Why is MD so much more popular than DO?

[ichor]

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I've done a search, and what I've concluded is that:

1. DO's have to take one more class than MD's
2. More people are MD's
3. Both have the same doctor career paths available to them

So then, why is MD so much more popular than DO? Why is the pre-MD forum huge compared to the pre-DO forum? That's what I can't figure out, even with the search function.

 

[darkjedi]

oh dear...

 

[gettheleadout]

I'm going to take this opportunity to actually list reasons!

4. The "DO" degree doesn't get you the name recognition that the "MD" degree does
5. DO's have to take both the COMLEX and USMLE to apply to ACGME residencies, which they want to do because...
6. AOA residency options are limited in certain fields, and there are concerns about the quality of AOA programs in general
7. All top academic residency programs are associated with MD-granting institutions
8. There is concern that some of these academic residency programs discriminate against DO applicants
9. Some OMM/OMT is complete pseudoscience and it's a bit annoying that the "extra class" in DO education covers that
10. There is a concern about real/perceived bias against DO's by other physicians/the public/whoever
11. All prestigious/well-respected medical schools grant MD degrees
12. There are for-profit US DO schools, while there are no for-profit US MD schools; accordingly there are concerns about the quality of education at places like these
13. DO schools typically have lower/much lower matriculant stat averages than MD's, which in itself can lower perceived value of the education, but also...
14. ...makes it seem like DO students attended because they weren't smart/talented/hard-working enough to get into MD schools (which isn't necessarily the case, but often is)
15. The osteopathic philosophy A.T. Still espoused is defunct, and with it any practical differences between the goals/methods of osteopathic vs. "allopathic" medical education, which means...
16. Eventually the programs (AOA and ACGME) will be fused and the degrees reduced almost certainly to a universal "MD" degree (see #4)
17. Some DO programs require a non-refundable deposit prior to matriculation, while I've never heard of this with MD schools
18. DO schools are often more expensive in general
19. In addition to what's covered in #5-8, the majority of DO students enter primary care fields, and besides that fact...
20. Simply coming from a DO school statistically puts you at a significant disadvantage in matching to competitive residency fields.

That enough?

Edit 6/12/15: Really late edit but I don't want to bump the thread. @TreadLightly below hasn't posted in almost a year as of this edit, but to address his/her concern about point #16, I'm referring to long-term inevitability. The US medical community has recognized that two GME systems is counterproductive and unneccesary, and eventually the same will be seen for having two medical education paths.

 

[Apoplexy__]

I'm going to take this opportunity to actually list reasons!

Well said. Additionally:

-MDs have been around for longer; DOs have only been around since 1874
-DOs don't have practicing rights in some countries
-DO schools have fewer research opportunities in general, in concordance with their focus on producing primary-care physicians
-Any bias against DOs that exists is perpetuated by 1. DOs that desperately cling to the couple things in OMM that are pseudoscience in order to maintain their identity 2. Old MDs that recall a time before DOs were MD equivalents 3. Pre-meds that are concerned about the difference

 

[SunsFun]

I'm going to take this opportunity to actually list reasons!

4. The "DO" degree doesn't get you the name recognition that the "MD" degree does
5. DO's have to take both the COMLEX and USMLE to apply to ACGME residencies, which they want to do because...
6. AOA residency options are limited in certain fields, and there are concerns about the quality of AOA programs in general
7. All top academic residency programs are associated with MD-granting institutions
8. There is concern that some of these academic residency programs discriminate against DO applicants
9. Some OMM/OMT is complete pseudoscience and it's a bit annoying that the "extra class" in DO education covers that
10. There is a concern about real/perceived bias against DO's by other physicians/the public/whoever
11. All prestigious/well-respected medical schools grant MD degrees
12. There are for-profit US DO schools, while there are no for-profit US MD schools; accordingly there are concerns about the quality of education at places like these
13. DO schools typically have lower/much lower matriculant stat averages than MD's, which in itself can lower perceived value of the education, but also...
14. ...makes it seem like DO students attended because they weren't smart/talented/hard-working enough to get into MD schools (which isn't necessarily the case, but often is)
15. The osteopathic philosophy A.T. Still espoused is defunct, and with it any practical differences between the goals/methods of osteopathic vs. "allopathic" medical education, which means...
16. Eventually the programs (AOA and ACGME) will be fused and the degrees reduced almost certainly to a universal "MD" degree (see #4)
17. Some DO programs require a non-refundable deposit prior to matriculation, while I've never heard of this with MD schools
18. DO schools are often more expensive in general
19. In addition to what's covered in #5-8, the majority of DO students enter primary care fields, and besides that fact...
20. Simply coming from a DO school statistically puts you at a significant disadvantage in matching to competitive residency fields.

That enough?

Sorry to derail but would you be able to elaborate about A.T. Still? I've heard they have unusual curriculum but don't know much about it.

 

[MDOnlyWillDo]

Can I add:

-There are no non-US equivalents to the DO degree, but there are international MD equivalents, leading to discussions about it being "less" than MD.

 

[gettheleadout]

Well said. Additionally:

-MDs have been around for longer; DOs have only been around since 1874
-DOs don't have practicing rights in some countries
-DO schools have fewer research opportunities in general, in concordance with their focus on producing primary-care physicians
-Any bias against DOs that exists is perpetuated by 1. DOs that desperately cling to the couple things in OMM that are pseudoscience in order to maintain their identity 2. Old MDs that recall a time before DOs were MD equivalents 3. Pre-meds that are concerned about the difference

These are excellent additions and in particular I agree with the importance of the bolded. With regard to the "desperate clinging," the AOA's stubbornness about remaining relevant makes them look bad to both the sane DO's out there practicing and the MD's that don't buy the AOA's propaganda (which I assume means 100% of MD's).

Sorry to derail but would you be able to elaborate about A.T. Still? I've heard they have unusual curriculum but don't know much about it.

What I mean is that A.T. Still founded the practice of osteopathic medicine as a response to what he saw as shortcomings of allopathic medicine, but in modern medical practice treatment methodologies don't vary based on the practitioner's "philosophy of medicine," which is a result of the advent of evidence-based medicine. Maybe back when Still was around there was a difference between how MD's treated and how he might "consider the whole patient," but nowadays there isn't and there's no reason to have to educational pipelines.

 

[TreadLightly]

Sorry to derail but would you be able to elaborate about A.T. Still? I've heard they have unusual curriculum but don't know much about it.

Guy that thought injecting people with mercury was maybe a bad idea, proceeded to crack bones instead.

 

[gettheleadout]

Can I add:

-There are no non-US equivalents to the DO degree, but there are international MD equivalents, leading to discussions about it being "less" than MD.

An excellent addition!

Interestingly, "osteopathy" exists as an independent field of quackery/pseudoscience outside of the US (e.g. the UK) and practitioners have degrees in osteopathy.

 

[IslandStyle808]

This is one of the biggest reasons:

-There are more residency programs and far more fellowship programs on the MD side than the DO side (factor that into ACGME residencies more selective for MD students).

 

[karayaa]

I´ve heard that DO training is more holistic-biopsychosocial, but that might be due to another difference, which is that DO programs are usually community-based rather than affiliated with a teaching hospital.

 

[Elevencents]

I'd say its safe to assume a lot of MD applicants don't even know what a DO is.

 

[Apoplexy__]

Guy that thought injecting people with mercury was maybe a bad idea, proceeded to crack bones instead.

I do think comparisons like this are a little unfair. Compared to modern medicine, anything back around that time is nuts. We're talking urine enemas, blood-letting, vibrators for "female hysteria", lobotomies, etc. etc. Obviously, MDs were doing mercury treatments too.

 

[Haxx]

I'd say its safe to assume a lot of MD applicants don't even know what a DO is.

I don't know if that was intended to be a slam on DO's or Pre-MD's...

 

[touchpause13]

 

[deleted407021]

In terms of popularity? Well, there are like 141 allopathic programs and only 29 osteopathic ones, so that might make one more popular over the other.

 

[Apoplexy__]

(post no longer relevant)

 

[Haxx]

Dude, aren't you pre-med? No need to be so offended...Unrustle your jimmies and realize that the discussion was civil before you changed that. This thread so far has been DO students and MD students peacefully providing objective information for the education of pre-meds, which was really nice.

Jimmy-rustling is the foundation that SDN is built upon, unfortunately.

 

[Lucca]

16. Eventually the programs (AOA and ACGME) will be fused and the degrees reduced almost certainly to a universal "MD" degree (see #4)

What in the world, did you just make this up yourself?

No. AOA + ACGME "Unified Accreditation System"

Nothing definitive yet, but the gears are churning.

 

[Syndicate]

These are all valid points but I think the most important reason MD is more popular/desirable than DO is because the public perceives MD's as superior. The societal image of a MD is just "grander" than that of a DO. Heck, a lot of people in the US probably don't even know what a DO is or what it stands for or that DO's are actually doctors. However, I guarantee you that everyone knows that MD = doctor. Also, if you look at the most famous doctors in the US, they are all MD's:

To name a few,

Acting Surgeon General: Boris Lushniak, M.D.
Renown Pediatric Neurosurgeon: Benjamin Carson, M.D.
Famous NFL Orthopedic Surgeon: James Andrews, M.D.

 

[gettheleadout]

9. Some OMM/OMT is complete pseudoscience and it's a bit annoying that the "extra class" in DO education covers that

just because you don't believe in OMM/OMT doesn't make it a "pseudoscience". There are plenty of people from around the "world" believes it.

I really hope this isn't your attitude toward therapeutic value. Cranial OMM is absolute crap, no matter how many people believe in it.

You're clearly acting as an apologist here in general so let me just say I'm not interested in arguing. If you want to justify a DO to yourself or whomever that's fine, but you're reading too much into what I've said (just look at how disproportionate/misunderstanding your responses are to the items on my list).

 

[Elevencents]

I don't know if that was intended to be a slam on DO's or Pre-MD's...

Not a slam on anyone. It's an honest observation.

ETA: Just by numbers alone MD's far out weigh DO's.

As of 2010: 550,000 MD's (750,000 if you include IMG's) to 55,000 DO's. Almost a 15:1 difference.

 

[foot2foot]

D.O.'s are great physicians, so if you're worried about being respected amongst your fellow colleagues shame on them. Where I use to work both seemed very equal. D.O.'s become popular to the patient they're taking care of and that's all that matters.

 

[Syndicate]

So famous, I've only heard of James Andrews...

And to counter your point, a lot of people who are treated by physicians with a D.O. probably don't realize it.

BTW, Phog Allen (of Kansas Jayhawks fame) was a D.O. 😉

Well your knowledge must be very limited if you have never even heard of Benjamin Carson..

There are famous DOs but there are a lot more famous MDs and the statistics someone provided above shows it.

 

[TreadLightly]

I do think comparisons like this are a little unfair. Compared to modern medicine, anything back around that time is nuts. We're talking urine enemas, blood-letting, vibrators for "female hysteria", lobotomies, etc. etc. Obviously, MDs were doing mercury treatments too.

DOs didn't exist/weren't licensed to practice medicine during that time. I don't think it was until the 50's that they started to practice medicine as they do now, so it was mostly OMM type stuff up until recently.

 

[TreadLightly]

16. Eventually the programs (AOA and ACGME) will be fused and the degrees reduced almost certainly to a universal "MD" degree (see #4)

Um, what?

The AOA and AACOM announced during the AOA’s Annual Business Meeting, held July 16-21, 2013, that to date they have been unsuccessful in reaching an agreement with ACGME on a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) for a unified graduate medical education accreditation system.

...The requirements, which will limit the ability of interns and residents in AOA-approved residency programs to transfer into ACGME residency and fellowship programs, had been scheduled to go into effect on July 1, 2015.

Source: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx

This is pertaining only to residencies and you can see that any unified residency accreditation system is far off and unlikely. Unification of degrees is almost certainly never going to happen.

 

[Mad Jack]

 

[SunsFun]

Um, what?





Source: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Pages/ACGME-single-accreditation-system.aspx

This is pertaining only to residencies and you can see that any unified residency accreditation system is far off and unlikely. Unification of degrees is almost certainly never going to happen.

I think this rule mighty actually speed up the unification. This is a really bad news for DOs no matter how you slice it. Not being able to do allopathic fellowship after doing IM residency is going to sting.

 

[The Buff OP]

I'm going to take this opportunity to actually list reasons!

4. The "DO" degree doesn't get you the name recognition that the "MD" degree does
5. DO's have to take both the COMLEX and USMLE to apply to ACGME residencies, which they want to do because...
6. AOA residency options are limited in certain fields, and there are concerns about the quality of AOA programs in general
7. All top academic residency programs are associated with MD-granting institutions
8. There is concern that some of these academic residency programs discriminate against DO applicants
9. Some OMM/OMT is complete pseudoscience and it's a bit annoying that the "extra class" in DO education covers that
10. There is a concern about real/perceived bias against DO's by other physicians/the public/whoever
11. All prestigious/well-respected medical schools grant MD degrees
12. There are for-profit US DO schools, while there are no for-profit US MD schools; accordingly there are concerns about the quality of education at places like these
13. DO schools typically have lower/much lower matriculant stat averages than MD's, which in itself can lower perceived value of the education, but also...
14. ...makes it seem like DO students attended because they weren't smart/talented/hard-working enough to get into MD schools (which isn't necessarily the case, but often is)
15. The osteopathic philosophy A.T. Still espoused is defunct, and with it any practical differences between the goals/methods of osteopathic vs. "allopathic" medical education, which means...
16. Eventually the programs (AOA and ACGME) will be fused and the degrees reduced almost certainly to a universal "MD" degree (see #4)
17. Some DO programs require a non-refundable deposit prior to matriculation, while I've never heard of this with MD schools
18. DO schools are often more expensive in general
19. In addition to what's covered in #5-8, the majority of DO students enter primary care fields, and besides that fact...
20. Simply coming from a DO school statistically puts you at a significant disadvantage in matching to competitive residency fields.

That enough?

 

[TreadLightly]

I think this rule mighty actually speed up the unification. This is a really bad news for DOs no matter how you slice it. Not being able to do allopathic fellowship after doing IM residency is going to sting.

You can but you would have needed to do an ACGME residency. Even then, it's still hard apparently. It's possible that soon you will be able to enter an ACGME fellowship after an AOA residency, but lets see how that works. I don't think anyone really knows what this is going to look like by the time we graduate and that's the worst part.

 

[EvenStevens]

oh dear...

exactly what i thought.
DO threads are always a nice place to find laughs

 

[dudeliness]

DOs didn't exist/weren't licensed to practice medicine during that time. I don't think it was until the 50's that they started to practice medicine as they do now, so it was mostly OMM type stuff up until recently.

Actually DOs were first officially "licensed" back in the late 1800s. Back when you didn't need much of anything to have an accredited school. The osteopathic philosophy began including more elements of modern medicine, such as prescription drugs and surgery as early as the beginning of the 20th century. So it was about 40 years earlier than the 50's when we started to "practice medicine as (we) do now".

I will agree that it's unfortunate that there hasn't been more quality research into the efficacy of OMM/OMT. There are parts of it that are B.S. but there are plenty of other aspects of OMM/OMT that are truly beneficial to a patient, or at least as beneficial as painkillers/physical therapy.

 

[KnuxNole]

I've done a search, and what I've concluded is that:

1. DO's have to take one more class than MD's
2. More people are MD's
3. Both have the same doctor career paths available to them

So then, why is MD so much more popular than DO? Why is the pre-MD forum huge compared to the pre-DO forum? That's what I can't figure out, even with the search function.

Did your search function break or something?

 

[Mad Jack]

Did your search function break or something?

Did the search function ever work or something?

 

[KnuxNole]

Did the search function ever work or something?

It worked before D:

 

[knv2u]

16. Eventually the programs (AOA and ACGME) will be fused and the degrees reduced almost certainly to a universal "MD" degree (see #4)

Has this been proposed or is this speculation? I'm asking not to question whether you are correct, but because I am not informed enough on the topic to know the answer.

Edited: Oops! I didn't read through all of the comments before posting; someone else addressed this.