Why is the hourly rate so much higher for EM jobs than hospitalist jobs?

[YCAGA]

Big disclaimer: I would be happy to be proven wrong on this fact if someone has more reliable data than I have been able to find. I have cobbled together my picture of EM and IM hourly rates from forum posts, old MGMA data, and survey data.

It seems like the average hourly rate in the Midwest and South for EM is about $210-240/hr ($350k-$400k/yr for 140hrs/month) and for IM about $140-$170/hr ($300k/yr for 160 to 182hrs/month). Those are the regions I am interested in and it simplifies it somewhat to exclude the West Coast and the Northeast because their big city salaries can be so low. If we peg it at $225/hr and $150/hr...that’s 50% more per hour!!!

I am interested in the economic and business reasons why EM makes more per hour than inpatient IM. Things like billing (RVUs/hr?), making the hospital money versus costing the hospital money, overhead, extra money from midlevels...that sort of thing. Reasons I have ruled out:

“EM is more stressful than IM”—Plenty of less stressful fields make more money than EM so there doesn’t seem to be a great correlation in medicine between stress and higher pay.

“EM works nights”—IM nocturnists barely approach $200/hr at busy hospitals and they *only* work nights.

Why am I curious? Everyone is talking about how EM is going to be making peanuts in the coming decade because of all the residencies being added. So, I’m wondering what components of our healthcare system have made EM earn $200+/hr. From what I can tell, hospitalists are in higher demand than EM so it is not simply supply and demand.

Taking this all one step further, what would have to change for EM to be paid at levels closer to inpatient IM? EM seems worth it to me at $200+/hr. At $150/hr...not so much.

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[DeadCactus]

In short: Procedures and supply/demand. The latter is worsening and so salaries are approaching IM salaries but will likely remain higher.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Big disclaimer: I would be happy to be proven wrong on this fact if someone has more reliable data than I have been able to find. I have cobbled together my picture of EM and IM hourly rates from forum posts, old MGMA data, and survey data.

It seems like the average hourly rate in the Midwest and South for EM is about $210-240/hr ($350k-$400k/yr for 140hrs/month) and for IM about $140-$170/hr ($300k/yr for 160 to 182hrs/month). Those are the regions I am interested in and it simplifies it somewhat to exclude the West Coast and the Northeast because their big city salaries can be so low. If we peg it at $225/hr and $150/hr...that’s 50% more per hour!!!

I am interested in the economic and business reasons why EM makes more per hour than inpatient IM. Things like billing (RVUs/hr?), making the hospital money versus costing the hospital money, overhead, extra money from midlevels...that sort of thing. Reasons I have ruled out:

“EM is more stressful than IM”—Plenty of less stressful fields make more money than EM so there doesn’t seem to be a great correlation in medicine between stress and higher pay.

“EM works nights”—IM nocturnists barely approach $200/hr at busy hospitals and they *only* work nights.

Why am I curious? Everyone is talking about how EM is going to be making peanuts in the coming decade because of all the residencies being added. So, I’m wondering what components of our healthcare system have made EM earn $200+/hr. From what I can tell, hospitalists are in higher demand than EM so it is not simply supply and demand.

Taking this all one step further, what would have to change for EM to be paid at levels closer to inpatient IM? EM seems worth it to me at $200+/hr. At $150/hr...not so much.

An EM night doc can easily see 20-30 patients in a shift. So think about the average revenue generated per patient and there’s a lot of your answer.

 

[oldtown]

An EM night doc can easily see 20-30 patients in a shift. So think about the average revenue generated per patient and there’s a lot of your answer.

This. A ER shift is densely packed with revenue generating activities. You are constantly seeing new patients, documenting, doing procedures, dispositioning patients, etc.

Hospitalists are busy too (definitely not trying to minimize that), but the H&P’s take longer, subsequent patient encounters take longer. Procedures are minimal. A lot of time is spent counseling patients, discussing with families, coordinating discharge planning, discussing with social workers, dieticians, and other ancillary services that are the cost of doing business rather than revenue generating.

Also, insurance typically pays more for Emergency care because, well, it’s emergent- with vast resources available 24/7. Same way that a plumber charges a lot more for an after hours emergency than for a scheduled appointment.

 

[namethatsmell]

If you read enough on the forum you'll come across the proposition that 1hr of EM work = 1.5 hours of pretty much anything. It's hard to find another job that out-does EM in terms of the combination of high density of decision making+physical intesity+emotional burden+frenetic pace. The shift work also takes a toll. And then working conditions widely very depending on if you're: well-staffed, have humane patients, have decent hospitalists/consultants, non-toxic admins, etc.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Hospitalists don’t see ICU patients don’t have to deal with transfering undifferentiated patients. If they don’t get any admissions (which unless you are RVU you hate) you work on discharging and doing things like social issues which don’t reimburse.

 

[RustedFox]

Because we're in it for teh lolz.

 

[JacobMcCandles]

RVUs.

 

[wamcp]

Big disclaimer: I would be happy to be proven wrong on this fact if someone has more reliable data than I have been able to find. I have cobbled together my picture of EM and IM hourly rates from forum posts, old MGMA data, and survey data.

It seems like the average hourly rate in the Midwest and South for EM is about $210-240/hr ($350k-$400k/yr for 140hrs/month) and for IM about $140-$170/hr ($300k/yr for 160 to 182hrs/month). Those are the regions I am interested in and it simplifies it somewhat to exclude the West Coast and the Northeast because their big city salaries can be so low. If we peg it at $225/hr and $150/hr...that’s 50% more per hour!!!

I am interested in the economic and business reasons why EM makes more per hour than inpatient IM. Things like billing (RVUs/hr?), making the hospital money versus costing the hospital money, overhead, extra money from midlevels...that sort of thing. Reasons I have ruled out:

“EM is more stressful than IM”—Plenty of less stressful fields make more money than EM so there doesn’t seem to be a great correlation in medicine between stress and higher pay.

“EM works nights”—IM nocturnists barely approach $200/hr at busy hospitals and they *only* work nights.

Why am I curious? Everyone is talking about how EM is going to be making peanuts in the coming decade because of all the residencies being added. So, I’m wondering what components of our healthcare system have made EM earn $200+/hr. From what I can tell, hospitalists are in higher demand than EM so it is not simply supply and demand.

Taking this all one step further, what would have to change for EM to be paid at levels closer to inpatient IM? EM seems worth it to me at $200+/hr. At $150/hr...not so much.

It’s highly variable. I used to work an academic center (in boston) and was paid garbage, essentially $100/hr, although nonteaching rounding census was capped at 10/day

As a community based hospitalist (nocturnist) i see maybe 6-8 admissions in a 12 hour night, midlevel handles xcover pages, closed icu, no procedures, and get $170/hr at my full time W2/benefits job. 30 minute drive from downtown >1 mil pop city. Internal moonlighting pay rate is a little over $200/hr.

Then i also get $250-300/hr when moonlighting at another hospital (yes it is unicorn pay, it is not the norm, but it exists)

ER buddies downstairs get paid more but are seeing 2-3 undifferentiated pt an hour, do procedures, handle critical care level stuff, have to know trauma/peds/ob gyn crap that I don’t care about.

I have much respect to ER docs. You have to pay me $500/hr to do what they do.

 

[GeneralVeers]

It’s highly variable. I used to work an academic center (in boston) and was paid garbage, essentially $100/hr, although nonteaching rounding census was capped at 10/day

As a community based hospitalist (nocturnist) i see maybe 6-8 admissions in a 12 hour night, midlevel handles xcover pages, closed icu, no procedures, and get $170/hr at my full time W2/benefits job. 30 minute drive from downtown >1 mil pop city. Internal moonlighting pay rate is a little over $200/hr.

Then i also get $250-300/hr when moonlighting at another hospital (yes it is unicorn pay, it is not the norm, but it exists)

ER buddies downstairs get paid more but are seeing 2-3 undifferentiated pt an hour, do procedures, handle critical care level stuff, have to know trauma/peds/ob gyn crap that I don’t care about.

I have much respect to ER docs. You have to pay me $500/hr to do what they do.

Sad fact is that $500/hr used to be out there. Not anymore.

 

[emergentmd]

ahh the days of 650/hr....... dreams of busting my butt x 1 yr, 20-12 hr shift a month making 1.5M/yr. I know some full timer docs prob was pulling in 1M/yr.

 

[YCAGA]

Thanks for the great replies everyone. Learning a lot.

What are people’s experiences with rural locums work? Pay, availability, flexibility, that kind of thing. I ask because I think rural work is one thing that is pretty resistant to an over-supply of physicians. Even in countries that have an over-supply of physicians (far more medical students than residency spots and attending jobs), rural medicine still pays the most and spots are always open.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Thanks for the great replies everyone. Learning a lot.

What are people’s experiences with rural locums work? Pay, availability, flexibility, that kind of thing. I ask because I think rural work is one thing that is pretty resistant to an over-supply of physicians. Even in countries that have an over-supply of physicians (far more medical students than residency spots and attending jobs), rural medicine still pays the most and spots are always open.

Rural work can be fun, but generally pays less, you have the annoyance of a commute, and you are single coverage in OB/GYN and trauma situations which can be stressful. I have worked a couple of low-volume high pay rural sites that turned out to be great temporary gigs.

 

[namethatsmell]

Thanks for the great replies everyone. Learning a lot.

What are people’s experiences with rural locums work? Pay, availability, flexibility, that kind of thing. I ask because I think rural work is one thing that is pretty resistant to an over-supply of physicians. Even in countries that have an over-supply of physicians (far more medical students than residency spots and attending jobs), rural medicine still pays the most and spots are always open.

Rural EM tends to be great. If you can find a CAH that has strong transfer agreements to a tertiary center, decent admin, and good staffing (probably less than 1.7pph)...it can be golden.

Pay tends to be all over the map, but there are some surprisingly high rates out there. However, if you're not going to live within a reasonable drive to the ED, you gotta factor in the overall amount of time spent traveling to/from work and sleeping away from home which can tank your overall hourly rate.

 

[YCAGA]

Rural work can be fun, but generally pays less, you have the annoyance of a commute, and you are single coverage in OB/GYN and trauma situations which can be stressful. I have worked a couple of low-volume high pay rural sites that turned out to be great temporary gigs.

Gotcha, good to know. Single coverage OB/GYN and trauma sounds stressful, but I guess that’s even more of a reason to make sure you go to a good residency—not some CMG one that barely hits the minimum requirements (I think this is a popular opinion here so hopefully I didn’t just kick a hornets nest).

I have read that while many rural gigs pay less, the less patients/hr, sometimes dramatically less, can make the hours not as hard and/or give you some time to work on side gigs to increase your net hourly rate while in BFE.

 

[YCAGA]

Rural EM tends to be great. If you can find a CAH that has strong transfer agreements to a tertiary center, decent admin, and good staffing (probably less than 1.7pph)...it can be golden.

Pay tends to be all over the map, but there are some surprisingly high rates out there. However, if you're not going to live within a reasonable drive to the ED, you gotta factor in the overall amount of time spent traveling to/from work and sleeping away from home which can tank your overall hourly rate.

Solution: just go full stereotypical EM doctor and get your private pilots license to fly from gig to gig. You’ll probably end up losing money doing this but at least it sounds cool AF. No need to save for retirement if you do some scuba diving and high altitude mountaineering on your days off.

 

[Mad Jack]

Solution: just go full stereotypical EM doctor and get your private pilots license to fly from gig to gig. You’ll probably end up losing money doing this but at least it sounds cool AF. No need to save for retirement if you do some scuba diving and high altitude mountaineering on your days off.

Death is a simple and effective retirement plan

 

[EMhawkeye]

Solution: just go full stereotypical EM doctor and get your private pilots license to fly from gig to gig. You’ll probably end up losing money doing this but at least it sounds cool AF. No need to save for retirement if you do some scuba diving and high altitude mountaineering on your days off.

Yep just lost one of my fellow attendings. Flew to the job despite being an hour drive away, at night, no instruments.

 

[YCAGA]

Yep just lost one of my fellow attendings. Flew to the job despite being an hour drive away, at night, no instruments.

****, sorry to hear that. Visual Flight Rules (VFR) at night is an oxymoron in my opinion. Night VFR being legal with just a PPL and no instrument rating is terrifying to me...gets a lot of people killed needlessly.

 

[BoardingDoc]

****, sorry to hear that. Visual Flight Rules (VFR) at night is an oxymoron in my opinion. Night VFR being legal with just a PPL and no instrument rating is terrifying to me...gets a lot of people killed needlessly.

I have never understood why a person who is interested enough in becoming a pilot would ever settle for strictly obtaining a VFR rating and not put in the extra ~40 hrs to get an IFR. Yeah, it costs money and time, but I'd rather not perform a controlled flight into terrain TYVM.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

So many doctors die from private flying it’s crazy.

 

[RustedFox]

If you read enough on the forum you'll come across the proposition that 1hr of EM work = 1.5 hours of pretty much anything. It's hard to find another job that out-does EM in terms of the combination of high density of decision making+physical intesity+emotional burden+frenetic pace. The shift work also takes a toll. And then working conditions widely very depending on if you're: well-staffed, have humane patients, have decent hospitalists/consultants, non-toxic admins, etc.

This is known around the world as the "Birdstrike Multiplier".

 

[RoyBasch]

Solution: just go full stereotypical EM doctor and get your private pilots license to fly from gig to gig. You’ll probably end up losing money doing this but at least it sounds cool AF. No need to save for retirement if you do some scuba diving and high altitude mountaineering on your days off.

When I used to work for a CMG, I very peripherally knew a guy who was one of their internal locums/fire fighter people who did this. Flew his own small plane to various sites across the country. Guy was a workaholic and did a lot of shifts. He had years where he knocked down $800k-$1MM. Not sure now that rates are lower. Obviously planes are super expensive and this probably ultimately isn't a money-making strategy, but if you like to fly and you like to medicine, its pretty cool.

 

[RoyBasch]

So do ICU only (not pulm) docs make the same as EM docs? They’re also billing critical care time but don’t see as many patients

The salary outlook for pulm/CCM is similar to EM. Some can make more depending how big their pulmonary practice is (bronchs=money). Also sleep used to be a big money maker (although this is changing and sleep studies are being farmed out to 3rd parties).

Unfortunately if you are EM base boarded, you can only do CCM alone, not pulm/CCM, so you do not have access to the revenue streams available to pulm/CCM I mentioned above. Switching to CCM is generally not going to be more lucrative than being an industrious ER physician (more shifts, build to partnership in a practice, etc.)

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

The salary outlook for pulm/CCM is similar to EM. Some can make more depending how big their pulmonary practice is (bronchs=money). Also sleep used to be a big money maker (although this is changing and sleep studies are being farmed out to 3rd parties).

Unfortunately if you are EM base boarded, you can only do CCM alone, not pulm/CCM, so you do not have access to the revenue streams available to pulm/CCM I mentioned above. Switching to CCM is generally not going to be more lucrative than being an industrious ER physician (more shifts, build to partnership in a practice, etc.)

Doing ICU as a resident now. It’s a nice cognitive break. It’s cool to actually be the specialist in a field and get to make some definitive management decisions. The palliative aspect is nice too, provides some emotional context we don’t get in the ED.

Terrible financial justification. But if you like it, it’s cool and I can see how it’d provide some career longevity.

 

[namethatsmell]

This is known around the world as the "Birdstrike Multiplier".

Ah yes, you're totally right. Should "Birdstrike Multiplier" be on a coffee mug, a bumper sticker, or both?

 

[RustedFox]

Ah yes, you're totally right. Should "Birdstrike Multiplier" be on a coffee mug, a bumper sticker, or both?

Neither; its just a part of the lore that I suspect will never die on here.

"Birdstrike Multiplier"
"Fatty McFattyPants"

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

This is known around the world as the "Birdstrike Multiplier".

I have an uncle in urology. He once asked how many hours EPs work per week, then scoffed at my answer. Really hammed it up.

I Asked if he’d work a 12 hour ED shift for $200/hour? No? That sounds awful? Really?

I rest my case.

 

[namethatsmell]

Doing ICU as a resident now. It’s a nice cognitive break. It’s cool to actually be the specialist in a field and get to make some definitive management decisions. The palliative aspect is nice too, provides some emotional context we don’t get in the ED.

Terrible financial justification. But if you like it, it’s cool and I can see how it’d provide some career longevity.

If taking 2 years to train in CC lets you be happier at work, which leads to a longer career...it's a great financial decision.

And the short-medium term outlook of CC is not nearly as gloomy as EM.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

If taking 2 years to train in CC lets you be happier at work, which leads to a longer career...it's a great financial decision.

And the short-medium term outlook of CC is not nearly as gloomy as EM.

Yea I may end up doing it. Minimal debt, physician wife, academics is cool, etc.

Enjoying work is cool.

 

[YCAGA]

Yea I may end up doing it. Minimal debt, physician wife, academics is cool, etc.

Enjoying work is cool.

Just going off MGMA the financial hit isn’t too big, is it? And CC still allows shift work and lots of time off which draws many people to EM. I remember a post from a CC doc that worked 7 12s a month and made $200k a year, albeit in a small Midwestern town. Lots of hobbies you can get into with 3 weeks vacation a month and $200k is plenty once you are out of debt, especially if your partner works at least part-time (my partner is a med student too so this is my dream setup).

 

[Rekt]

Just going off MGMA the financial hit isn’t too big, is it? And CC still allows shift work and lots of time off which draws many people to EM. I remember a post from a CC doc that worked 7 12s a month and made $200k a year, albeit in a small Midwestern town. Lots of hobbies you can get into with 3 weeks vacation a month and $200k is plenty once you are out of debt, especially if your partner works at least part-time (my partner is a med student too so this is my dream setup).

I mean, zero dollars per hour unemployed in EM vs 400k as ccm? Not a very tough decision.

 

[NITRAS]

So do ICU only (not pulm) docs make the same as EM docs? They’re also billing critical care time but don’t see as many patients

Schedules are really different for ICU docs vs. EM docs.

EM docs have benefited from being a high demand/low supply field for that sees lots of patients and does plenty of small procedures that was overall pretty well compensated. The supply of EM docs is catching up, and I think they will see their compensation drop towards the upper end of IM compensation.

 

[YCAGA]

I mean, zero dollars per hour unemployed in EM vs 400k as ccm? Not a very tough decision.

Touche...

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Neither; its just a part of the lore that I suspect will never die on here.

"Birdstrike Multiplier"
"Fatty McFattyPants"

And you're too modest to add another classic:

"Jenny McJennerson"

 

[Frazier]

Every day I sit in my office between patients and sip my coffee, check my email, videochat my kids, maybe do a band workout, enjoy the silence between intermittent bouts of pandora folk radio humming in the periphery -- and truly appreciate that the modern EM doc is underpaid.

In the ED, we have to fight tooth and nail for the priviledge to take 10 seconds for a sip of 8-hour old energy drink sitting the the communal "hydration station". Probably get interrupted at least twice during that 10 seconds to sign an EKG or pick up a new chart.

OP, they are paid more per hour (or should be) because the work is grueling, thankless, and unrelenting.

There is no other field in medicine like emergency medicine.

 

[YCAGA]

Every day I sit in my office between patients and sip my coffee, check my email, videochat my kids, maybe do a band workout, enjoy the silence between intermittent bouts of pandora folk radio humming in the periphery -- and truly appreciate that the modern EM doc is underpaid.

In the ED, we have to fight tooth and nail for the priviledge to take 10 seconds for a sip of 8-hour old energy drink sitting the the communal "hydration station". Probably get interrupted at least twice during that 10 seconds to sign an EKG or pick up a new chart.

OP, they are paid more per hour (or should be) because the work is grueling, thankless, and unrelenting.

There is no other field in medicine like emergency medicine.

If only “should” be paid a lot was how it worked in the real world. Unfortunately grueling and stressful work often doesn’t equal good pay in medicine, or really any field.

 

[Splenda88]

If only “should” be paid a lot was how it worked in the real world. Unfortunately grueling and stressful work often doesn’t equal good pay in medicine, or really any field.

We, in the healthcare industry, think we are the only ones that work hard. People in order industries work hard but make peanuts compared to what docs make...

 

[turkeyjerky]

We, in the healthcare industry, think we are the only ones that work hard. People in order industries work hard but make peanuts compared to what docs make...

Dude....

Sure, line cooks and Amazon warehouse employees work their ass off, but soooooo many white collar workers barely show up. My brother in law makes six figures for a Fortune 500 company. One time he was ‘working’ remotely during a weeklong family vacation-this consisted of him calling in for 1-2 hours of meetings per day.

Yeah, I might make 2-3X what he does for less total hours, but I don’t feel bad for a second.

you should ask to shadow your hospital’s ceo for a day

 

[Splenda88]

Dude....

Sure, line cooks and Amazon warehouse employees work their ass off, but soooooo many white collar workers barely show up. My brother in law makes six figures for a Fortune 500 company. One time he was ‘working’ remotely during a weeklong family vacation-this consisted of him calling in for 1-2 hours of meetings per day.

Yeah, I might make 2-3X what he does for less total hours, but I don’t feel bad for a second.

you should ask to shadow your hospital’s ceo for a day

I agree that we work hard, but I often see posts in SDN perpetuating that myth that people in other industries just sit around twerking their index finger and make 6-figure salary.

 

[turkeyjerky]

I agree that we work hard, but I often see posts in SDN perpetuating that myth that people in other industries just sit around twerking their index finger and make 6-figure salary.

Show me a career w/ an equivalent workload combined with our level of education and training.

 

[partypantss]

Dude....

Sure, line cooks and Amazon warehouse employees work their ass off, but soooooo many white collar workers barely show up. My brother in law makes six figures for a Fortune 500 company. One time he was ‘working’ remotely during a weeklong family vacation-this consisted of him calling in for 1-2 hours of meetings per day.

Yeah, I might make 2-3X what he does for less total hours, but I don’t feel bad for a second.

you should ask to shadow your hospital’s ceo for a day

I think you're missing the point though. The point is that working hard does not = more pay. There are plenty of blue collar workers that might work their asses off in crap conditions for lots of hours and still make relatively very little. Pointing out jobs where you don't do jack and make a lot is exactly proving the other person's point lol. The point is, just because one specialty seems like it SHOULD make more than another due to it being harder/ more demanding/ stressful/ whatever, doesn't mean it will. The free market and healthcare policy determine what each specialty makes. We are not just a simple meritocracy.

 

[DocEspana]

Its the badass tax the employers have to pay.

 

[YCAGA]

Dude....

Sure, line cooks and Amazon warehouse employees work their ass off, but soooooo many white collar workers barely show up. My brother in law makes six figures for a Fortune 500 company. One time he was ‘working’ remotely during a weeklong family vacation-this consisted of him calling in for 1-2 hours of meetings per day.

Yeah, I might make 2-3X what he does for less total hours, but I don’t feel bad for a second.

you should ask to shadow your hospital’s ceo for a day

And some dermatologists work 9-3 and make $400k a year. Doesn’t mean that is typical and you can make generalizations about all doctors from that lifestyle.

 

[YCAGA]

Show me a career w/ an equivalent workload combined with our level of education and training.

Pilots for the major airlines get close. And they have to work for 20+ years before they can even make the median FM outpatient salary. Getting enough fight hours to even be eligible for an ATP certificate and then the years of low pay and bad hours at a regional is comparable to medical school + residency. And you can’t tell me that being responsible for 50-400 lives isn’t comparable stress to medicine. The margin of error in aviation is arguably smaller than medicine.

 

[emergentmd]

EM docs and docs in general makes alot of money regardless of education/stress/hours. Take out the outliers on both sides and docs have the best paying jobs there is.

I don't think many of us would work in the oil fields, fishing boats, roofing, sanitation for equivalent hours/pay. I know I would never.

 

[YCAGA]

EM docs and docs in general makes alot of money regardless of education/stress/hours. Take out the outliers on both sides and docs have the best paying jobs there is.

I don't think many of us would work in the oil fields, fishing boats, roofing, sanitation for equivalent hours/pay. I know I would never.

Exactly. Doctors can get very defensive when people start talking about how highly paid they are. You can admit that you’re highly paid and also think it’s justified.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Exactly. Doctors can get very defensive when people start talking about how highly paid they are. You can admit that you’re highly paid and also think it’s justified.

The problem lies in the fact that patients can't actually see the value. In their eyes Dr. McJennyson gives great care, and is friendly at a fraction of the cost.

 

[YCAGA]

The problem lies in the fact that patients can't actually see the value. In their eyes Dr. McJennyson gives great care, and is friendly at a fraction of the cost.

Fair point, but there is a middle ground of admitting physicians are highly paid while also defending physicians' rights as the sole providers of unsupervised medical care.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Fair point, but there is a middle ground of admitting physicians are highly paid while also defending physicians' rights as the sole providers of unsupervised medical care.

Of course we are highly paid. It would be interesting to see what sorts of people would do our job for $100K per year. I'm not talking about midlevels, but 11 years of school, and dealing with all the BS.