Why is it that most pass fail schools are in the top 20??

[HealthHare]

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It seems that pass fail pre-clinical grading is mostly utilized by top 20 schools, while mid and lower tiers typically use traditional grades. Why is this?

 

[bigdogrob4284]

I don't think that's true. I think pass/fail can be found at all prestige levels of schools.

 

[HealthHare]

Pass fail definitely has a higher prevalence in top schools ( us news top 20-30) than schools outside this ranking.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AljTNZe5EtqgdG5qTzFld1pxelY2M0llcVk4b292ZHc#gid=0

 

[talinnlove]

Johns Hopkins' opinion on use of P/F:

Some schools rely entirely on a Pass/No Pass grading system because they feel it fosters a spirit of cooperation rather than competition between their students.

Hopkins, Wash U, U Penn, and Mayo all use pass/fail. Quinnipiac, Central Michigan, TCMC, and Albany do as well. There are examples of both grading systems in all of the amorphous med school ranking tiers we (for some reason) subscribe to.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

How does P/F affect residency applications? Do your Step 1 and LORs become more important?

 

[cookiemonsters]

How does P/F affect residency applications? Do your Step 1 and LORs become more important?

I was told by the dean at one med school I interviewed at that pre-clinical grades are largely a non-factor for residency applications. I think what med students on SDN say is that Step 1 > clinical grades > everything else. Med students feel free to correct me.

 

[The Kraken]

There are still internal rankings at schools with p/f for the most part and clinicals are usually actually graded. Step 1 and clinicals + research become selection factors.

 

[BABSstudent]

It seems that pass fail pre-clinical grading is mostly utilized by top 20 schools, while mid and lower tiers typically use traditional grades. Why is this?

Could it be there top schools are more likely to change to adapt to new times and would thus use pass/fail at a higher rate?

Just my 2 cents.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Could it be there top schools are more likely to change to adapt to new times and would thus use pass/fail at a higher rate?

Just my 2 cents.

That and they probably feel that their students are capable of excelling without academic coercion via grading and ranking. Yale says that outright when they talk about their special system.

 

[darkjedi]

Many of the top tier schools believe that their reputation/selectivity adds enough to their student's application that they can forgo pre-clinical grades as a metric to rank students. Preclinical grades are already pretty low on the scale of what is important on a residency application anyway, and many schools believe that it affords more benefit to the students to foster that sense of cooperation rather than competition.

As for UPenn, they are on a mixed system, where the first 6 months is P/F and the other preclinical semesters are H/P/F. Almost every school has the same grading scheme for clinicals.

 

[Ost3oclast]

My school isnt top tier and we are P/F. Although I think a higher portion of these schools are top tier, they exist everywhere. My school said they moved to this system because everyone was becoming so competitive. Internal rank is kept though.

 

[alpinism]

Generally speaking, top schools tend to focus more on student wellness and stress reduction than their lower ranked counterparts. P/F systems are designed to give students more freedom and responsibility for their own education.

In addition, top schools are in the business of producing medical researchers, policy-makers, and future leaders. Because of this they want their students to have more time available for pursuing outside interests besides studying.

At the same time, school name and prestige still plays a small but significant role in residency applications which makes it easier for top schools to get away with not having preclinical grades.

Keep in mind that most program directors focus on step 1 scores, clinical grades, LORs, and research when deciding who to interview for residency. As previously stated, preclinical grades are usually very far down the list of selection factors.

 

[Jepstein30]

Generally speaking, top schools tend to focus more on student wellness and stress reduction than their lower ranked counterparts. P/F systems are designed to give students more freedom and responsibility for their own education.

In addition, top schools are in the business of producing medical researchers, policy-makers, and future leaders. Because of this they want their students to have more time available for pursuing outside interests besides studying.

At the same time, school name and prestige still plays a small but significant role in residency applications which makes it easier for top schools to get away with not having preclinical grades.

Keep in mind that most program directors focus on step 1 scores, clinical grades, LORs, and research when deciding who to interview for residency. As previously stated, preclinical grades are usually very far down the list of selection factors.

I'd assume preclinical grades still matter in terms of AOA. Is that highly considered by program directors?

 

[darkjedi]

I'd assume preclinical grades still matter in terms of AOA. Is that highly considered by program directors?

AOA can be determined by other factors, including cilinical grades. Some secretely rank, others do not, and the occassional school doesn't even do AOA (i.e. Harvard, Stanford).

 

[Jepstein30]

AOA can be determined by other factors, including cilinical grades. Some secretely rank, others do not, and the occassional school doesn't even do AOA (i.e. Harvard, Stanford).

I thought most schools use pre-clinical grades as part of their AOA requirements. Didn't really research this though.. considering its not really a reason to pick a certain school.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

Generally speaking, top schools tend to focus more on student wellness and stress reduction than their lower ranked counterparts. P/F systems are designed to give students more freedom and responsibility for their own education.

In addition, top schools are in the business of producing medical researchers, policy-makers, and future leaders. Because of this they want their students to have more time available for pursuing outside interests besides studying.

At the same time, school name and prestige still plays a small but significant role in residency applications which makes it easier for top schools to get away with not having preclinical grades.

Keep in mind that most program directors focus on step 1 scores, clinical grades, LORs, and research when deciding who to interview for residency. As previously stated, preclinical grades are usually very far down the list of selection factors.

Going to a mid-tier school, the top ones rejected me. 🙁

 

[stkjhu]

I thought most schools use pre-clinical grades as part of their AOA requirements. Didn't really research this though.. considering its not really a reason to pick a certain school.

I think schools that do use pre-clinical grades as part of AOA have it weighted so that the clinical grades are worth wayyy more.

 

[SilverCat]

For someone like me, a P/F system might encourage procrastination and laziness, since I know that all I have to do is pass. Does this happen at P/F schools?

I'm also just not buying this 'preclinical grades don't really matter' spiel. I know pre-clinical grades are not considered important for residency, but I have heard over and over again that the most important factor for Step 1 is your understanding of preclinical coursework. So the grades alone may not matter, but the implication they have concerning your mastery of material does.

By the by, what's the difference between junior AOA and senior AOA?

 

[Kahreek]

I have this theory that it is all about easing professors task, so they can spend more time publishing and stuff.

 

[Kahreek]

Generally speaking, top schools tend to focus more on student wellness and stress reduction than their lower ranked counterparts. P/F systems are designed to give students more freedom and responsibility for their own education.

In addition, top schools are in the business of producing medical researchers, policy-makers, and future leaders. Because of this they want their students to have more time available for pursuing outside interests besides studying.

At the same time, school name and prestige still plays a small but significant role in residency applications which makes it easier for top schools to get away with not having preclinical grades.

Keep in mind that most program directors focus on step 1 scores, clinical grades, LORs, and research when deciding who to interview for residency. As previously stated, preclinical grades are usually very far down the list of selection factors.

ohh world is a beautiful place for a few selected. indeed

many schools believe that it affords more benefit to the students to foster that sense of cooperation rather than competition.

All the sudden top tier privates become communist, what a twist.

 

[ZezKaiEll]

It's a conspiracy to soften up the biggest of the gunners in order for them to become more open to entering less competitive fields like primary care.

 

[yehhhboiii]

It's a conspiracy to soften up the biggest of the gunners in order for them to become more open to entering less competitive fields like primary care.

more like helps stop the biggest of the gunners from sabotaging others (whether directly or indirectly) which prevents other people from becoming more open to entering less competitive fields

 

[Ost3oclast]

more like helps stop the biggest of the gunners from sabotaging others (whether directly or indirectly) which prevents other people from becoming more open to entering less competitive fields

Aka....the crazies