why not internal medicine?

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BlueAvenue

I eat pre-meds
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lately I've been talking to my mom an internist about my interest in emergency medicine. I think she's a bit biased and has been trying to dissuade me from the ER. I'd like to hear the other side of the argument, why you ER residents and attendings, or med students gung ho for the ER, chose this field over one such as internal medicine. I understand that ultimately I have to make this decision for myself, and that Im not close to having to make it, but Id appreciate all who would humor me. I think EM is interesting because of the breadth of medical knowledge and the occasional trauma (after lurking on this site for awhile I can see why trauma is not nearly as romantic as most pre-meds think but Id like the chance to take part of it myself.) I just want to help people, and my mother told me hospital based internists treat sicker patients more frequently than the ER. any insight on this would be greatly appreciated. and I hope noone thinks I started this thread with the intention of starting a flame war, I recognize both specialties as extremely important to health care and give them both my respect.
 
The short answer is you do both IM and EM during med school and see which you like more. EM is a lot of time with patients, seeing new presentations and doing interventions. IM you take care of people for longer for general problems or are a subspecialist. The question is does it make you crazy to talk about the same patient for two hours and then work on them every day for a month? Would you enjoy working on the same ten diseases every day for the rest of your life? Do you get annoyed with drug seekers and drunks?

For me it comes down to rounding. Can't spent my life where I spend three hours a day talking about all my patients, even the ones who there is nothing new to talk about.
 
I was very good at IM - in fact, I thought I liked it until I did it. Then, I came to my senses (at least for me); even though I have quite the aptitude for it, it didn't work for me. And, as for "sicker" patients, it was about the same ratio as I now have in the ED - sure, there were the sick ones, but the mildly/chronically ill certainly outnumbered the ones that really challenged me. At least, in the ED, my time frame with each is much shorter, and, therefore, to me, when I get the critically ill, I get to do things, and get to see right away if it is working; I don't have to wait for a day or two.

A fellow with whom I work is EM-trained; his son just graduated from med school, and is doing anesthesiology. His son saw it from the other side (usually it's the parent NOT being EM), and didn't dig it like his dad does, so he did something else (still procedure-oriented, and dealing with the critically ill, but one at a time, and with a lot more information about the patients at the outset).

You'll hear a lot of disrespect for EM, but I really don't see it, mostly because I work with very collegial people, and had a Duke-trained cardiologist (which I didn't know at the time, as I too am a Duke grad) tell me he couldn't do my job. I took that as high praise, as I love the heart in general, but don't have what it takes to be a cardiologist.

When I'm done, I'm done. I occasionally look into patients I've seen, to see what has occurred. An especially interesting thing is after they go emergently to the cath lab - to see what vessels (if any) were blocked or stented. We go from an incomplete history to a relatively complete package - which, in a timely manner, is actually pretty admirable.

One thing I've found, which may only be coincidental or anecdotal, is that it seems the further you physically are from the ED, the intellectually further you are from the ED; people can hide on the upper floors of the hospital. In the ED, you're in the "pit", or the "fishbowl". Everybody's looking, but, also, you get to see everyone, and talk with everyone. And you're everyone's friend when you call and say, "I don't need you to come in, but I need a little advice about what to do here".
 
IM is fine, but you have to have a lot of patience. The rounding is a bit annoying at first because it is academic. As you progress of course, you can kind of set your own pace. EM is nice if you like more acuity and more of a on-off relationship with your work. There is usually a defined endpoint of when you are done working. IM is nice if you have interests in subspecialties, there aren't quite as many through EM. I am generally impressed however how quickly EM's can cut through lots of nebulous information and package a patient pretty nicely for admission. A good EM doc is gold, a bad one hurts you. So I definitely appreciate the ones who have thought about the major problems and haven't just glazed over everything, for you to hunt and root around for what is actually going on. You should be able to figure this out pretty quickly in med school, the styles are pretty different between the two.
 
While I always respected the depth of knowledge of IM, I missed the surgical, OB and pediatric aspects of medicine. That's the reason FM also appealed to me.

I found the pace of EM was better suited to me. I also don't like, at all, dealing with the social and psychosocial issues that primary care deals with every day. Imagine my surprise when I found I didn't escape it in EM!

EM doesn't have to deal with the insurance crap that primary care does. We have the benefit of being able to focus on why the patient is in our ED rather than which form we have to fill out. That being said, we deal with the fallout from that with the patients who come to us inappropriately as a result of the insurance crap.

Take care,
Jeff
 
You guys understand that your career as a hospitalist does not involve walking around with a team, presenting patients, and discussing them right? That's a pretty important fact to have in your head when making career decisions.

If you do a residency in IM and then become a PCP your residency (hospital rounds, lectures, discussing cases, interacting with consultants) will bear almost no resemblence to your practice (clinic). Same if you become a private hospitalist.

To the OP, as you approach specialty selection try not to get bogged down in what people tell you or in creating detailed lists of pros and cons. It's all about whether or not you like the medicine. You can make EM sound so sexy on paper (partially because it's sexy in real life) but I have worked with so many residents/med students who rotate through and at the end of the day just say, "yeah, it's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live here."

I recently worked with an IM resident who is rock solid. Knows how to handle sick people, can prioritize and triage tasks, a very good proceduralist all things considered, smart, hard-working. He's going to go join a practice in a small town as a primary care doc. Why? Because he likes primary care.

You find the type of medicine you like and put up with the crap. IM residents have their 5 hour Rheum consult rounds, surgery residents have 100 hour weeks in the ICU, I have 2 vaginal complaint x 3 weeks patients at 3am.
 
ditto above. Quite different, rotate in them and one will appeal.
 
I like working with kids and pregnant patients. I like getting "the first shot" at a new complaint and not finishing up something someone else started.
I don't like rounding. I don't like being on call.
 
thanks for the responses they've been extremely helpful
 
You will have a better quality of life as an ER physician. I actually interviewed for medicine residencies as well as ER residencies. I enjoyed both of them a lot, but found that IM can grow tedious. IM gives you the great opportunity to pursue an array of fellowships, but in ER you have to know a little about each of those fellowships as you see so many different cases daily. You also don't have to be a doctor 24 hours a day/7 days a week. Although some people like this, I enjoy being a doctor in the hospital and just being myself when I'm out.
 
Particularly in the case when you have a physician parent, it is all the more important to choose a specialty based on how you feel and what YOUR experiences are in medical school. You'd be foolish not to listen to what she says and try to benefit from her experiences, but don't be weighed down by her baggage. You have to make a choice that will make YOU reasonably happy and fulfilled. It doesn't matter how much she admires nephrologists...if you can't see yourself enjoying being one, then there really isn't any question, is there?

I'm not sure how familiar your mom is with modern emergency medicine if she is telling you the EM physicians do not take care of sick patients. People don't just get scooped up off the street and get brought straight to the icu. Aside from the vanishingly rare stable patient who is directly admitted to the floor, patients are evaluated in an ED before they make it into the hospital.
 
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Particularly in the case when you have a physician parent, it is all the more I
important to choose a specialty based on how you feel and what YOUR experiences are in medical school. You'd be foolish not to listen to what she says and try to benefit from her experiences, but don't be weighed down by her baggage. You have to make a choice that will make YOU reasonably happy and fulfilled. It doesn't matter how much she admires nephrologists...if you can't see yourself enjoying being one, then there really isn't any question, is there?

agree- my father was a well known neurologist. he enjoyed spending an hr with each pt and seeing a total of 5-7 pts/day. he could afford to do that.
that would drive me up the wall. after 10 min with most pts I'm looking to move on to someone else....
 
First, I would point you the the EM FAQ at the top of the page. There's a lot of good information in there. One of the reasons that comes to mind is that it houses my favorite post on SDN. I think it is the most concise list of pros/cons/realities of EM and really helped me get my thoughts into alignment as I was choosing a specialty. I went straight down the list and thought, "Hey... that sounds like me!" and did a couple away rotations and have loved it ever since (except quick turnaround overnights... 😀) I've posted the quote below...

Hope this helps.

This question is commonly posed in this forum, typically by a first or second year medical student, and sometimes by a third or even fourth year medical student. If in the early med school years, the asker is typically attempting to find their field early so they can have a muy bonito application. If asked later, the asker typically has done a few rotations and is feeling the pressure to decide on a specialty. To both types I say this: Take your time, and don't worry. You've got plenty of time to decide. That said, there are a few generalizations that can be made about people who seem to be happy going into EM. EM's strengths are important "categories" to them, and they do not mind EM's weaknesses. So compare yourself to the descriptions below to decide if EM is for you.

Strengths of EM:

1) The EP sees his profession as a job, not a calling. You will notice in your medical school class that there are those who live, eat, and sleep medicine. Those people typically do not go into EM. EPs typically have many outside interests, and are interested in a job that allows them to pursue those interests as well as medicine.
2) EPs love working up undifferentiated complaints. They got upset in their third year medicine rotations when they were told to go down to the ED and work up the guy with the COPD exacerbation. They wondered, "If I already know he has a COPD exacerbation, what's left to work up?"
3) EPs get bored easily. ADHD at its best. You can work something up as long as you like, and then when you get bored with it, you either admit it or refer it to be worked up as an outpatient.
4) EPs think a doctor-patient relationship is what you have when someone gives you a chart with a patient's name on it, not what happens after following someone's hypertension for 10 years.
5) EPs like to do procedures. They think sticking people with needles is fun. They know the truth of the statement, "There is no body cavity which can't be reached with an 18 gauge needle and a good strong arm."
6) EPs aren't afraid to make a decision on limited information.
7) EPs like to work as a team. They don't see nurses and techs as out to get them as you may see in other areas of the hospital. They know what their nurses do outside of the hospital, and nurses call them by their first names.
8) EPs like to multi-task. So many off-service residents never gain an appreciation for emergency medicine until they feel overwhelmed with 5 patients on the board for the first time, and then realize all the EM residents have 10. EPs prefer to work while they're at work.
9) EPs prefer a specialty of breadth to a specialty of depth. They enjoy learning practical information, and using common sense.
10) EPs enjoy being able to take care of people from all walks of life, rich, poor, old, young, smart, stupid, etc, without having to worry about whether they can pay you.
11) EPs typically enjoy a large percentage of their medical school rotations. They often complain about psych rotations, but all think Psychiatry is interesting, just not necessarily something they'd like to do all day. They enjoyed surgery, they enjoyed ICU, they may even have liked OB/GYN. They usually liked internal medicine, but detested rounding for hours and writing 10 page long notes.
12) EPs don't feel a sense of importance when paged to the hospital from their daughter's soccer game. (If you see this one as a weakness, you really don't belong in EM.)

Weaknesses of EM
1) EPs don't mind being criticized. They are the whipping-boy of the hospital because there is someone in the hospital who is better at nearly every individual thing that they do. Those are the people they admit their patients to. So of course those people are going to see their mistakes.
2) EPs don't mind treating drug addicts, street people, drug-seekers, uninsured patients, psychiatric patients, criminals, trauma victims, child abuse victims etc (sometimes all in the same person.) Many rotators in EM profess a dislike of treating these patients.
3) EPs don't mind working nights, weekends, and holidays when it means that they work three 4-day weeks a month.
4) EPs eat faster than any other specialty. I thought I was pretty good until I saw an attending inhale a sandwich while walking between the nursing station and the trauma bay.
5) EPs don't take it personally when they are sued. They realize it is about money, not ability.
6) EPs don't mind not being "the expert." They don't get tired of family and friends constantly asking, "I know you work in the ER, but what are you going to specialize in when you get burned out." They aren't intimidated by the fact that PAs and NPs work in EDs.

Hope this is helpful.
 
again more extremely helpful posts. my thoughts are just to do as well as I can during undergrad and to go into med school with an open mind. both fields seems incredibly rewarding and I'm reading up on combined residencies with EM/IM. Im still not convinced that its realistic to practice as a hospitalist and in the ER but I'll keep researching, maybe I'll pm KGUNNER as he seems to be the forum expert on combined residencies. thanks for all who took the time to respond! I was a little intimidated, Ive seen some pre-med threads get chewed up and spit out in record time on this site!
 
again more extremely helpful posts. my thoughts are just to do as well as I can during undergrad and to go into med school with an open mind. both fields seems incredibly rewarding and I'm reading up on combined residencies with EM/IM.

Relax. It sounds like you have 5-6 years before you have to make decisions. You'd be amazed what will happen in 5 years. You might discover that you actually like PM&R.
 
haha I know I'm not trying to plan my life out all right now, Im just the type of person who really likes to have an idea. just a general notion of what Id like to do really helps motivate me to study more and keep focus in class. otherwise I'll just think about girls and guitar and get nothing done
 
It's good to gather as much info as possible, but take it all with a grain of salt. Especially info from your parents.
Are you exactly like you mom in every way? I hope not.
So if that's the case, what interests her may have no bearing on your own life. The only way to find out about these things is to try it for yourself. Some of that opportunity will come during years 3 and 4 of med school.

I wouldn't worry about it now. Just focus on doing well in school, get in to med school, and that put in some research when the time comes.
 
You will have a better quality of life as an ER physician. . .

Actually I would dispute this or at least caution those who accept that we have a better quality of life without thinking about it critically. We work nights, at least half the shifts are likely to be evenings. You have to work holidays, you may not know you schedule until a couple of weeks before it starts and only a month at a time. Now compare that to the outpt. internist whose group has a hospitalist contract - it's regular office hours and then maybe a phone call or two at night. Hard to beat that lifestyle wise.

The benefit for us of course is that we get paid more and work fewer days in the month overall. Don't get me wrong, I like what we do, but I hear "lifestyle" touted a lot as a perk and it might not be for a lot of people.
 
Now compare that to the outpt. internist whose group has a hospitalist contract - it's regular office hours and then maybe a phone call or two at night. Hard to beat that lifestyle wise.
Uhh, some would dispute that spending 8 or more hours during the best part of the day cooped up in an outpatient clinic constitutes a good lifestyle. For those that like doing things outside, working a good share of nights is what makes the lifestyle of EM so good. Nothing beats rolling out of bed at 10am on a Tuesday to go to the local surf break and having a bunch of tasty waves all to yourself, or [substitute favorite outdoor activity here].
 
I just want to help people, and my mother told me hospital based internists treat sicker patients more frequently than the ER.
In one sense, every specialty helps people. In another sense, there are practical limitations to actually "helping people" or "making a difference" in any field of medicine.
In either IM and EM, you will get to meet patients like the diabetic who never takes their medication and is a frequent visitor to the Emergency Dept (then admitted to the hospital) due to all the complications from that. No matter what you do in the hospital or prescribe for them, in the end it really isn't going to change the ultimate outcome if they never take their medication at home. Every IM and EM doc has also probably been in the situation of having to treat a 90 year old demented nursing home patient whose family isn't ready to say goodbye so they are putting the patient through a lot of invasive and painful procedures...and then too you probably will wonder if you are truly helping anyone.

I just say this because if you pick a field you're not really interested in due to the hope of helping people, you might end up feeling let down by the reality of how these things go. I think both IM and EM are good fields for different reasons. Good luck finding your place.
 
is it naive of me to want to go into medicine to help people? I was under the impression that this was by large the typical reason but in the same conversation my mother disagreed. I asked her why she went into medicine and she said it agreed with her personality. she's extremely dedicated, very blunt, and very thorough. she also said the science of medicine has fascinated her since childhood. to answer someone's earlier question I'm a very different person from my mom. I was always drawn to medicine because I figured it was a great way to help people as I've always been overly compassionate, is this normal? my mom told me I ought to keep that to myself in medical school. and just to be fair my mother is a fantastic doctor, we're always getting calls at the house and cards from thankful patients.
 
is it naive of me to want to go into medicine to help people? I was under the impression that this was by large the typical reason but in the same conversation my mother disagreed. I asked her why she went into medicine and she said it agreed with her personality. she's extremely dedicated, very blunt, and very thorough. she also said the science of medicine has fascinated her since childhood. to answer someone's earlier question I'm a very different person from my mom. I was always drawn to medicine because I figured it was a great way to help people as I've always been overly compassionate, is this normal? my mom told me I ought to keep that to myself in medical school. and just to be fair my mother is a fantastic doctor, we're always getting calls at the house and cards from thankful patients.


My dad said he told this to his advisor in college when he was thinking about going to med school (he never did), to which his advisor responded: "Well, hookers help people too"

Honestly, the only reason to do it is if you actually like medicine as a whole and can't see yourself doing anything else
 
Actually I would dispute this or at least caution those who accept that we have a better quality of life without thinking about it critically. We work nights, at least half the shifts are likely to be evenings. You have to work holidays, you may not know you schedule until a couple of weeks before it starts and only a month at a time. Now compare that to the outpt. internist whose group has a hospitalist contract - it's regular office hours and then maybe a phone call or two at night. Hard to beat that lifestyle wise.

The benefit for us of course is that we get paid more and work fewer days in the month overall. Don't get me wrong, I like what we do, but I hear "lifestyle" touted a lot as a perk and it might not be for a lot of people.

Indeed, some hospitalist jobs are pretty cush. In alot of ways they work like ER docs. They do shifts (albeit usually longer ones), have lots of days off, work extremely hard while at work, and have no responsibilities once they sign out.

I knew one lady who's schedule was something like 2 weeks on 4 weeks off. Now those 2 weeks were pure hell -- worse than being a resident again but then she had like a month off... You can do alot of surfing or whatever you like in that time.
 
is it naive of me to want to go into medicine to help people? I was under the impression that this was by large the typical reason but in the same conversation my mother disagreed. I asked her why she went into medicine and she said it agreed with her personality. she's extremely dedicated, very blunt, and very thorough. she also said the science of medicine has fascinated her since childhood. to answer someone's earlier question I'm a very different person from my mom. I was always drawn to medicine because I figured it was a great way to help people as I've always been overly compassionate, is this normal? my mom told me I ought to keep that to myself in medical school. and just to be fair my mother is a fantastic doctor, we're always getting calls at the house and cards from thankful patients.
you went into medicine because you wanted to help people? I think you got the wrong field bud. haha no j/k. Theres more to it than that though. You can help people in any field you go into. Some more noticeable than others.
 
I know there's more to it than just that but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't my motivation to do so well in college. disease processes and modern interventions do fascinate me so I'm not doing it solely for that reason. I've made up my mind to go to medical school years ago, I figure people go into medicine for different reasons and that this isn't a bad one.
 
is it naive of me to want to go into medicine to help people?

The majority of your patients will fall into one of three categories:

(1) People who want you to help them for conditions they don't have.
(2) People who don't want you to help them for conditions they do have.
(3) People who want you to save them from themselves.

The sane patient who lives a relatively clean life and walks through your door with organic disease that happened to strike him down while merely living life is a rarity...but you're right, when you do encounter one, the practice of medicine is truly satisfying.

(Which, by the way, is why I really like working with what Samuel Shem called "gomers." Life has killed off most of the people in the first 3 categories by the time you put that many miles on the odometer.)

(Final aside: if you do ever come across a copy of the House of God, don't bother reading it. It's basically "Top Gun" set in a hospital without the interesting story line and mildly pleasing 80s soundtrack.)
 
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maybe I'm a masochist but Old_Mil your post gave me a lot of hope. at this point all other careers seem second rate, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get into medical school. I'll keep an open mind and try to see where I fit once I get there. thanks to everyone who posted, my mom gets a bit tired of my questions and thinks Im presumptuous. take care
 
I went into med school thinking i would do IM and now I am in EM. It was my first month of IM in 3rd year that made me change my mind. I hated rounding. IM was not hands on enough. A month in the ED confirmed that i had found the right fit.
 
I absolutely hate rounding and living with a beeper. Another difference: IM seems like it is concerned with making the definitive diagnosis, whereas in EM, disposition is just as important. We have to be comfortable with a good deal of uncertainty, which could be a minus.
 
lately I've been talking to my mom an internist about my interest in emergency medicine. I think she's a bit biased and has been trying to dissuade me from the ER. I'd like to hear the other side of the argument, why you ER residents and attendings, or med students gung ho for the ER, chose this field over one such as internal medicine. I understand that ultimately I have to make this decision for myself, and that Im not close to having to make it, but Id appreciate all who would humor me. I think EM is interesting because of the breadth of medical knowledge and the occasional trauma (after lurking on this site for awhile I can see why trauma is not nearly as romantic as most pre-meds think but Id like the chance to take part of it myself.) I just want to help people, and my mother told me hospital based internists treat sicker patients more frequently than the ER. any insight on this would be greatly appreciated. and I hope noone thinks I started this thread with the intention of starting a flame war, I recognize both specialties as extremely important to health care and give them both my respect.


I disagree with that statement. In the 'real world' how many general IM doctors place central lines, start sepsis protocol stuff, put folks on pressors, intubate, etc.... If its like residency, they are quick to call the ICU to come handle that jazz.

Now, on the flip side, I agree that IM tend to be the deep thinkers of it all. They are the one that figures out this guy had some obscure weird disease that I have never even heard of.

For me, I did not want the same patients over and over, I hate roaming/rounding around the hospital, I hate beepers, and I want the freedom to work as much or as little as possible, and in the end, I think EM generally makes more money.....
 
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