Why Teach If You HATE Students???

[78222]

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We have a guy at my school who is a grade A jackass. We we had an assigned clinical case for today and people were randomly chosen to come to the front and answer questions asked about it. The guy asking Path questions seemed to get off on belittling the students in front of our entire class (I was lucky enough not to have to present). He told one student "You have a 50% chance of sounding stupid, pick an answer", after the student had trouble answering one of his confusingly worded questions.

If you dont like teaching, or don't like students, wtf would you choose to work for a medical school?

 

[xanthines]

Unfortunately, the reality is that medical schools rarely reward good teachers. Instead they reward good researchers (with bigger offices, bigger slush funds, less teaching). In order to be promoted and get tenure you have to take on teaching responsibilities. Even when you get tenure, some departments/schools may require that you teach in some capacity or else you lose your office, lab space, slush fund, etc. Just like in "real life" good teachers are treated like crap.

So basically, this guy may be forced to teach whether he likes it or not. Clearly he does not.

-X

We have a guy at my school who is a grade A jackass. We we had an assigned clinical case for today and people were randomly chosen to come to the front and answer questions asked about it. The guy asking Path questions seemed to get off on belittling the students in front of our entire class (I was lucky enough not to have to present). He told one student "You have a 50% chance of sounding stupid, pick an answer", after the student had trouble answering one of his confusingly worded questions.

If you dont like teaching, or don't like students, wtf would you choose to work for a medical school?

 

[cbass1350]

Those who cannot do, teach

 

[Tired]

Let me offer an alternative interpretation:

Medical education, unlike traditional education, has traditionally engaged in what you might call "aggressive education" or "education through shame". Students/residents are questioned until they get an answer wrong, then are made to feel stupid for having incomplete knowledge. I believe that the purpose of this is to (1) make you remember the answer to questions that you were ridiculed for not know the answer to, and (2) shamed into studying more and more to prevent further episodes of humiliation.

Maybe it's effective, maybe it isn't, I don't know. But I do know that there are list of esoteric facts that I only remember because of a time when I was publicly humiliated for not knowing them. I think every med student and resident has stories about this.

Ask me the radiographic findings of gallstone ileus.

 

[alphaholic06]

Let me offer an alternative interpretation:

Medical education, unlike traditional education, has traditionally engaged in what you might call "aggressive education" or "education through shame". Students/residents are questioned until they get an answer wrong, then are made to feel stupid for having incomplete knowledge. I believe that the purpose of this is to (1) make you remember the answer to questions that you were ridiculed for not know the answer to, and (2) shamed into studying more and more to prevent further episodes of humiliation.

Maybe it's effective, maybe it isn't, I don't know. But I do know that there are list of esoteric facts that I only remember because of a time when I was publicly humiliated for not knowing them. I think every med student and resident has stories about this.

Ask me the radiographic findings of gallstone ileus.

Ok I'm asking

 

[78222]

Let me offer an alternative interpretation:

Medical education, unlike traditional education, has traditionally engaged in what you might call "aggressive education" or "education through shame". Students/residents are questioned until they get an answer wrong, then are made to feel stupid for having incomplete knowledge. I believe that the purpose of this is to (1) make you remember the answer to questions that you were ridiculed for not know the answer to, and (2) shamed into studying more and more to prevent further episodes of humiliation.

Maybe it's effective, maybe it isn't, I don't know. But I do know that there are list of esoteric facts that I only remember because of a time when I was publicly humiliated for not knowing them. I think every med student and resident has stories about this.

Ask me the radiographic findings of gallstone ileus.

Yeah, I agree this is the historic method of teaching Medicine, but I also don't think is effective or healthy. I remember things just as well by getting the wrong answer and feeling dumb about it without getting berated for not knowing it. Personally, and not all people are the same, if someone berates me or belittles me, I will just get pissed off about it and have negative feelings about the profession of that person. It doesn't encourage me to learn, it just makes me think "how can I have nothing to do with this person or this type of person in the future".

 

[CampUnity]

You may remember stuff if you're ridicule about it. But that takes the joy out of education. When you learn stuff or figure out how things work, you'd find some sort of joy in learning new things. Just like you were thrilled when you first learn how to drive. But if the approach to medical school is to shame the students so that they can learn, then that just makes med school miserable, consider all the stresses that we have to deal with already.

Some teacher want to teach and you can tell. One of my anatomy professors is the best ever. I was struggling with anatomy, so I kept asking him questions in lab. I felt like I was taking him back to graduate school again where he had to answer all the questions. But the guy never complains, he kept saying that "that's what we're here for." You always remember that kind of teacher. But there are teachers who don't want to teach but really teach because they have to.

You shouldn't go to class that you feel like you don't learn or that the teacher is an a-hole. I've tried studying on my own and it's pretty effective so far.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

Ok I'm asking

I believe it's pneumatobilia? Air in the biliary tract?

 

[78222]

You know, I think one thing that doesn't get enough discussion among those in Academic Medicine is "Yeah, sure it makes them learn but is it acceptable behavior?". It seems like every bit of poor treatment heaped on medical students and residents is justified by "it's necesarry to make them learn". When is the line drawn? If we were all to wear dog collars, they could zap us everytime we screw up during a pimp session, that would be sure to make us rememeber. Or as PandaBear has pointed out on his blog, not eating would give residents even more "Continuum of care".

 

[Medarca]

That's true! In my opinion they have no any right to work with people not only with student. From their way of teaching you remember nothing but only your bad mood and fear! That's not a work!

 

[Dr. McDreamy]

I had a bad attending last month who liked to humiliate the students. it was awful and at the end of the day i just wanted to do anything but study. now i have a good attending who loves teaching, doesn't try to intimidate the students and i can't wait to go home and study at the end of the day.

sure you remember what you get publicly humiliated about, but it doesn't exactly make you want to go and spend more time with the topic.

 

[MooseKing]

Those who cannot do, teach

im pretty sure medschool professors can "do" or else they wouldnt have been hired. and from what i hear they make big bux

 

[MooseKing]

Let me offer an alternative interpretation:

Medical education, unlike traditional education, has traditionally engaged in what you might call "aggressive education" or "education through shame". Students/residents are questioned until they get an answer wrong, then are made to feel stupid for having incomplete knowledge. I believe that the purpose of this is to (1) make you remember the answer to questions that you were ridiculed for not know the answer to, and (2) shamed into studying more and more to prevent further episodes of humiliation.

Maybe it's effective, maybe it isn't, I don't know. But I do know that there are list of esoteric facts that I only remember because of a time when I was publicly humiliated for not knowing them. I think every med student and resident has stories about this.

Ask me the radiographic findings of gallstone ileus.

isnt this the socratic teaching method. they teach by this method in law school too by putting you on the spot.

 

[Tired]

isnt this the socratic teaching method. they teach by this method in law school too by putting you on the spot.

The socratic method is questioning designed to guide the student to the correct answer. What I'm talking about isn't designed to guide you anywhere, it's designed to make you fail.

And yes, we can talk all day about whether or not the method is effective or whether it's "appropriate", but really, this is how our world functions. Welcome.

 

[Blade28]

It's more about the choice of going into academics versus private practice.

MANY pros of going into academics, including better schedule, residents to help manage your patients and late-night calls, more job security, (sometimes) guaranteed salary, easier referrals, etc.

CONS include lower salary, less room for advancement, and dealing with hospital politics.

 

[deleted29780]

if it wasn't for my own self belief, i would have cried a long time ago. Cos insults from lecturers are a common place in my school. i just don't let it get to me. I just keep on learning....keep pushing hard to make it as a doctor. KEEP YOUR HEAD UP. 👍

 

[Flaxmoore]

The socratic method is questioning designed to guide the student to the correct answer. What I'm talking about isn't designed to guide you anywhere, it's designed to make you fail.

And yes, we can talk all day about whether or not the method is effective or whether it's "appropriate", but really, this is how our world functions. Welcome.

It's kind of a mutant Socratic method. Where the Socratic method serves to use smaller steps to guide the student to knowledge, the medical school model opts more for going after the big answer. I freely admit I learn better via the Socratic method, which often goes like this:

Q. Explain process A (composed of 14 parts)
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, what's step 1?
A. Answer...
Q. Yes. Now what's 2?
A. Answer...

And it goes on, often getting to the process through its parts.

 

[quiltlady]

I think the nurturing teacher is an American expectation, but not a universal norm. We lived in France and the first grade teacher might be nurturing, but after that, the adversarial relationship started. By middle school, students were very suspicioius of a "nice" teacher. Teaching by humiliation was the pedagogic norm, and students were used to it.

 

[Tired]

It's kind of a mutant Socratic method. Where the Socratic method serves to use smaller steps to guide the student to knowledge, the medical school model opts more for going after the big answer. I freely admit I learn better via the Socratic method, which often goes like this:

Q. Explain process A (composed of 14 parts)
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, what's step 1?
A. Answer...
Q. Yes. Now what's 2?
A. Answer...

And it goes on, often getting to the process through its parts.

Except it usually goes more like this:

Q: Explain process A

A: <Process A explained>

Q: What are the effects on process A of complication 1?

A: <Complications explained>

Q: What are the available treatments of compication 1, and what mortality rate could you expect if these treatments are utilized?

A: <Treatments detailed, and mortality rate given>

Q: One of the treatments you discussed is an eponym, named after an obscure Belgian physician. What was his daughter's favorite toy, the Latin root of her name, and the age at which she contracted syphillis?

A: <eponym given, favorite toy named, latin root given, unable to give age>

Q: It is a sad state of affairs when our residents lack even basic knowledge about the history of medicine. Your lack of historical perspective demonstrates the shallowness of your knowledge base, and bodes poorly for your potential to be a good physician. I am disappointed that we took you in the match, and I will be suggesting that we not renew your contract next year. Now get out of my site, you are a failure as a resident and a person.

 

[hale-bopp]

If you dont like teaching, or don't like students, wtf would you choose to work for a medical school?

because you're a power hungry ego-maniac and/or a sadist and enjoy torturing medical students, because it temporarily makes you feel better about yourself. Seriously, there are clearly people who go into academic medicine because their personality disorders would keep them from succeeding in the real world where you have to get referrals/keep patients coming back at least in part from people liking you, not just being nice to you because they have to work with you and/or you're their boss. and there are also people in academic medicine because they like to torture people underneath them in the power structure (however they justify it to themselves). Fortunately, the vast majority of attendings I've worked with so far have not been of this type, but I have definitely met some.

 

[elwademd]

Seriously, there are clearly people who go into academic medicine because their personality disorders would keep them from succeeding in the real world where you have to get referrals/keep patients coming back at least in part from people liking you, not just being nice to you because they have to work with you and/or you're their boss.

academic medicine is no more and no less real then other realms of medicine and society. though the system of academic medicine may be different, it is no more or less real.

i do understand the sentiment of your statement however.