Why podiatrists take unpaid call (and what to do about it)

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How does one even take more than 10+ days of call a month and not burn out? Unless your hospital is 10 beds there’s no way of avoiding the dreaded diabetic foot. That crap is everywhere. Taking call is awful. I’m going to try to get call pay (they’re going to laugh) or refuse and get fired/leave

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How does one even take more than 10+ days of call a month and not burn out? Unless your hospital is 10 beds there’s no way of avoiding the dreaded diabetic foot. That crap is everywhere. Taking call is awful. I’m going to try to get call pay (they’re going to laugh) or refuse and get fired/leave
Depending on the months schedule I take 2-3 weeks of call a month at a 600 bed tertiary referral center that has employed podiatrists at all the other smaller hospitals in the system who love to dump patients on the weekend. Our list runs 10-15 deep every week. Sometimes over 20.

You get used to it because the diabetic RVUs are too hard to turn down. If you have ANY real skill you can turn an infection case into a endless supply of production. Debridements, flaps, skin grafts, ex fix, fusion for charcot, biopsies. Throw in some HBOT for job security. Consult vascular to give your vascular bros some love.

Everyone loves it. Ortho loves you because you take all the high risk fractures and charcot. General surgery loves you because you are taking all the wounds, infections and doing the amps. Vascular surgery loves you because you are throwing them business. Hospital admin loves you because you are using HBOT and most of your inpatient surgeries don't require any hardware. Your hospital based wound care center loves you because you give organic referrals that keep business in the hospital system.

Pus, charcot, wounds, infections, high risk fractures will always be podiatry. Learn it, know it, live it
 
Depending on the months schedule I take 2-3 weeks of call a month at a 600 bed tertiary referral center that has employed podiatrists at all the other smaller hospitals in the system who love to dump patients on the weekend. Our list runs 10-15 deep every week. Sometimes over 20.

You get used to it because the diabetic RVUs are too hard to turn down. If you have ANY real skill you can turn an infection case into a endless supply of production. Debridements, flaps, skin grafts, ex fix, fusion for charcot, biopsies. Throw in some HBOT for job security. Consult vascular to give your vascular bros some love.

Everyone loves it. Ortho loves you because you take all the high risk fractures and charcot. General surgery loves you because you are taking all the wounds, infections and doing the amps. Vascular surgery loves you because you are throwing them business. Hospital admin loves you because you are using HBOT and most of your inpatient surgeries don't require any hardware. Your hospital based wound care center loves you because you give organic referrals that keep business in the hospital system.

Pus, charcot, wounds, infections, high risk fractures will always be podiatry. Learn it, know it, live it
Why would anyone love these “high risk” cases in this litigious society we live in?
 
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Why would anyone love these “high risk” cases in this litigious society we live in?
You have a point. But honestly if you have the training and have enough experience with these cases you should do them if you want to make a living. A good one at that if you can do these cases.

We are supposed to be masters of the foot and ankle.

I love it when podiatrists (who can only treat foot and ankle) cherry pick pathologies then in the same breath complain they are not busy enough.
 
You have a point. But honestly if you have the training and have enough experience with these cases you should do them if you want to make a living. A good one at that if you can do these cases.

We are supposed to be masters of the foot and ankle.

I love it when podiatrists (who can only treat foot and ankle) cherry pick pathologies then in the same breath complain they are not busy enough.
Like nails and calluses.

On a more serious note - you’re spot on w the diabetic stuff. Turning down wounds and infections is nuts. Huge moneymakers. But 2-3 weeks of call at a 600 bed hospital definitely takes a certain type of person
 
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Depending on the months schedule I take 2-3 weeks of call a month at a 600 bed tertiary referral center that has employed podiatrists at all the other smaller hospitals in the system who love to dump patients on the weekend. Our list runs 10-15 deep every week. Sometimes over 20.

You get used to it because the diabetic RVUs are too hard to turn down. If you have ANY real skill you can turn an infection case into a endless supply of production. Debridements, flaps, skin grafts, ex fix, fusion for charcot, biopsies. Throw in some HBOT for job security. Consult vascular to give your vascular bros some love.

Everyone loves it. Ortho loves you because you take all the high risk fractures and charcot. General surgery loves you because you are taking all the wounds, infections and doing the amps. Vascular surgery loves you because you are throwing them business. Hospital admin loves you because you are using HBOT and most of your inpatient surgeries don't require any hardware. Your hospital based wound care center loves you because you give organic referrals that keep business in the hospital system.

Pus, charcot, wounds, infections, high risk fractures will always be podiatry. Learn it, know it, live it
Nailed it. Haters gonna hate.
Usually have between 8-12 on my list. Sometimes more. Sometimes less.

Friday:
#1 Delayed primary closure 12.04
#2 I&D leg with foot ulcer debridement 6.03
#3 Closure of surgical dehiscence (DPC) 12.04
#4 I&D to bone cortex 9.44 RVU
#5 I&D 5.28
#6 Toe amp 3.51

48.34 RVU and done by 12 (actually more like 130 because I rounded a bunch and generated about 8-10 more RVU...)

Didnt spend any mental power on anything. Simple chip chop cases.

I have 2 DPCs pending early next week depending on how they look Monday morning. So another 24 RVUs. Plus I will have a whole bunch waiting for me Monday morning when I get back to work.

Its a RVU machine.

Again 35 RVU a day is where I need to be to be absolutley comfortable and happy. Beyond that is just bonus money for more time for vacation or extra investments to hand down to my kids when I kick it.
Why would anyone love these “high risk” cases in this litigious society we live in?

Document appropriately. Do everything appropriately. Order dumb tests and cost the sytem more (like an MRI for obvious toe distal phalanx osteo). Protect yourself thru and thru. If you do this let them sue. They wont win.

I feel like youre more likely to get sued for a bunion than a 1st ray amp. I dont have any actual data to back that.

Somewhere I heard the #1 reason for a DPM to get sued is a chemical matrixectomy.

Cut a toenail wrong, they bleed, and get a toe amp is likely more of a lawsuit than "well your toe is dying and we gotta amputate. Might end up going more proximal because your circulation is not good. Im going to consult vascular to get them onboard to maximise your chances of success".
 
Nailed it. Haters gonna hate.
Usually have between 8-12 on my list. Sometimes more. Sometimes less.

Friday:
#1 Delayed primary closure 12.04
#2 I&D leg with foot ulcer debridement 6.03
#3 Closure of surgical dehiscence (DPC) 12.04
#4 I&D to bone cortex 9.44 RVU
#5 I&D 5.28
#6 Toe amp 3.51

48.34 RVU and done by 12 (actually more like 130 because I rounded a bunch and generated about 8-10 more RVU...)

Didnt spend any mental power on anything. Simple chip chop cases.

I have 2 DPCs pending early next week depending on how they look Monday morning. So another 24 RVUs. Plus I will have a whole bunch waiting for me Monday morning when I get back to work.

Its a RVU machine.

Again 35 RVU a day is where I need to be to be absolutley comfortable and happy. Beyond that is just bonus money for more time for vacation or extra investments to hand down to my kids when I kick it.


Document appropriately. Do everything appropriately. Order dumb tests and cost the sytem more (like an MRI for obvious toe distal phalanx osteo). Protect yourself thru and thru. If you do this let them sue. They wont win.

I feel like youre more likely to get sued for a bunion than a 1st ray amp. I dont have any actual data to back that.

Somewhere I heard the #1 reason for a DPM to get sued is a chemical matrixectomy.

Cut a toenail wrong, they bleed, and get a toe amp is likely more of a lawsuit than "well your toe is dying and we gotta amputate. Might end up going more proximal because your circulation is not good. Im going to consult vascular to get them onboard to maximise your chances of success".
This is the way.
 
We also don’t talk enough about the added stress that comes along with elective vs diabetic cases. I’d wager the stress of ensuring an aesthetic surgical outcome, talking them into surgery (which frankly I try not to do but I know many or most do for electives) and ultimately dealing with a more demanding/intelligent patient population creates more stress than just debriding and chopping toes.

And really at the end of the day - did those bunions and hammertoes make you more money after you factor in the globals? Not to even factor in the ethical reward of preventing limb or life loss vs just management of pain or vanity.

It’s been said before; but the pus bus is the money train
 
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We also don’t talk enough about the added stress that comes along with elective vs diabetic cases. I’d wager the stress of ensuring an aesthetic surgical outcome, talking them into surgery (which frankly I try not to do but I know many or most do for electives) and ultimately dealing with a more demanding/intelligent patient population creates more stress than just debriding and chopping toes.

And really at the end of the day - did those bunions and hammertoes make you more money after you factor in the globals? Not to even factor in the ethical reward of preventing limb or life loss vs just management of pain or vanity.

It’s been said before; but the pus bus is the money train
This 100%. I refer out cases when patients came in demanding Lapiplasty or "laser bunion", or already brought bunch of disability paperwork with them. I check their insurances, and then look at their number of allergies and mental health history. They can see the guy down the block advertising these procedures.

My intuition has been getting better over the years. Now I see almost a third of the patients I declined surgeries in the hospital for various reasons: surgical site infection, exposed plate, fracture while still healing from a fusion procedure, or just demanding pain control and then ended up with CRPS.

I talked to an Ortho spine guy not too long ago. He told me spine and foot patients are the craziest in his group. That tells you something.

Diabetic stuff isn't hard. Everyone from ID to vascular surgery is on board. You only get three levels for trial and error: toe, TMA and BKA. You can also add in the tendon transfer stuff or skin grafting from time to time. These also pay well.
 
...I feel like youre more likely to get sued for a bunion than a 1st ray amp....
Theoretically, you would think so.

The pitfall for most foot wound/amp patients - just like trauma ortho/neuro/etc or OB fetal distress or abdominal distress ER pts - is that :
  1. The surgeons often have little or no relationship or trust with them pre-op.
  2. The patient has easily objective disability/restrictions afterwards (minor or major, temp or permanent) ... their life has changed, they're often off work, they're depressed, they're angry. They frequently lose their job and/or some job options (or never had one).
The amputation folk have plenty of time to be grouchy, to look up attorneys, to get mad at the bills coming in the mail. They very often settle on disability and/or litigation as a way to try to boost their income. They have nothing to lose. It simply takes a web search or somebody mentioning to them that they know a guy who got a BKA settlement to start the wheels moving. This is the reason for those wound care questions on malpractice. There is little or no doc-patient relationship, so many patients have no second thoughts of lawsuit. This higher litigation risk, along with typically crap insurance for ER pts, is why MDs get and demand so much for call pay.
Pleeenty of attorneys are happy to take a case with easily measurable (or severe allegation) harm. Amputations or "obstetric complication" or almost anything with kids or permanent brain damages from accidents are low hanging fruits. Lawyers know this: they can use those to coax a decent settlement with those things - or even sway a jury.

Elective patients are typically more gainfully employed (had insurance to go to office, do prior auth, etc) and could theoretically have more damages if the outcome was severely bad and affected lost income (multiple revisions for a flat foot, amp from a bunion, etc). CRPS is claimed on 99% of them. However there are little or no provable damages with bunions "crooked toe" or "under-corrected nose job" or "total hip made me taller on that leg" is pretty subjective and no huge/objective disability. They usually had a fair to good relationship with the surgeon/clinic pre-op, and suits for a bad scar or a jammed first MPJ or a recur ankle OA just don't have a lot of measurable damage. It is possible a clinic pushes them over the edge post-op with poor treatment or aggro billing... no doubt.
The main reason the elective surgery suit rates are lower is necessity. Most of the elective surgery (or even clinic) people may be upset or not totally satisfied with outcomes, but they don't have any perceived necessity to sue. They are back to work, they have money, they have savings, they're busy... they will often just complain to friends or move on and/or leave a bad review. They don't need to try for a payday, and they usually don't want the time and hassle. They simply do not typically have the massive free time and financial troubles and lack of doc-patient trust of trauma/amp disability patients.

[ VA/IHS and some bubble situations like Kaiser where the same money pool paying the docs is also paying for the patient care are rare exceptions. Most typical litigation rules don't apply, settlements are capped severely, and the pts have a pretty limited set of docs/providers available. ...Those are low risk places to do limb salvage at. ]
 
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The amputation folk have plenty of time to be grouchy, to look up attorneys, to get mad at the bills coming in the mail. They very often settle on disability and/or litigation as a way to try to boost their income. They have nothing to lose. It simply takes a web search or somebody mentioning to them that they know a guy who got a BKA settlement to start the wheels moving. This is the reason for those wound care questions on malpractice. There is little or no doc-patient relationship, so many patients have no second thoughts of lawsuit. This higher litigation risk, along with typically crap insurance for ER pts, is why MDs get and demand so much for call pay.
I would also think the elective folks are more inclined to sue because most of these uncontrolled diabetics, vasculopaths, etc. who end up with amputations/wounds are usually from a lower income/education status. They lack the resources and knowledge to comprehend the concept of filing a lawsuit.
 
Theoretically, you would think so.

The pitfall for most foot wound/amp patients - just like trauma ortho/neuro/etc or OB fetal distress or abdominal distress ER pts - is that :
  1. The surgeons often have little or no relationship or trust with them pre-op.
  2. The patient has easily objective disability/restrictions afterwards (minor or major, temp or permanent) ... their life has changed, they're often off work, they're depressed, they're angry. They frequently lose their job and/or some job options (or never had one).
The amputation folk have plenty of time to be grouchy, to look up attorneys, to get mad at the bills coming in the mail. They very often settle on disability and/or litigation as a way to try to boost their income. They have nothing to lose. It simply takes a web search or somebody mentioning to them that they know a guy who got a BKA settlement to start the wheels moving. This is the reason for those wound care questions on malpractice. There is little or no doc-patient relationship, so many patients have no second thoughts of lawsuit. This higher litigation risk, along with typically crap insurance for ER pts, is why MDs get and demand so much for call pay.
Pleeenty of attorneys are happy to take a case with easily measurable (or severe allegation) harm. Amputations or "obstetric complication" or almost anything with kids or permanent brain damages from accidents are low hanging fruits. Lawyers know this: they can use those to coax a decent settlement with those things - or even sway a jury.

Elective patients are typically more gainfully employed (had insurance to go to office, do prior auth, etc) and could theoretically have more damages if the outcome was severely bad and affected lost income (multiple revisions for a flat foot, amp from a bunion, etc). CRPS is claimed on 99% of them. However there are little or no provable damages with bunions "crooked toe" or "under-corrected nose job" or "total hip made me taller on that leg" is pretty subjective and no huge/objective disability. They usually had a fair to good relationship with the surgeon/clinic pre-op, and suits for a bad scar or a jammed first MPJ or a recur ankle OA just don't have a lot of measurable damage. It is possible a clinic pushes them over the edge post-op with poor treatment or aggro billing... no doubt.
The main reason the elective surgery suit rates are lower is necessity. Most of the elective surgery (or even clinic) people may be upset or not totally satisfied with outcomes, but they don't have any perceived necessity to sue. They are back to work, they have money, they have savings, they're busy... they will often just complain to friends or move on and/or leave a bad review. They don't need to try for a payday, and they usually don't want the time and hassle. They simply do not typically have the massive free time and financial troubles and lack of doc-patient trust of trauma/amp disability patients.

[ VA/IHS and some bubble situations like Kaiser where the same money pool paying the docs is also paying for the patient care are rare exceptions. Most typical litigation rules don't apply, settlements are capped severely, and the pts have a pretty limited set of docs/providers available. ...Those are low risk places to do limb salvage at. ]
I haven’t been sued for anything yet. I did get neuroma resection notes requested by an attorney once but must have told patient he didn’t have a case because I never actually got sued. It was a revision of someone’s else’s neuroma/stump neuroma. I was younger and not sure why I took that case on.

In general I find post op care for elective much harder than diabetics.

If you follow standard protocol it’s hard to lose a lawsuit for a I&D or amp. Hospital might force to settle out of court which means “you’re guilty” on paper which would suck but as long as my documentation is complete then I’m off the hook and I sleep well.

CRPS, non union, etc I feel is more likely to sue than a person who walked on a 1st ray amp ama which turned to a tma.

I find diabetic amps to actually be very appreciative. Mostly because I tell them they’re are at risk of a leg or partial foot amputation. If they don’t get a major amp they are happy.

Or they are totally non compliant and then it’s just document and move on. I’m not at all
afraid to document non compliance because that protects me. Even if the patient reads their charts and complains I don’t care. I tell them they’re not following protocol and I document what I see.

I chart defensively. Clean precise notes. Some templates but I spend time to make sure I really protect myself with specific write ins. It takes extra time but I sleep better. My preop discussion is also extensive on risks associated with the procedure.

In the end it’s hard to be sued as long as you’re thorough, discuss risks, and chart defensively.
 
I would also think the elective folks are more inclined to sue because most of these uncontrolled diabetics, vasculopaths, etc. who end up with amputations/wounds are usually from a lower income/education status. They lack the resources and knowledge to comprehend the concept of filing a lawsuit.
Again, sounds logical... but we're painting what we hope is the case. The MD call lawsuit rates tell you all you need to know. The majority of malpractice attorneys work on contingency... as long as the case is decent and/or big settlement/damages potential.

Let me ask you this: which of the below views spending some time at attorney office and depositions to maybe get 100k or 200k or 300k as a totally life-changing outcome?
  • a 35 year old landscape crew or Dollar Tree worker making $35k/yr with no savings whose nail puncture or uncontrolled DM osteomyelitis turns BKA and they're unemployed
  • a 55 year old with high level management job $125k/yr with $1M retirement account who has to wear a boot a couple months more for a Lapidus non union
Necessity.
 
Amputations are just uber-low-hanging fruits for attorneys. The patients also have nothing but time to attorney shop, often little or no loyalty to the amp doc, and the amputees very often have strong need for money. Sad but true. This is reason #168 not to take call (unless it's paid/required podiatrist call).

The amputation is an easy and objective harm and disability which is automatically disabling (as is a birth defect, heart attack, paralysis, coma or stroke for other specialties). Amputations are attractive cases to attorneys, particularly if easy win/settlement or if amp on a young and/or high earner patient.

I normally wouldn't link to Podiatry Today, but attorneys don't publish in good F&A journals, lol. This guy does a nice job of outlining how attorneys decide to take cases (potential win amount versus potential chance/cost to get the win), how amps are often good cases, how they work for contingency/percentage, and the lawyer rationale for starting/settling a suit...

 
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Amputations are just uber-low-hanging fruits for attorneys. The patients also have nothing but time to attorney shop, often little or no loyalty to the amp doc, and the amputees very often have strong need for money. Sad but true. This is reason #168 not to take call (unless it's paid/required podiatrist call).

The amputation is an easy and objective harm and disability which is automatically disabling (as is a birth defect, heart attack, paralysis, coma or stroke for other specialties). Amputations are attractive cases to attorneys, particularly if easy win/settlement or if amp on a young and/or high earner patient.

I normally wouldn't link to Podiatry Today, but attorneys don't publish in good F&A journals, lol. This guy does a nice job of outlining how attorneys decide to take cases (potential win amount versus potential chance/cost to get the win), how amps are often good cases, how they work for contingency/percentage, and the lawyer rationale for starting/settling a suit...

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t
 

95% of malpractice cases are over elective surgeries
 
I think worrying about being sued for some foot amps is dumb, ridiculous and absurd. Beyond.
I am talking BKAs, dingus 🙂

Whether the BKA comes from gas/osteo, from PAD wound/procedure, from trauma hardware infect, from TAR, etc.... all are reasonable risk of a lawsuit.

Call is a huge frustration for PP for 100 reasons (sleep, stress, frustrations), but those patients we barely know are also a liability. It's unwise for most PP pods to take call... only exception I can see is trying to get going in an area with decent insurances (and even then, cut out the call asap once office is fairly busy). For hospital pods - even VA type, call will be almost inevitable.

(I also think this is why a lot of gen sureons / orthos don't do BKAs or pretend to be too busy to do them for pts who aren't their own... fairly easy operation, but pts will have disability and are inherently a bit of a med mal risk)
 
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