go to a medical school based on reputation or distance alone.

And I also hate to say this, but in the long run, it also depends on which school accepts you and offers you a position--it's not like undergrad, where (some) schools accept almost everyone that applies.

 

[pratik7]

I think the power house schools get their good rep from their research. Not to say they cant teach but it also means that schools that arent research oriented can have very good clinical training.

I mean how often are you really going to need to know that the 8,21 translocation in AML is a fusion of the ETO gene

 

[tr]

I think the power house schools get their good rep from their research. Not to say they cant teach but it also means that schools that arent research oriented can have very good clinical training.

That's true of course; but on the whole you get better clinical training at large tertiary-care centers, where the patients are interesting and the residents are competent.

I go to a "name-brand" school, and we have a few away rotations at secondary- and community-type hospitals. I learn 100x more from a given rotation at my home hospital than anywhere else. All the interesting patients get sent here. If you ever want to see neurosarcoidosis or polyarteritis nodosa, you're better off at a large institution. Otherwise I hope you don't mind seeing nothing but wrist fractures and asthma over your 2 clinical years.

In addition, and I recognize that this is not very PC of me so I'm wearing my flame-******ant suit, it's been abundantly clear to me and the other students that the residents at away hospitals are just not as competent as our home-institution residents. They aren't. They don't know as much pathophys, they can't present as well, their differentials are smaller, and their clinical judgement is frequently poor. Obviously there are exceptions, but on the whole this is what I've seen. You can only learn well if you have good teachers.

I agree that it's important not to put yourself too deeply in debt, and also that you can be competitive for any residency provided you do well during medical school. So you need to weigh all the factors. I'm just putting my 2 cents in because nobody else in the thread has made this particular point.

 

[kam730]

When you say that I'd have to work a little harder in the no name school[if you care, it's called SUNY Downstate], does that imply that the no-name schools don't teach as well?

Yes, the other poster has it right. I did not mean to imply the teaching is subpar at lesser name schools. In fact, unless someone has attended more than one med school, nobody can really make those comparisons. As all schools must adhere to the same accreditation standards I imagine teaching will be fine at any school. I will say that I have often heard the exact opposite opinion speculated on here, that being that at some big name institutions the faculty is so involved in their research that they may not pay as much attention to students/teaching. But like I said, it's hard to say if that's true. What I meant was that you may have to work harder to "prove" yourself, ie. may have to do better on boards, research may be more important, etc. in order to offset the lack of "big name" med school. Again, this will only really be important in the most competetive fields or if you want to go to a top 10 residency in a less competitive field.

 

[kam730]

That's true of course; but on the whole you get better clinical training at large tertiary-care centers, where the patients are interesting and the residents are competent.

I go to a "name-brand" school, and we have a few away rotations at secondary- and community-type hospitals. I learn 100x more from a given rotation at my home hospital than anywhere else. All the interesting patients get sent here. If you ever want to see neurosarcoidosis or polyarteritis nodosa, you're better off at a large institution. Otherwise I hope you don't mind seeing nothing but wrist fractures and asthma over your 2 clinical years.

In addition, and I recognize that this is not very PC of me so I'm wearing my flame-******ant suit, it's been abundantly clear to me and the other students that the residents at away hospitals are just not as competent as our home-institution residents. They aren't. They don't know as much pathophys, they can't present as well, their differentials are smaller, and their clinical judgement is frequently poor. Obviously there are exceptions, but on the whole this is what I've seen. You can only learn well if you have good teachers.

I agree that it's important not to put yourself too deeply in debt, and also that you can probably be competitive for any residency provided you do well during medical school. So you need to weigh all the factors. I'm just putting my 2 cents in because nobody else in the thread has made this particular point.

Uh, I hope you realize that it's not only the big name schools which are located at tertiary facilities. My no-name state school is in a large metropolitan city of >1 million people, and our level 1 trauma center serves half our state and parts of surrounding states. We do not rotate at community hospitals. We see plenty of pathology. Just wanted to clear that up. It's not like only people in Boston, New York, Chicago, and California get rare diseases. Where do you think the people go when they live in Alabama, Nebraska, Montana, and Tennessee? They go to the nearest tertiary center, which is likely the no-name state medical school.

 

[Bertelman]

That's true of course; but on the whole you get better clinical training at large tertiary-care centers, where the patients are interesting and the residents are competent.

I go to a "name-brand" school, and we have a few away rotations at secondary- and community-type hospitals. I learn 100x more from a given rotation at my home hospital than anywhere else. All the interesting patients get sent here. If you ever want to see neurosarcoidosis or polyarteritis nodosa, you're better off at a large institution. Otherwise I hope you don't mind seeing nothing but wrist fractures and asthma over your 2 clinical years.

In addition, and I recognize that this is not very PC of me so I'm wearing my flame-******ant suit, it's been abundantly clear to me and the other students that the residents at away hospitals are just not as competent as our home-institution residents. They aren't. They don't know as much pathophys, they can't present as well, their differentials are smaller, and their clinical judgement is frequently poor. Obviously there are exceptions, but on the whole this is what I've seen. You can only learn well if you have good teachers.

I agree that it's important not to put yourself too deeply in debt, and also that you can probably be competitive for any residency provided you do well during medical school. So you need to weigh all the factors. I'm just putting my 2 cents in because nobody else in the thread has made this particular point.

I'll admit I'm far away from SUNY Downstate, so I'm not quite sure what kind of teaching facilities they have. But I certainly don't go to a prestigious school. I haven't seen neurosarcoidosis, but I've seen neurocysticercosis. I've also followed a 2-year old patient 6 months post-liver transplant for rejection/infection, along with your garden-variety asthma exacerbation. On the same ward, in the same week.

Seriously, that's great for you to have worked hard and made it through med school at a top institution. I'm sure your education is great. But don't believe that the residents you see at the outlying hospitals represent those of us who didn't attend your school. And don't believe that all of us who didn't attend your school are relegated to community residency programs. Folks from my school have worked hard and matched at highly competitive spots in highly competitive residencies.

As for "only learning well if you have good teachers", how do you know, without specific experience in two institutions, what the quality of instruction may be? Do you just hope, for yourself, that your "name-brand" financial aid packeage is paying for better instruction? Don't fool yourself.
I know med school is different from undergrad, but there are a handful of students in our class who graduated from the Ivys. Honestly, if if I hadn't been told, I would have never expected these people to be Harvard and Yale grads based on their performance and knowledge. There are a dozen people in my class who are more intellligent, work harder, and shine brighter on the wards than those few. I can only imagine the same is true for medical students and residents. You need look no further than the relative competitiveness of certain schools' residencies. Say you go to Columbia. Do you think Columbia has the most brilliant specialists in every field? Unlikely. Some of the brightest are at state schools. As for residency competitiveness, this often has as much to do with location of the school rather than actual strength of the program. As a matter of fact, year after year this is the number one reason students give for choosing their residency. That means the smartest go to certain institutions based on their location (Seattle, San Fran, Denver, Boston, NYC, wherever) rather than the strength of the academic program.

 

[tr]

Uh, I hope you realize that it's not only the big name schools which are located at tertiary facilities. My no-name state school is in a large metropolitan city of >1 million people, and our level 1 trauma center serves half our state and parts of surrounding states...

Then that is a good medical education. If you had read my post, you would have seen that I said specifically that you get better clinical training at "large tertiary-care facilities," not at "name-brand med schools." (But there is a lot of overlap between the two.)

But don't believe that the residents you see at the outlying hospitals represent those of us who didn't attend your school. And don't believe that all of us who didn't attend your school are relegated to community residency programs. Folks from my school have worked hard and matched at highly competitive spots in highly competitive residencies.

Actually I specifically said in my post that "you can be competitive for any residency provided you do well during medical school."

My point was not about where a given student might match, but about the quality of instruction he would receive from the local residents. The AVERAGE resident at a program that went twelve deep into its ROL is not as good as the AVERAGE resident at an institution that got all of its first-ranked seniors, and on the whole will be a less effective teacher for med students. That only stands to reason.

As for "only learning well if you have good teachers", how do you know, without specific experience in two institutions, what the quality of instruction may be?

I am pointing out that my direct, personal experience with away hospitals has been less than stellar. I claimed no knowledge beyond that.

Do you just hope, for yourself, that your "name-brand" financial aid package is paying for better instruction?

My education was free. You think I would have shelled out for this shiznit? 😉

As for residency competitiveness, this often has as much to do with location of the school rather than actual strength of the program.

All of the hospitals I refer to are in the same general geographic area.

 

[Paws]

I think I would also have a hard time making this decision. Why? because Downstate is a little rough around the edges, yes, but it is cheaper and you can see really incredibly interesting things. Kings County Hospital, anyone? I mean, the clinical stuff is outstanding. But on the other hands, it is Kings and so there are some scary downsides like trying to walk to the subway late at night in November.

Columbia is also totally awesome! incredible minds up there, Eric Kandel for starters. Wow! Plus the quality of many residents and faculty is top notch. I also always felt pretty safe walking around 168th street at night. Security is pretty good overall and the neighbor had a different feel.

I went to Columbia ugrad and to be honest, I miss the high quality of teaching I got there. Once you have been in a really high power academic environment, your mind has been opened to the limitless possibilities of intellectual pursuit. Sometimes I feel frustrated by the prosaic (great word!) quality of other institutions. A poor teacher is a difficult thing to overcome, and in medical school I have definitely found myself limited in my education by the constraints of a mediocre instructor. I never found that in my time at Columbia. I also liked being around people from all over the world doing the most incredible things. That extra stimulation is priceless.

So yes, decide on money but I recommend the respect for your own intellect. If you have the opportunity to have your mind expanded by sharpening your wits against really top notch thinkers - including also your classmates - then I say go for that. My life was changed by my time at Columbia, absolutely. So I recommend that experience. Then, when you go elsewhere you will have an intellectual framework to work from.

I am not saying that you can't go to a small state school and not do well, of course you can! Lots of people do. But if you are interested in the specialized environment of a large research university then now is when you can make that decision. Just my own thoughts to add to the pot ...

 

[pratik7]

That's true of course; but on the whole you get better clinical training at large tertiary-care centers, where the patients are interesting and the residents are competent.

TR,

I totally get what you are saying. But I cant think of any med schools that is not a tertiary care center. In fact, I think more rural academic center, like U Kentucky, UAB and Penn State tend to serve entire states ( Penn State most of Penn outside of Philly) and thus anything "interesting" within a 300 mile radius is sent to them. While Columbia, for example, may overlap its service area with many other area hospitals. But i think both have its share of interesting cases(you did what with a tractor?!?!?!)

 

[Bertelman]

Then that is a good medical education. If you had read my post, you would have seen that I said specifically that you get better clinical training at "large tertiary-care facilities," not at "name-brand med schools." (But there is a lot of overlap between the two.)

Thanks, I did read your post. I guess I assumed you were responding to the OP, who was, aside from asking a general question, comparing two distinct schools- Columbia and SUNY. Again, I'll have to claim ignorance on Downstate, but more on that later...

Actually I specifically said in my post that "you can be competitive for any residency provided you do well during medical school."

As for myself (and kam) the implication of your statements was quite clearly that the OP should choose Columbia because he could recieve a superior education, and thus become a doc who would better under stand pathophys, create longer diffs, and present patients in a superior manner.

My point was not about where a given student might match, but about the quality of instruction he would receive from the local residents. The AVERAGE resident at a program that went twelve deep into its ROL is not as good as the AVERAGE resident at an institution that got all of its first-ranked seniors, and on the whole will be a less effective teacher for med students. That only stands to reason.

Agreed, but I would argue that the CLINICAL teaching , particularly from residents, that you receive at your medical institution does little to make you a superior doctor in the long run. Sure it will give you a few months head start in internship, and it may inspire you to try a specialty you would have otherwise never have considered. But, by and large, you become the wonderful doctor you will become based on your residency education.

I am pointing out that my direct, personal experience with away hospitals has been less than stellar. I claimed no knowledge beyond that.

Then why are you using this limited knowledge to advise him on which of two medical schools to attend?

My education was free. You think I would have shelled out for this shiznit? 😉

All of the hospitals I refer to are in the same general geographic area.

Maybe, but my wife assures me Brooklyn does not equal Manhattan. If they moved Columbia across the river, something tells me it might slip a little. 😉


Pratik beat me to it, but really, I don't see what you are getting at with the large teritary-care medical school thing.

And really, getting back to the OP, this guy is in high school. I asked him in another post. I'm interested in knowing how he currently has a "choice" to go to Columbia. Do they have some early matric program for high school seniors? Or by choice does he merely mean, "I will be applying to this program."

 

[tr]

As for myself (and kam) the implication of your statements was quite clearly that the OP should choose Columbia because he could recieve a superior education, and thus become a doc who would better under stand pathophys, create longer diffs, and present patients in a superior manner.

On rereading my post, I really don't think it was unclear. I suspect that the two of you had the "where-will-I-match" question on the brain and therefore jumped to your own conclusions. Don't worry, it happens a lot (both online and off). Again, for the record, my point is that students are better served by working with highly competent residents.

Agreed, but I would argue that the CLINICAL teaching , particularly from residents, that you receive at your medical institution does little to make you a superior doctor in the long run. Sure it will give you a few months head start in internship, and it may inspire you to try a specialty you would have otherwise never have considered. But, by and large, you become the wonderful doctor you will become based on your residency education.

Sure, that could be a valid point. I'll get back to you after residency. But then what you're trying to say is that the quality of the education you receive in med school is mostly meaningless. Do you really want to take that stance?

Then why are you using this limited knowledge to advise him on which of two medical schools to attend?

Again, if you will kindly reread my original post you will see that I did not come down on the side of one school or the other, but advised the OP to weigh all the factors carefully. I noted specifically that I was bringing up the particular issue I mentioned only because nobody else had brought it up (not because I thought it should be the deciding factor).

Pratik beat me to it, but really, I don't see what you are getting at with the large tertiary-care medical school thing.

Okay, let's take an example. Say you go to Ponce. Puerto Rico has a population of 4 million. Whereas if you go to Columbia, you not only have the local population of 8 million, you also get interesting/difficult cases sent there from all over the tri-state area (population about 20 million depending on where you draw your boundaries, with lots of immigrants, who frequently bring interesting and unusual diseases with them) and often beyond. Obviously there are other high-quality hospitals in the tri-state area, but there are also other hospitals in PR. In general, I would suspect that a med student would be more likely to see a diverse sampling of interesting diseases at Columbia than at Ponce. My point was that the OP should factor this into his decision. (I don't have enough knowledge of the hospitals he's looking at to get any more specific than that.)

 

[Anka]

Based at my experience rotating through programs not affiliated with my home medical school (they farm us out for a few required clerkships), I've got to say, it made me very happy that I'm at a top ten school. The residents at the outside hospitals were just not the same caliber as the residents at my home school... and it showed in what they were able to teach you about clinical medicine. When I talk about "clinical medicine" I don't mean how to put in an IV. You can learn that anywhere. What I mean is you've got a clinical problem and you need to think through it. You can't learn that thinking mode from a textbook -- you learn it from your residents. That said, you can learn it at a good community medical school, but you're chances of running into the right residents are better the better the medical school you're at.

The other thing, I find I'm treated far more respectfully at my institution than at the other places I visited. At my home school, I get to do a lot more, people take more time out to explain things to me, etc.

Best,
Anka

 

[tr]

Anka: Exactly.

 

[Bertelman]

But then what you're trying to say is that the quality of the education you receive in med school is mostly meaningless. Do you really want to take that stance?

I'm not trying to say that. Since we both have developed myopic vision when reading each other's posts, here's my quote. "Agreed, but I would argue that the CLINICAL teaching , particularly from residents, that you receive at your medical institution does little to make you a superior doctor in the long run...But, by and large, you become the wonderful doctor you will become based on your residency education."

I'm not referring to the entire education. I'm referring to one year. It sounds like your residents are amazing, but really, I receive the bulk of my education from the attendings. The residents are just the icing.

In general, I would suspect that a med student would be more likely to see a diverse sampling of interesting diseases at Columbia than at Ponce. My point was that the OP should factor this into his decision. (I don't have enough knowledge of the hospitals he's looking at to get any more specific than that.)

That may be, but here's my experience. I am in a million+ population city in the Southwest. I know it doesn't compare to the 8 million in Manhattan- oh wait, that's NYC. Isn't there like 5 other med schools there? OK, so it doesn't compare to the 1.5 mil in Manhattan, but our hospital is the main show for the million in our city, with the exception of private hospitals.

Nonetheless, a couple dozen in our class travel to a much smaller hospital in a much smaller town. They actually see a much richer pathology than we do, because folks near their hospital frequently get absolutely no medical care until their abdominal tumor is ridiculously large. So, in some situations you may actually see more interesting pathologies the further you are from large metropolitan areas and their associated institutions, which are often utilized by citizens much earlier in a disease course. As for the amazing residents, there are actually no residents at this outlying institution. WHAT?!? Who teaches the students? They claim they actually get a superior education because there is no buffer between them and the attending. Yep, if you remove the intern, the PGY2 and the chief, students actually learn more.

And you described the rotations you did at outside hospitals as "secondary" or "community". Are they even affiliated with a medical school other than yours? Again, the presumption is that less-than-name-brand institutions have poor quality rotations, but it sounds like this rotation at your institution was pretty lame, too. I'm glad my school never made me go to a community hospital for a rotation.

Really, I can see your point, and I imagine the residents at your institution are phenomenal. I just don't think the difference between my medical school and yours is as clear as some may think.

 

[kam730]

Based at my experience rotating through programs not affiliated with my home medical school (they farm us out for a few required clerkships), I've got to say, it made me very happy that I'm at a top ten school. The residents at the outside hospitals were just not the same caliber as the residents at my home school... and it showed in what they were able to teach you about clinical medicine. When I talk about "clinical medicine" I don't mean how to put in an IV. You can learn that anywhere. What I mean is you've got a clinical problem and you need to think through it. You can't learn that thinking mode from a textbook -- you learn it from your residents. That said, you can learn it at a good community medical school, but you're chances of running into the right residents are better the better the medical school you're at.

The other thing, I find I'm treated far more respectfully at my institution than at the other places I visited. At my home school, I get to do a lot more, people take more time out to explain things to me, etc.

Best,
Anka

First of all, what is a "community med school?" I know about community residency programs, but as far as I know these exist at places which don't have a medical school, hence the difference. No-name state school does not mean "community med school". In fact, unlike yourself and tr, at my school we are not "farmed out" to any community hospitals, we only rotate at the teaching institutions affiliated with our medical school.

 

[tr]

I'm not referring to the entire education. I'm referring to one year. It sounds like your residents are amazing, but really, I receive the bulk of my education from the attendings. The residents are just the icing.

Interesting. Perhaps the system in place at your school is different then. We only see the attending during rounds. By the time that happens, the patient has already been admitted and worked up, so most of the learning is over. The attending usually has good ideas to add, but the nuts and bolts of the case have been dealt with by the residents.

That may be, but here's my experience. I am in a million+ population city in the Southwest. I know it doesn't compare to the 8 million in Manhattan- oh wait, that's NYC. Aren't there like 5 other med schools there? OK, so it doesn't compare to the 1.5 mil in Manhattan, but our hospital is the main show for the million in our city, with the exception of private hospitals... Really, I can see your point, and I imagine the residents at your institution are phenomenal. I just don't think the difference between my medical school and yours is as clear as some may think.

I think you should stop taking this so personally. I don't know where you go to med school and I did not say anything about your institution (unless you go to Ponce, but it's not in the SW). I'm sure your education has been excellent (although it appears to have made you somewhat defensive, or were you this way already before?).

Nonetheless, a couple dozen in our class travel to a much smaller hospital in a much smaller town. They actually see a much richer pathology than we do, because folks near their hospital frequently get absolutely no medical care until their abdominal tumor is ridiculously large. So, in some situations you may actually see more interesting pathologies the further you are from large metropolitan areas and their associated institutions, which are often utilized by citizens much earlier in a disease course.

Yeah, we have some 'away away' rotations too. But this point is moot as a way to distinguish between med schools because all of them do have a hospital, and the fact of there being a hospital there makes it more likely for locals to utilize it.

As for the amazing residents, there are actually no residents at this outlying institution. WHAT?!? Who teaches the students? They claim they actually get a superior education because there is no buffer between them and the attending. Yep, if you remove the intern, the PGY2 and the chief, students actually learn more.

That sounds reasonable, but it's not the way most hospitals function at this time. I don't know of any hospitals that work without residents, so as an applicant you can make the safe bet that you will be working with them as well. Might as well go for good ones.

And you described the rotations you did at outside hospitals as "secondary" or "community". Are they even affiliated with a medical school other than yours?

At least one of them is because there were students from another school there as well. I'm not sure about the others. Why do you ask?

Again, the presumption is that less-than-name-brand institutions have poor quality rotations, but it sounds like this rotation at your institution was pretty lame, too. I'm glad my school never made me go to a community hospital for a rotation.

I agree, and I was pretty annoyed about the away rotations. But luckily they were a small part of the overall experience.

 

[taylor6902]

it's presumptuous for a kid in high school to talk about attending P&S. i would get my diploma before i thought about which medical school to attend. ENJOY YOUR YOUTH; you lose it too quickly!

 

[Bertelman]

I think you should stop taking this so personally. I don't know where you go to med school and I did not say anything about your institution (unless you go to Ponce, but it's not in the SW). I'm sure your education has been excellent (although it appears to have made you somewhat defensive, or were you this way already before?).

Really, this tit-for-tat has survived longer than it should have. No, I'm not taking it personally. But you're surprised when statements like, "abundantly clear to me and the other students that the residents at away hospitals are just not as competent as our home-institution residents" ruffle some feathers? Statements like that should be qualified by the type of away institution, otherwise all of us that don't attend "name-brand" institutions might take offense.

Thanks for keeping this civil, compared to many of the exchanges on these forums that quickly degenerate. However, accussing someone of "taking it too personally" or being "defensive" only serves to direct the attention away from their statements, thus calling to question their character. Try some modesty and maybe cool down the inflammatory statements, otherwise you'll be perceived as looking for a battle.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I go to SASS (small-ass-state-school). I had a good friend who went to a "top medical school". I had more opportunity to:
1. scrub in on cases as first assist
2. put in chest tubes, central lines, a-lines, participate in trauma/resuscitation, etc
3. more attending face time

Sure, this is just one example, and a very limited one at that. I recommend going someplace where you get to do things, not sit by and watch (or be shoved aside). Not all of our residents are great teachers, but I have had more than a few residents here who took the time to explain things and go over the patient's case and review the most critical points. This isn't always possible in the ED when you have like 8 more patients waiting in the wings to admit, but spread out over 12 weeks (I assume we are using medicine references), I think you get a lot of teaching (and who wants to learn at your last 4AM admit anyway?). We aren't spoon-fed here thats for certain. You have to be self-motivated to get through many rotations, but I also wouldn't say that it is a bad thing, either.

When/if the OP gets outta college, and when/if she does get into more than one med school, go to one where you will be happy and think you will get a good education. Prestige can open a few doors when you apply to residency, but it can't stop making you look like an ass (that is, if you already are one). This thread is pure comedy.

 

[fuel200]

OP, are you already in both these schools, if not(which I think is the case since it's unbelievably early in the admissions season), I think it's slightly ridiculous to assume you'll get into both...if you don't now by know, getting into some med schools is slightly random, I attend Columbia P&S right now but I got flat out rejected by one of my state med schools. The thread has taken a bad turn, and if you the OP is still in high school, I don't understand why we're even responding.

 

[tr]

No, I'm not taking it personally. But you're surprised when statements like, "abundantly clear to me and the other students that the residents at away hospitals are just not as competent as our home-institution residents" ruffle some feathers? Statements like that should be qualified by the type of away institution, otherwise all of us that don't attend "name-brand" institutions might take offense.

So any time anybody notes that some hospitals are not good, you get offended because your hospital might have been included???

Try some modesty and maybe cool down the inflammatory statements, otherwise you'll be perceived as looking for a battle.

Hang on a second here. The OP asked for advice. I gave some input based on my own experiences. Then you came barreling in here and accused me of saying that nobody at your school was going to match well, and said that I had no right to give advice because my experience was too limited. Huh????

I'd just like to say that I am the last person to get hung up on credentials. I went to a SLAC for undergrad by choice, and the smartest and most competent people I know are mostly not Ivy League products. There are certainly downsides to the name-brand experience.

I don't usually get involved in these 'prestige' threads, and this is exactly why. Too many people think that if you mention some of the advantages of a name-brand education, you are attacking them directly, etc., etc., etc. Do I get offended when you say you got more clinical exposure/weren't farmed out/whatever? No, of course not. You had your experiences and I have mine, each with their own pros and cons. I'm more than happy to hear about what other people's experiences have been. What irritates the **** out of me is when you can't have a favorable opinion of a big-name school without every state-school student in the country jumping down your throat. Untwist those knickers and then maybe we can talk.

Really, this tit-for-tat has survived longer than it should have.

I didn't view it as a tit-for-tat. That is entirely your own perception (and that attitude is why I say you are defensive). As far as I am concerned we are sharing our respective experiences in an open forum, for the benefit of each other and of other readers. Believe me, the last thing that interests me is a pissing contest.

 

[Bertelman]

I learn 100x more from a given rotation at my home hospital than anywhere else.

So, then I don't think it's a stretch to infer that you presume those not learning at your institution are 100x less intelligent than you.

"Might have been included"? When I read it, ANYWHERE ELSE = ALL OTHER MEDICAL SCHOOLS. I understand these are your personal experiences. Maybe I could have understood that if, in your original post, you had stated, "I have learned so much more at my institution than I have at the community centers at which we rotate."

Seriously, my knickers, if I chose to wear a pair, are not twisted. I truly don't care about any prior experiences you have discussing your medical school. Every state-schooler is not here- it's really just me (and I don't plan on going down your throat unless i'm in the tri-state area). I'm fine with the notion you can often get a superior education at a name-brand school. I have a favorable opinion of Ivy Leagues, too. I'm just not down with people disparaging other residents, other hospitals, whatever. You didn't merely state other residents were not as qualified. You said, "...their clinical judgment is often poor." Fact or not, that's an insult. I don't know why I'm defending them. But I stand by my impression of your first post, and I am sure this discussion would have played out differently if some of your language would not have been so provocative. Don't be disappointed in the turn it has taken. We've each played a role in it getting this far. If I came "barreling in", you returned guns 'a blazing.

 

[SurgeryChef]

If I remember correctly, in a previous thread, you said that you are currently a senior in high school, preparing to go to college.

pants on fire!

 

[Anka]

I think we're doing the OP a disservice by turning this into a prestige thread. Look, he asked about what the advantages of "big name" med schools are vs. "prosaic" med schools [give the kid a break... remember what you were like in high school?].

People are offering up a bunch of personal experiences. My guess is, that means you're going to have a bunch of people who are at a "top ten med school" who rotated through community hospitals with med students from other schools, and another bunch of people who are from less prestigious schools, who did away rotations at more prestigious schools. It sounds like we have a couple of representatives from the former category, but we still haven't heard much from people from the latter category. Unfortunatly, because this thread has degenerated, we probably won't get to hear from them.

Best,
Anka

 

[DarksideAllstar]

I think we're doing the OP a disservice by turning this into a prestige thread. Look, he asked about what the advantages of "big name" med schools are vs. "prosaic" med schools [give the kid a break... remember what you were like in high school?].

People are offering up a bunch of personal experiences. My guess is, that means you're going to have a bunch of people who are at a "top ten med school" who rotated through community hospitals with med students from other schools, and another bunch of people who are from less prestigious schools, who did away rotations at more prestigious schools. It sounds like we have a couple of representatives from the former category, but we still haven't heard much from people from the latter category. Unfortunatly, because this thread has degenerated, we probably won't get to hear from them.

Best,
Anka

I actually responded as an example of the latter, so either you skimmed the thread or you misunderstood my position.

 

[banana5]

-

 

[SoCuteMD]

Just because the OP is a high school student doesn't mean that there aren't other people who have the same question and are in college and want to hear what people think, like me.

It's great to look ahead, but I think what people get annoyed by is a high school student claiming s/he has a "choice" relating to being accepted at Columbia vs. SUNY Downstate. The fact of the matter is that where you go to medical school is largely dependent upon where you get in - and it's very premature (and seems a bit presumptuous) for anyone who has not been accepted to both schools to state that s/he has a choice between them. There are lots of threads on the prestige issue in the Allo forum and probably in Pre-Allo as well.

 

[DebDynamite]

Uh, I hope you realize that it's not only the big name schools which are located at tertiary facilities. My no-name state school is in a large metropolitan city of >1 million people, and our level 1 trauma center serves half our state and parts of surrounding states. We do not rotate at community hospitals. We see plenty of pathology. Just wanted to clear that up. It's not like only people in Boston, New York, Chicago, and California get rare diseases. Where do you think the people go when they live in Alabama, Nebraska, Montana, and Tennessee? They go to the nearest tertiary center, which is likely the no-name state medical school.

Well, this is true. I'm a student at a SASS, like UCSFbound, in one of the above mentioned states. We have a pretty eclectic experience as far as resident & attending training. While we have a level one trauma center here, and attendings from all the "big name" schools (I'm in a "beautiful" part of the country- attendings from the NE retire here all the time, for instance I was up all nite in OBGYN with a Harvard trained MD, and a DO senior rez).

We also get IMG's and FMG's, in the less competitive specialties. We get sub-i's from all over the place. Some of the FMG's, IMG's and visiting sub i's do frankly seem less astute than the "average" student here at my SASS. But some of them can teach the pants out of you and seem to know a bazillion more zebras than others. Like most things in life it's what you make of it. We have plenty of grumpy attendings who trained at JH, Mayo, etc who won't say crap to us, don't pimp us and ignore us, opting to speak only to the residents. We have plenty of residents who graduated from my SASS that teach the living hell outta us. In my experience the teaching and subsequent learning that is going on here can be stellar. This goes for the first two dreadful years of the whole experience.

We also get what seems to be a healthy ratio of bread & butter- to zebras. I am after all a third year and DM, HTN, asthma and hernias are going to be the fundamentals of step 2. If I had to to med school all over again (note the "had to"), I'd still come to my SASS. I never applied to a single private school, nor did I apply to my larger state med school - which is better known for research. My SASS is known for cranking out primary care docs and consistently ranks in the top 6 for training rural docs, top 30ish for P care. I knew this when I applied, and did not go for the larger "research" institution in my state.

So, what the OP needs to figure out, after graduating from HS, College, predmed, MCAT/AMCAS land and acceptance letters, is what kind of experience they want, what matters more to them in life, and go for it.

You could be a grounded, well-rounded genius, or have the common sense of a turnip and graduate from med school anywhere.