Why isn't Pharmacy/Pharmacology a medical specialty?

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auburnO5

auburnO5

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Pharmacology seems like it should be a medical specialty, why isn't it?

Maybe do a few years of IM then go into a pharmacology residency. Seems like it would be safer for the patients, and create a lot of new jobs.
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Toxicology is a fellowship out of Emergency Medicine if that's what you're getting at. They have expertise in overdoses and ingestions of numerous other substances (eg camphor, antifreeze, etc).

As far as the interactions that arise from polypharmacy...tough to find sufficient numbers of patients to be evidenced based in many cases.
 
pharm is a component of every specialty. I cant really see how a new distinct specialty would function within the hospital or what subsets of patients it would see
 
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are you suggesting that MD's take over the role of clinical pharmacists? pharmacy is a support role similar to nursing - and even clinical pharmacists are supposed to work within the treatment plan set forth by the physician. They fill a distinct and separate role from the paradigm filled by physicians. Im just envisioning the nightmare if pharm was an MD specialty.... as a cardiologist would I then have to consult a pharmacologist before prescribing meds?
 
do EM docs have to consult cards before ordering an EKG? I assure you you can insert a Foley without a urology consult.

all I was pointing out was that clinical pharmacists have a distinct and useful role both in direct 1-on-1 patient care and as a part of an interdisciplinary care team.
 
You're going to be hard pressed to find enough people to take a support role and turn it into something more and paying them 2-3x their current salary for similar job descriptions. What more would an MD 'Pharmacologist' do that a current Pharmacist isn't, besides demand $200k for working a CVS pharmacy?
 
Some of the MDs I'm with are experts on meds... in their specialty but are idiots on meds they don't normally use. Clinical pharmacists are there to learn the ins and outs of everything medication related so your heads don't explode from the volumes of dosing information that lexi-comp doesn't hold and instead can explode from the everything else information that keeps patients alive. The only reason I can guess that this thread was created is that you do not have any experience with a clinical pharmacist. They're around, following vanc troughs and CrCl's in the dungeon, wishing they had a window like the rest of the hospital.
 
auburnO5 said:
Pharmacology seems like it should be a medical specialty, why isn't it?

Maybe do a few years of IM then go into a pharmacology residency. Seems like it would be safer for the patients, and create a lot of new jobs.
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There are fellowships in clinical pharmacology. My understanding is that they are mainly for medicine doctors, though anesthetist can enter some programs.
 
armybound said:
do EM docs have to consult cards before ordering an EKG? I assure you you can insert a Foley without a urology consult.

all I was pointing out was that clinical pharmacists have a distinct and useful role both in direct 1-on-1 patient care and as a part of an interdisciplinary care team.
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exactly. I never said that pharm was worthless to healthcare. just that i didnt see how it would operate as a medical specialty.

and yes, with troublesome EKGs EM docs will regularly consult with cardiology. It is parallel to requiring all MDs to consult with this figurative pharmacology specialty for all narcotics.
 
MD pharmacologists do exist. 95% of my pharmacology courses at Iowa were taught by MD/PhDs who ran pharmacology labs and taught pharmacology courses. There pharmacology is a subdepartment of the College of Medicine. In no way were these faculty generalized medication experts. If anything their focus was more narrow than other physicians and they could probably not tell you the generic name for Prilosec.

A PhD in pharmacology isn't sufficient to practice pharmacy in the US. Pharmacy is a related discipline that includes study of multiple pharmaceutical sciences (pharmacology, pharmaceutics, medicinal chemistry, pharmacy practice) and concentrates more on training and delivering practitioners.

We just go to school for different things. A physician could do some parts of a pharmacist's job just fine. I just don't know that they would want to spend their time doing it. And, I don't know anyone who would want to pay you to do it.
 
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bananaface said:
MD pharmacologists do exist. 95% of my pharmacology courses at Iowa were taught by MD/PhDs who ran pharmacology labs and taught pharmacology courses. There pharmacology is a subdepartment of the College of Medicine. In no way were these faculty generalized medication experts. If anything their focus was more narrow than other physicians and they could probably not tell you the generic name for Prilosec.

A PhD in pharmacology isn't sufficient to practice pharmacy in the US. Pharmacy is a related discipline that includes study of multiple pharmaceutical sciences (pharmacology, pharmaceutics, medicinal chemistry, pharmacy practice) and concentrates more on training and delivering practitioners.

We just go to school for different things. A physician could do some parts of a pharmacist's job just fine. I just don't know that they would want to spend their time doing it. And, I don't know anyone who would want to pay you to do it.
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this.
 
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bananaface said:
MD pharmacologists do exist. 95% of my pharmacology courses at Iowa were taught by MD/PhDs who ran pharmacology labs and taught pharmacology courses.
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MD pharmacologists don't exist. There's no such specialty. However, you can be an MD and also have a Ph.D in pharmacology which is what I would assume you're talking about. Calling somebody an MD pharmacologist is misleading.
 
JacobMcCandles said:
MD pharmacologists don't exist. There's no such specialty. However, you can be an MD and also have a Ph.D in pharmacology which is what I would assume you're talking about. Calling somebody an MD pharmacologist is misleading.
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I'm sorry if you felt I was unclear. But, I did specify that the MD pharmacologists that I knew were dual degree holders, not simply MDs. So, I don't believe that I implied that pharmacology was a medical specialty. I thought it was understood as a premise of this discussion that that is not the case, since that is what is asked in the OP.
 
How about dentistry?

++++++++

GREAT question.
 
Why aren't podiatrists Ortho Surgeons instead? They do the same thing, except podiatrists have grades that match their personalities while Orthos somehow aced all their tests.

/trolling
 
Untraditional said:
Why aren't podiatrists Ortho Surgeons instead? They do the same thing, except podiatrists have grades that match their personalities while Orthos somehow aced all their tests.

/trolling
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(i see the /trolling but....)

show me an ortho that removes bunions....
 
Untraditional said:
Why aren't podiatrists Ortho Surgeons instead? They do the same thing, except podiatrists have grades that match their personalities while Orthos somehow aced all their tests.

/trolling
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Podiatry and dentistry are more "medicine" than is psychiatry.

T/F?

But anyway, medical specialties, much like the health care system itself, is not exactly organized along logical lines...
 
False. Psychiatry is the medical control of psych issues. I'd say those things are more medical than psychology...
 
Specter--
Is the practice of psychiatry closer to psychology (not an MD field) or neurology (MD field)?
 
Really neither..... At least in my experience. I haven't experienced psychiatrists trying to counsel patients other than te type of counseling that all doctors do for their patients.

It just gets confused IMO because they appear to treat the same illnesses (and sometimes they do. But there are large areas where they don't overlap). it's kinda like comparing a shrink to a dermatologist. The psychologist will convince you your hideous mole is ok. The dermatologist will cut it off. Same illness, different approach. I could be wrong.... I haven't worked with many psychiatrists
 
MeRLin443 said:
There are fellowships in clinical pharmacology. My understanding is that they are mainly for medicine doctors, though anesthetist can enter some programs.
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In the UK, some European countries and India, clinical pharmacology is a medical speciality.
 
Now that we have nurses filling the roles of physicians (DNPs) why not allow pharmacists to get a share of our pie too? I mean they are already drug experts, just need to add some online courses to get the diagnosing part in too!
 
The OP is asking whether having MDs be pharmacists would be better for patient safety. I don't think so. Hospital pharmacists have not only gone through four years of learning the stuff we cram into one year, they have also gone through two years of residency and many of them are specialized in a particular field (ID, EM, Onc). They have an immense wealth of knowledge that physicians don't have because they just focus on drugs but they have enough training to also take the clinical context into account. I believe that patient safety is improved by having nonphysicians on the team who have different areas of focus; I've noticed that the hospital pharmacy often catches mistakes in medication orders that could be terrible for the patient. IDK that physicians turning into pharmacists would actually hurt patient safety, but it seems redundant and I can't imagine why it would help.
 
VenusinFurs said:
The OP is asking whether having MDs be pharmacists would be better for patient safety. I don't think so. Hospital pharmacists have not only gone through four years of learning the stuff we cram into one year, they have also gone through two years of residency and many of them are specialized in a particular field (ID, EM, Onc). They have an immense wealth of knowledge that physicians don't have because they just focus on drugs but they have enough training to also take the clinical context into account. I believe that patient safety is improved by having nonphysicians on the team who have different areas of focus; I've noticed that the hospital pharmacy often catches mistakes in medication orders that could be terrible for the patient. IDK that physicians turning into pharmacists would actually hurt patient safety, but it seems redundant and I can't imagine why it would help.
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what year are you?
There isnt a med student in the country who crammed pharm in 1 year and then left it. (as was already covered I believe)
 
VenusinFurs said:
The OP is asking whether having MDs be pharmacists would be better for patient safety. I don't think so. Hospital pharmacists have not only gone through four years of learning the stuff we cram into one year, they have also gone through two years of residency and many of them are specialized in a particular field (ID, EM, Onc). They have an immense wealth of knowledge that physicians don't have because they just focus on drugs but they have enough training to also take the clinical context into account. I believe that patient safety is improved by having nonphysicians on the team who have different areas of focus; I've noticed that the hospital pharmacy often catches mistakes in medication orders that could be terrible for the patient. IDK that physicians turning into pharmacists would actually hurt patient safety, but it seems redundant and I can't imagine why it would help.
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Dont confuse clinical pharmacist with clinical pharmacologists. Pharmacists are not medical doctors. And they work under the supervision of a physician. Unlike pharmacists, clinical pharmacologist are MDs, thats why they can even conduct clinical trials and many more other things independently.
 
The way I think about distinguishing doctors (sure, throw in dentists and podiatrists into this doctor "group") from other positions in the healthcare field is the emphasis on diagnosis in our training. We're the ones who are supposed to figure out what's going wrong. Pharmacists, from what I've seen, are ideally masters on dosing, interactions, side effects, etc.
 
VenusinFurs said:
The OP is asking whether having MDs be pharmacists would be better for patient safety. I don't think so. Hospital pharmacists have not only gone through four years of learning the stuff we cram into one year, they have also gone through two years of residency and many of them are specialized in a particular field (ID, EM, Onc). They have an immense wealth of knowledge that physicians don't have because they just focus on drugs but they have enough training to also take the clinical context into account. I believe that patient safety is improved by having nonphysicians on the team who have different areas of focus; I've noticed that the hospital pharmacy often catches mistakes in medication orders that could be terrible for the patient. IDK that physicians turning into pharmacists would actually hurt patient safety, but it seems redundant and I can't imagine why it would help.
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👍👍
 
The reason why Dentists/podiatrists are their own separate disciplines (while psychiatry is an MD specialization) in the US is historical accident. There isn't a rational reason. That's just the way it is.
 
michaelrack said:
The reason why Dentists/podiatrists are their own separate disciplines (while psychiatry is an MD specialization) in the US is historical accident. There isn't a rational reason. That's just the way it is.
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So you think that psychiatrists are not real doctors? Didn't they study IM, surgery, OnG and pharmacology at school like any other med students? This is very offensive and insulting...
 
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